Not wishing to be provocative but....

[largo]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625015' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:29 PM']But why isn't a Jazz/Precision/Wal/Warwick/Alembic/whatever etc good enough?[/quote]

Who ever said the above makes weren't good enough? It's sometimes just about being a little bit different

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='625459' date='Oct 13 2009, 08:48 PM']Well...buying a custom bass is like making love to a beautiful woman...[/quote]

So,you're going with the women analogy again then,eh?

As far as basses go,buy whatever you want. What's most important is what
you play on it. A good player will sound good on an 'off the shelf' bass,a bad
player will still be bad on a 'custom' instrument.

[silverfoxnik]

Don't know about custom basses, but custom beards and carrots - there's a subject worthy of debate!!

[ped]

Do you guys reckon fretless basses should have lines?

[GreeneKing]

OMG don't get Steve Lawson involved again!

[philw]

I've not read all the other replies (I'm supposed to be working), so I apologise if I repeat points already made, but as an occasional owner of not inexpensive "custom" basses, a small scale distributor of the same, and sufferer of chronic unfulfilled GAS (I want a Bassline Worp now!) , I have a couple of thoughts on Bilbo's entertainingly provocative post.

In an Stepford Wives kind of world where bass guitars are just machines and bass players simple automatons (the way we sometimes wish drummers were), Bilbo would be absolutely right. There would be no point in specifying an instrument that more than got the basic job done or cost more than was absolutely necessary. But thankfully it's not a Stepford world we live in (thankfully, except for the automaton drummer thing) and for many, a bass is far more than just notes and tone. It's the whole package of ergonomics, aesthetics, tone, vibe, feel, history, and yes, even ego. A beautiful bass, whether the beauty is heard or seen or felt or just imagined, is a deeply personal experience, and even thought the rational human in me knows an entry level Vintage or Dean or Squire or No Name with a decent setup and decent strings would likely not much compromise my abilities as a bass player, there's no way it would press the same emotional buttons as does my Wal. And emotional buttons are controls inherent to making music.

Phil

PS. Cliché Alert! What's the point of an Aston Martin when a Ford Focus can get you from A to B just as quickly?

[sdgrsr400]

These are typically less than £1500. I rest my case.

[Raggy]

I dont really care and I dont think it matters. If you want one 'ave it, if you don't, don't. Simples.

[7string]

Wasn't this same question asked not that long ago?

Players find a bass they want to play and they play it. Some get lucky and find [i]the[/i] bass that suits them first time around. Some might trade or buy something else until they get something they're happy with and so the cycle goes on. Then you might want to add another instrument as a spare for a gig or buy a different kind of bass.

At some point some players might want a bass which comes from a certain maker. Whether than it 'custom' or 'off the peg' isn't the point. If a player wants a certain bass and they can afford it, then they put an order in and wait for the instrument to arrive.

If a bassist wants a certain bass and it happens to be tagged as 'custom' then who cares. It's a personal choice and the reasons for buying any bass are personal (if not understandable).

[Pete Academy]

I'll make this point again:

I was looking to replace my Tobias Classic 5. I looked at the spec of an Ibanez BTB - same pickups and actives, exotic woods. Much cheaper, so I bought one.

On stage it sounded nothing like the Tobias, and it didn't inspire me one bit. Instead, it just frustrated me.

And yes, there is a difference in the sound of different woods.

[Doctor J]

I went with a custom build because I couldn't find an off-the-shelf 5 string with the pickups (Q-Tuners) and pre-amp (Noll TCM3) in the colour (trans green) which I wanted. I didn't want to go through the time and expense of buying an off the shelf bass and butchering it to fit, so custom was the only option. Had that setup been available by a bespoke vendor I surely would have gone with them, I'm not a fan of spending more money than I have to, but The Man doesn't care what I want. As I see it, it's the fault of Fender et al for not accomodating their potential customers needs and I was left with no choice but to take to the back streets and engage a shady custom builder. Shame on them all, says I.

[Bilbo]

In spite of the various suggestions about my motives, my point has always been that the bass you buy off the shelf may feel or sound a little 'better' than another instrument, but, if you spend more than an quarter of an hour with any professional standard model, you will begin to learn how to get teh best out of it. In my simple universe, any one of the 8 tone controls on my Eden amp has the power to influence my sound far more than the wood that my bass is made of. And that is before you get into high ceilings, concrete floors, tiles vs carpets and crap cymbals. I am a great believer in working with the tools you have to make your sound as good as it can be and not in acquiring more tools in an effort to 'buy' the sound you want (unless, of course, its a specific effect like a chorus or delay etc).

