Not wishing to be provocative but....

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='626761' date='Oct 15 2009, 10:56 AM']Okay, so what you're trying to say is:

"If I, Bilbo, were to buy a custom bass, it would be for predominantly aesthetic reasons. I refuse to accept that other people may feel differently."[/quote]

Actually, if you want the truth, I think that most people (myself included) operate on a multitude of levels and do many of the things they do for reasons that are different from what they THINK they do them for. Its called 'justification' - not a literal meaning of the word but a psychological phenomenon that allows people to apparently rationally talk themselves into doing things they want to do or into not doing things they don't want to do. At its most extreme, it allows people to kill each other but it also allows people to, for instance, talk themselves out of doing things that have value (e.g. 'I don't have to learn to read music', 'I can get by without learning any theory' - all the arguments are rational but what are the motivations? That's another debate, obviously). My approach to things is to keep questioning them over and over again in an effort to find out what motivates but also what hinders my progress as a musician and as a human being - i.e. recognising my own justifications and deviant behaviours. Like most people, I get GAS. I look at the magazines and the pictures here and see all these lovely instruments and covet them, same as others do. I can justify anything, even £16K on an Alembic but, when I keep asking myself why do I want this? why do I want that? and when I keep digging and digging into what motivates that desire, I eventually realise that what I really want is nothing more than to be a better musician not to have a better bass/amp. So, instead of spending money and time on the tools, I spend it on acquiring the skills, knoiwledge and experience I need to excel.

My mischievious thread is not, therefore, an attempt to be critical of those that do what they do to get these fantastic instruments built but to give others the opportunity to process the thoughts, feelings and emotions that drive people to want them. If someone has a genuinely objective reason for doing some of these things (ergonomics is one), who am I to censure them? But I genuinely believe that at least some of the people who go down this route are trying to buy themselves out of problems that are only solved by long term study and investment in their PLAYING not their gear. The fact that as many of these bespoke instruments get resold as get commisssioned has to be confirmation of the fact.

PS Anthony Jackson rocks, whatever bass he plays.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='626797' date='Oct 15 2009, 11:43 AM']Ask a boy racer with his Nova what is the best thing to do to his car to enable him to go faster ?
He will probably reply, 'induction kit' , 'performance exhaust' , 'low profile tyres' when in reality the first performance mod to make any car go faster is in fact uprated brakes.......food for thought ![/quote]
And suspension. Kids can't corner, kids can only think in straight lines

As far as this custom thing goes, for me it's a red herring. There are SO many variables that if you wanted the perfect bass for your preferences it would have to be based on an istrument you've already played and loved - so why didn't you buy that one in the first place? I had a bash on a custom Shuker last weekend, the owner adores it, I didn't like it at all, it felt all wrong for me although it was a superbly built bass. I also had a go on an old £75 Kay NT, it actually felt better for me than the Shuker.

I agree with Bilbo, it's mainly aesthetic reasons, and the personal approach. Cool. I'll stick with my Warwicks, still the best basses I've ever played, in all respects. Apart from the Just-a-Nut II on my $$ which is the worst designed nut I have ever come across, complete crap.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625823' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:11 AM']...If someone goes into The Gallery and buys a Sei off the wall, even if the bass was originally put together as a complete custom job, the 'new' owner is buying 'off the peg' i.e. taking a credible professional instrument 'as is' and making it work for him/her. If its handbuilt, fine. If its machine built, fine. Its all academic. The aspect of all of this that I am 'challenging' is the practice of individuals specifying the minutiae of a new build to their own exacting standards vs just getting a great instrument and spending some quality time with it in order to make it sing...[/quote]

Right.
So if someone plays a given instrument, no matter what it's origin / specification, and they like it (and buy it), then that's acceptable because it's a known quantity and they've played it.
Is the issue at stake here "paying (lots) for the unknown"?
That's the black and white interpretation.
What of the shades of grey in between;

Taking a stock instrument and modifying it to your preference (bridges, pick-ups, tuners, pre-amps)
Ordering modified versions of standard instruments (I specified my Status without front-face fretboard dots and with series/parallel switching)

Neither come with satisfaction guaranteed, yet many of us enagage in such practices, and do so because no standard instrument exists to cater for our needs.
Some players may well understand (from experience) what modifications will bring the about changes in tone/playablity that would improve a given instrument to their taste. How does that differ dramatically from someone specifying those elements in a bespoke instrument?

[Sibob]

I'm still waiting for you to take up my Bronco challenge .

The thing is, even once you get down to the details, it's still immensly subjective. If you take the whole want/craving thing to it's conclusion, we'd be living as Buddhist monks. The meditation on, and realisation of the roots of 'craving' is the first chapter in many Buddhist texts. Similarly this means that your 'craving' to be a better musician, comes from the same place as GAS.
So like I said, nothing actually matters (the line between Buddhism and Nihilism is a often debated), and the only way of differentiating what is more important is subjective opinion.

Si

[xilddx]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626804' date='Oct 15 2009, 11:52 AM']Actually, if you want the truth, I think that most people (myself included) operate on a multitude of levels and do many of the things they do for reasons that are different from what they THINK they do them for. Its called 'justification' - not a literal meaning of the word but a psychological phenomenon that allows people to apparently rationally talk themselves into doing things they want to do or into not doing things they don't want to do. At its most extreme, it allows people to kill each other but it also allows people to, for instance, talk themselves out of doing things that have value (e.g. 'I don't have to learn to read music', 'I can get by without learning any theory' - all the arguments are rational but what are the motivations? That's another debate, obviously). My approach to things is to keep questioning them over and over again in an effort to find out what motivates but also what hinders my progress as a musician and as a human being - i.e. recognising my own justifications and deviant behaviours. Like most people, I get GAS. I look at the magazines and the pictures here and see all these lovely instruments and covet them, same as others do. I can justify anything, even £16K on an Alembic but, when I keep asking myself why do I want this? why do I want that? and when I keep digging and digging into what motivates that desire, I eventually realise that what I really want is nothing more than to be a better musician not to have a better bass/amp. So, instead of spending money and time on the tools, I spend it on acquiring the skills, knoiwledge and experience I need to excel.

My mischievious thread is not, therefore, an attempt to be critical of those that do what they do to get these fantastic instruments built but to give others the opportunity to process the thoughts, feelings and emotions that drive people to want them. If someone has a genuinely objective reason for doing some of these things (ergonomics is one), who am I to censure them? But I genuinely believe that at least some of the people who go down this route are trying to buy themselves out of problems that are only solved by long term study and investment in their PLAYING not their gear. The fact that as many of these bespoke instruments get resold as get commisssioned has to be confirmation of the fact.

PS Anthony Jackson rocks, whatever bass he plays.[/quote]

It's a perfectly put point Bilbo. I won't say which bass, but there is a bass for sale here that I absolutely went mad for, I could not stop thinking about it for days, thinking of letting go treasured possessions to finance a purchase. I contacted the seller and I was disappointed with their lack of clarity and lack of answers to questions and the way the sale was being handled. It put me right off and I totally lost my GAS and my justifications for the purchase. The treasured guitar I considered selling is still for sale because this event changed my justifications for treasuring it. My so called treasured possessions became objectified and I see things differently now.

[Doctor J]

Didn't they try that whole thing where everyone just makes do with what's there and no-one aspires to anything different? What was it called again? Oh yeah, Communism.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='626816' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:06 PM']Didn't they try that whole thing where everyone just makes do with what's there and no-one aspires to anything different? What was it called again? Oh yeah, Communism.[/quote]
Think you may have posted this in the wrong thread?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='626816' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:06 PM']Didn't they try that whole thing where everyone just makes do with what's there and no-one aspires to anything different? What was it called again? Oh yeah, Communism.[/quote]

That's an interesting definition of Communism. You wouldn't favour capitalism, would you? Maybe?

[xilddx]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626834' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:28 PM']That's an interesting definition of Communism. You wouldn't favour capitalism, would you? Maybe? [/quote]
I think it's a definition of Stevenage.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Sibob' post='626811' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:02 PM']I'm still waiting for you to take up my Bronco challenge .

The thing is, even once you get down to the details, it's still immensly subjective. If you take the whole want/craving thing to it's conclusion, we'd be living as Buddhist monks. The meditation on, and realisation of the roots of 'craving' is the first chapter in many Buddhist texts. Similarly this means that your 'craving' to be a better musician, comes from the same place as GAS.
So like I said, nothing actually matters (the line between Buddhism and Nihilism is a often debated), and the only way of differentiating what is more important is subjective opinion.[/quote]

You are, of course, completely correct. Which is why I ask that all of this is taken in the spirit in which it is intended - as part of a journey and not as a destination.

[Rich]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626838' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:31 PM']You are, of course, completely correct. Which is why I ask that all of this is taken in the spirit in which it is intended - as part of a journey and not as a destination.[/quote]
If it's part of a journey, to be honest it's starting to feel like the bit where I get pulled over by the police and told to explain exactly why I'm driving a Caterham rather than an Escort.