The 'why not buy a Squier' argument is as provocative as my original post. There is a bottom line here and the quality of a bass is bound to be affected by universally poor quality materials but, IMO, if the core of the instrument is of a certain standard, you should be able to make it work. There are hundreds of examples of great musicians making marvellous music with relatively cheap gear.

And a small point to note. If an issue has been debated before, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be revisited. I have never discussed this issue before, as far as I can recall, so I reserve the right to raise it here and to engage in an identical debate to the ones which have already been rehearsed. If you have exhausted the debate in your own mind, then go start another thread on something you are currently mulling over and leave those that want to discuss this particular issue to do so in peace.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625765' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:03 AM']In my simple universe, any one of the 8 tone controls on my Eden amp has the power to influence my sound far more than the wood that my bass is made of.[/quote]

But your universe is too simple - EQ cannot change the envelope of a note, if it could you could EQ an electric bass to sound just like a double bass.

Alex

[Sibob]

My intellectual beef is still that you play a hand-built, (comparatively) fancy wood fretless, and you're asking why people bother with custom basses!? .
You ordered a Wal surely for one of these reasons:
1) You couldn't find a bass that had the fit/feel from a production-line instrument
2) The Wal offered parts/features and a sound that wasn't available anywhere else.

Surely both of these reasons are why other people choose to go 'custom'?!

And I'm still asking you what you believe to be 'Custom', because seeing as Wal and Alembic aren't, I'm assuming it also rules out Sei, ACG etc etc because they offer standard models!?

Si

[ZMech]

This point may have been made already, and if so I apologise.
I've always wondered how much of buying a super expensive bass is just a placebo effect, in that you expect it to sound and feel better, therefore it does so. It would be interesting to do some blind testing of different bass tones at a bass bash to see how much difference there really is, and whether people can hear the price difference or not.

[chris_b]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625765' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:03 AM']....There is a bottom line here and the quality of a bass is bound to be affected by universally poor quality materials but, IMO, if the core of the instrument is of a certain standard, you should be able to make it work. There are hundreds of examples of great musicians making marvellous music with relatively cheap gear....[/quote]
You, anyone, can make a cheap bass "work". BUT, it's possible and easier to make a good or great bass "work" even better. We all know that so what are we discussing?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Sibob' post='625783' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:20 AM']My intellectual beef is till that you play a hand-built, (comparatively) fancy wood fretless, and you're asking why people bother with custom basses!? .
You ordered a Wal surely for one of these reasons:
1) You couldn't find a bass that had the fit/feel from a production-line instrument
2) The Wal offered parts/features and a sound that wasn't available anywhere else.[/quote]

I bought it because it was a professional standard instrument with a good reputation and I tried a couple of stock instruments and liked them. At that time I hadn't tried Alembics or Fenders or Gibsons or any other professional ranges. I had only played the local basses you find in local shops. Hondo, Aria Pro II etc. The Wals were probably the first proper grown up basses I had ever played. The points you list above had absolutely no part to play in my decision whatsoever. Remember, this was 1986 and I lived in Cwmbran in Gwent. There wasn't even a train to Cardiff then! The range of choices available to a 20 year old that couldn't drive at that time was very limited.

[quote name='Sibob' post='625783' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:20 AM']And I'm still asking you what you believe to be 'Custom', because seeing as Wal and Alembic aren't, I'm assuming it also rules out Sei, ACG etc etc because they offer standard models!? [/quote]

Absolutely. If someone goes into The Gallery and buys a Sei off the wall, even if the bass was originally put together as a complete custom job, the 'new' owner is buying 'off the peg' i.e. taking a credible professional instrument 'as is' and making it work for him/her. If its handbuilt, fine. If its machine built, fine. Its all academic. The aspect of all of this that I am 'challenging' is the practice of individuals specifying the minutiae of a new build to their own exacting standards vs just getting a great instrument and spending some quality time with it in order to make it sing. My Wal could have been built by magic gnomes from fairyland for all I care but the bass I bought in 1986 is the one I play today. The only changes are strings and batteries and one set up 8 years ago (the intonation had slipped). Its the practising that makes its play good, not the mahogany.