I can't be arsed with this any more. I refuse to justify what I did with my own money. Yes you'll probably say that you're not asking me to justify anything, well soz mate but that's how it feels. You probably think I've wasted time and cash, well that's fine. You carry on thinking that. Just stop expecting me to accept it.

[xilddx]

Mods fighting eachother? Whatever next?

EDIT: No Rockers jokes please.

Edited October 15, 2009 by silddx

[Rich]

S'ok, we still agree on lots of things. The coolness of jazz and the dubiousness of Dood's hair'style', to name but two.

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='626762' date='Oct 15 2009, 10:59 AM']I think this is where the difference is- a lot of people like (or think they like?) chopping and changing gear, whereas for Bilbo its all about the music, and the gear is very much secondary to that. To you (and a lot of other people) that is part of the fun but not necessarily everyone.[/quote]


True, however i think if that Wal hadn't been available at the time then Bilbo would have gone through a few more basses in that 20-odd year gap.
If he were to play a bass he preferred to his Wal today there's a chance he'd buy it

I don't chop and change my rig, I've only really gigged with 2 basses and 2 amps (although the Hartke rig was upgraded gradually before i sold it).
If i find something that improves my sound straight away then i think about making the purchase. The Zoot i own gives me the freedom to play different techniques live because it's a brilliantly designed and emminently playable instrument, Bilbo's Wal is in the same category so i don't think he's ever found any shortcomings in his bass which he couldn't work around with technique. It suits him down to the ground

Alexclaber found several shortcomings in basses he owned, knew exactly what he wanted and took the steps to ensure he had an instrument which suited him.

That's the difference between changing gear for the sake of it and upgrading because of a specific purpose. If you're amp is too quiet you get a louder one!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='626860' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:55 PM']Alexclaber found several shortcomings in basses he owned, knew exactly what he wanted and took the steps to ensure he had an instrument which suited him.[/quote]

Just the one bass actually! My bass history is:

1996-1999 Hohner Jack
1999-2008 Warwick Streamer
2008 onwards RIM Custom 5

I also played essentially the same bass rig from 1999-2008 (and then I started building my own cabs to improve upon what I'd had before, again because no manufacturer built what I wanted).

I don't think the aesthetic issue should be overlooked - what if your favourite bass is in some hideous shade of pink with a pointy headstock (you bought it when you played hair metal) but you're too embarrassed to be seen out with it now that you're in an old school funk band, yet every production bass you've tried didn't live up to the tone or feeling of it. Why not get a luthier to make you a bass that retains the sound and feel but doesn't look like an '80s nightmare?

Here's another way to look at it - if you are going to spend £1k+ on an instrument, why wouldn't you want to give that to a local craftsmen instead of splitting it between a shop, a distributor, a few freight companies, a manufacturer, their shareholders, and finally some for the people in the factory that made it? It's not like choosing between a handmade kitchen and a mass-produced one - as long as you go for a luthier that doesn't have a great long waiting list and a famous brand you get awesome value for money.

Alex

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625015' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:29 PM']why isn't a Jazz/Precision/Wal/Warwick/Alembic/whatever etc good enough?

Double bass players tend to get a bass and stick to it (Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Marc Johnson, Scott LaFaro, Mingus etc all played one bass through most of their careers and only replaced them if they were damaged or stolen). Same with sax players, trumpeters etc. Many pianists play a different instrument every night. So what's it all about, peeps?[/quote]

1. Double basses cost a huge amount of money - you normally check you have the right one for you and then stick to it. It's also a quiet, muffled and indistinct instrument (even though I love it).
2. A piano is a piano - a lot of pianists complain about the keys on unweighted and semi-weighted keyboard instruments. They also don't have to carry theirs from gig to gig on their back.
3. Sax players are some of the fussiest I've ever seen when it comes to particular reeds/mouthpieces etc - an old bandmate of mine GASed for a Selmer Mark VI and a Michael Brecker mouthpiece.

There are three reasons I'd go custom:
1. aesthetics - I can't find a walnut Jazz with bullet truss rod, rosewood 'board, white blocks/binding
2. tone - I want to take advantage of Delano's Hybrid pick-up system, which combines a J and MM pick-up in the same unit
3. scale length/tuning - for the Doom side project, the band would like me to tune down to a low A (ie. a tone below low B ), but I'd still like to be able to play a traditional looking 4 string, so a 35" or 36" custom bass seems like the best option.

Edited October 15, 2009 by The Funk

[Prosebass]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='626910' date='Oct 15 2009, 01:45 PM']Here's another way to look at it - if you are going to spend £1k+ on an instrument, why wouldn't you want to give that to a local craftsmen instead of splitting it between a shop, a distributor, a few freight companies, a manufacturer, their shareholders, and finally some for the people in the factory that made it? It's not like choosing between a handmade kitchen and a mass-produced one - as long as you go for a luthier that doesn't have a great long waiting list and a famous brand you get awesome value for money.

Alex[/quote]

Well said young man.....

[Doddy]

I'm kind of sitting in the middle of both sides of the argument.
I can understand why some people choose to go the custom route. I believe that the major
reason is the added confidence that the player gets from the instrument. You have a nice
instrument and feel more inspired to play it.
But...I also think that what you do with the instrument is the most important thing. The music
you make is,ultimately, the most important thing.

I'd Happily take on Sibob's Bronco challenge if Bilbo won't.

[4000]

[quote name='Sibob' post='626811' date='Oct 15 2009, 12:02 PM']I'm still waiting for you to take up my Bronco challenge .

The thing is, even once you get down to the details, it's still immensly subjective. If you take the whole want/craving thing to it's conclusion, we'd be living as Buddhist monks. The meditation on, and realisation of the roots of 'craving' is the first chapter in many Buddhist texts. Similarly this means that your 'craving' to be a better musician, comes from the same place as GAS.
So like I said, nothing actually matters (the line between Buddhism and Nihilism is a often debated), and the only way of differentiating what is more important is subjective opinion.

Si[/quote]

+1 (again).

In addition, and following Alex's line of thought, I've twice given money to a man I greatly respect and like both as a luthier and a person (stand up Mr Petersen) so that he will build me a beautiful, functional work of art (I've also twice paid for used pieces of his art). It's given me great joy, and hopefully in some small way has helped to keep him doing the thing he does best. Win win? I think so. Would I do it again? Absolutely. The experience is a journey in itself, and I just happen to love travelling.

Edited October 15, 2009 by 4000

[4000]

Actually one question I'd like to ask Bilbo (not specifically relating to custom basses but potentially pertinent to some of the issues that have arisen) is does he play the same way on every instrument he picks up, therefore imposing his style, sound and note choices on the instrument in question, or does he adapt his playing to suit the individual instruments strengths? Steve Howe has been quoted as saying every instrument makes him think a little differently, and I tend to feel the same. Many lines that work sonically on my Seis just don't work on my Ricks, and vice versa, and the feel and response of the instrument is also something that affects what I am likely to play on it.

[7string]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626804' date='Oct 15 2009, 11:52 AM']I genuinely believe that at least some of the people who go down this route are trying to buy themselves out of problems that are only solved by long term study and investment in their PLAYING not their gear. The fact that as many of these bespoke instruments get resold as get commisssioned has to be confirmation of the fact.[/quote]

There must be people who think that a better bass will make them into a better. I knew people who spent huge amounts of money on the latest golf clubs in order to improve their game. The only thing that makes you better is practice, there is no "magic bullet".

However, saying that as many instruments get resold because their owners playing did not improve is a bit of a shot in the dark. I would say that anyone selling an instrument which they had built for them isn't doing so lightly (because they waited for the build and paid for it) and the reason may be anything from needing to sell from a financial standpoint to having to have a different kind of bass for a gig.

There could even be a kind of reverse-snobbery, with some players thinking that they don't need a custom bass because my playing will speak for me ("Jaco only needed a Fender Jazz" syndrome). Mind you, could you see players selling their Foderas and Sadowskys etc., because a new Fender P or J would work just as well??

IMO, having a bass built is no different from buying a new bass in a shop. You try, you think, you look at your bank balance, think some more before eventually coming to a decision that's right for you as a player at that time. Also, if you include vintage instruments and sought after luthiers (Fodera again, sorry) , custom basses aren't necessarily the most expensive option.