[Rich]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625765' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:03 AM']And a small point to note. If an issue has been debated before, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be revisited. I have never discussed this issue before, as far as I can recall, so I reserve the right to raise it here and to engage in an identical debate to the ones which have already been rehearsed. If you have exhausted the debate in your own mind, then go start another thread on something you are currently mulling over and leave those that want to discuss this particular issue to do so in peace.[/quote]
OK. Well in that case, look out for my forthcoming brand new threads on playing whilst singing, whether jazz is any good or not, vegetarians, which is best out of a Jazz or a Precision, Jade Goody, strap length, slapping, football, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...

[Rich]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625823' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:11 AM']The aspect of all of this that I am 'challenging' is the practice of individuals specifying the minutiae of a new build to their own exacting standards vs just getting a great instrument and spending some quality time with it in order to make it sing.[/quote]
I could just as easily challenge your decision to buy a Wal or grow a beard. It's individual taste, isn't it? What's wrong with that?

[Bilbo]

There's nothing wrong with any of this. I am just trying to save people a lot of hassle chasing things thay probably already have.

'The main problem with finding your own path is in recognising that you are already on it' - Mick Goodrick

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Rich' post='625828' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:17 AM']OK. Well in that case, look out for my forthcoming brand new threads on playing whilst singing, whether jazz is any good or not, vegetarians, which is best out of a Jazz or a Precision, Jade Goody, strap length, slapping, football, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...
[/quote]

You also need a "Mac vs PC" thread and a "Has anyone seen BigBeefChief" thread.

S.P.

[NJE]

[quote name='Doddy' post='625528' date='Oct 13 2009, 10:04 PM']So,you're going with the women analogy again then,eh?

As far as basses go,buy whatever you want. What's most important is what
you play on it. A good player will sound good on an 'off the shelf' bass,a bad
player will still be bad on a 'custom' instrument.[/quote]



Very true, I recently made a £2.5k Nordy 5 String sound completely aweful, cant blame the wood combination for that, it was all me! At the same time there was a very talented bass player making my Squier Deluxe V sound awesome, even with no EQ on the amp and and all controls bypassed on the internal pre. I think a huge proportion of a sound is in the hands.

[Sibob]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you in principle...I play pretty much stock basses, with only one of my Jazzes having a custom neck. At the time I couldn't find a neck with the spec I wanted for the the project, and so the couple of small tweaks I wanted were coupled with an aesthetic that I wouldn't have gotten from similar priced off the peg options.

I think a lot of it is aesthetics over 'tone', which is fine. If looks didn't matter, we'd all still be playing 60's inspired Jazz basses with varying pimped out electronics for our individual needs.

I'd actually be very interested to know, and obviously I don't want this to happen, if your Wal suddenly became unavailable forever, what you would end up playing? . If you couldn't find another Wal, you wouldn't have a bass made to the same spec?!

Si

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Sibob' post='625838' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:25 AM']I'd actually be very interested to know, and obviously I don't want this to happen, if your Wal suddenly became unavailable forever, what you would end up playing? . If you couldn't find another Wal, you wouldn't have a bass made to the same spec?![/quote]

I'd go to somewhere like The Gallery, knob about for 2 or 3 hours and make a decision. My only 'must have' would be the fretless thing. But, yes, I would look for a Wal as a default position and start there. But, equally, if someone said here is another bass that sounds good, I would be cool with that. I would not go for a custom build because I couldn't be bothered with the wait and, to be blunt, wouldn't know what to ask for. If I lost my bass and had no money I would play whatever I could beg or borrow (I wouldn't steal one).

I spoke to Martin 'Sei' Peterson at The Gallery once and he made reference to the 'old' technology used in the Wal pick-ups as opposed to the 'new' technology used in Sei's. Like I give a rat's... If it sounds good, it is (I would play a Sei if it sounded good). The technology is unimportant; its the sound that matters. Even the feel of the neck only matters to me for about 10 minutes

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Sibob' post='625838' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:25 AM']If looks didn't matter, we'd all still be playing 60's inspired Jazz basses with varying pimped out electronics for our individual needs.[/quote]

Some of us 'almost' do. My main bass has a jazz(ish) shaped neck and ergonomic body with 18v preamp. It's just made by Peavey and costs a lot less than an F.