What custom basses do give you is choice over specification. If you like the design, materials etc and you feel an empathy with the luthier then why not order one. Surely buying a bass which is in a shop, in your hands and within your budget (because you've haggled well) is the easier option of the two.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='626929' date='Oct 15 2009, 02:05 PM']1. Double basses cost a huge amount of money - you normally check you have the right one for you and then stick to it. It's also a quiet, muffled and indistinct instrument (even though I love it).[/quote]

Isn't that the point? They spend a lot of money on a professional standard instrument and then mould themselves to its individual personality and find the instruments own voice. DB players don't buy and sell with the frequency of electric players. And its not always true that they spend a lot. I have come across many DB players whose instruments were not that expensive and they stick with it. Classical bassists spend 10s of thousands on their instruments but jazzers can spend relatively small change (£45 in one case, £0 in another!!). Jazz instruments are chosen for their idiosyncracies and not their purity. DId you also know that Ron Carter uses hired instruments when he gigs out of the US? Different one every night.

[quote name='The Funk' post='626929' date='Oct 15 2009, 02:05 PM']2. A piano is a piano - a lot of pianists complain about the keys on unweighted and semi-weighted keyboard instruments. They also don't have to carry theirs from gig to gig on their back[/quote]

I doubt many piano specialists would agree - there are good pianos and bad pianos but the pianst just gets on with it.

[quote name='The Funk' post='626929' date='Oct 15 2009, 02:05 PM']3. Sax players are some of the fussiest I've ever seen when it comes to particular reeds/mouthpieces etc - an old bandmate of mine GASed for a Selmer Mark VI and a Michael Brecker mouthpiece.[/quote]

That's no different than someone agonising over string guages. Reeds are funny things. Unlike a box of, say plectrums, many sax players go through a new box of reeds and throw half of them away as unusable. Mouthpieces are again a specific interface with the instrument. The instrument itself remains 'off the peg'. Either way, most sax players I know are nowhere near as fickle as bassists or guitarists about their gear.

[quote name='The Funk' post='626929' date='Oct 15 2009, 02:05 PM']There are three reasons I'd go custom:
1. aesthetics - I can't find a walnut Jazz with bullet truss rod, rosewood 'board, white blocks/binding
2. tone - I want to take advantage of Delano's Hybrid pick-up system, which combines a J and MM pick-up in the same unit
3. scale length/tuning - for the Doom side project, the band would like me to tune down to a low A (ie. a tone below low B ), but I'd still like to be able to play a traditional looking 4 string, so a 35" or 36" custom bass seems like the best option.[/quote]

The first two are dubious, IUAM, but the third is entirely defensible. If the music requires a modification, it requires a modification. Horses for courses. Most music doesn't.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='4000' post='627386' date='Oct 15 2009, 09:56 PM']Actually one question I'd like to ask Bilbo (not specifically relating to custom basses but potentially pertinent to some of the issues that have arisen) is does he play the same way on every instrument he picks up, therefore imposing his style, sound and note choices on the instrument in question, or does he adapt his playing to suit the individual instruments strengths? Steve Howe has been quoted as saying every instrument makes him think a little differently, and I tend to feel the same. Many lines that work sonically on my Seis just don't work on my Ricks, and vice versa, and the feel and response of the instrument is also something that affects what I am likely to play on it.[/quote]

I suspect it is a bit of both. I approach different instruments the same but am likely to have to make miniscule adjustments to accommodate stuff like string spacing, neck profile, body shape. WIther way, the adjustment would take minutes for most playing and hours for more sophisticated techniques. IN reality, I play another bass about once a year for 10 minutes.

I actually think that the quality of your amp is for more central to the sound than the wood your bass is made of. This applies to all sound reinforcement. Guitars and keyboards through cheap amps are just as bad a basses.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='628026' date='Oct 16 2009, 04:07 PM']Isn't that the point? They spend a lot of money on a professional standard instrument and then mould themselves to its individual personality and find the instruments own voice. DB players don't buy and sell with the frequency of electric players.[/quote]
That's not really a valid comparison, in my opinion, as the sound from double basses doesn't come from electronics, it's the sound of the wood and what you hear at first is largely the way it is and always will be. Not so with electric instruments, there are many, many more options and combinations to try before one can say they've found the package (wood, electronics, hardware, ergonomics and styling) which suits them best. Why mould yourself to something when there is something out there which might fit just right first time, you just need to find it. You won't find it if you don't look and if you don't find it, well maybe someone can build it. What is wrong with that?

[NickH]

I know these few things.

1) I've owned a wide selection of basses in my life so far of vastly varying quality and played on a good deal of friends' and customers' instruments too. I have a sound in my head I'm aiming towards which I consider "my sound". Generally it's easier for me to find my sound on a better quality instrument. I'm sure people who know me and my playing would hear me and say "Oh that's Nick's playing". The more musicianly ones would hear the difference between my playing on a good rig as opposed to a bad rig. The non-muso ones probably would not.

2) For live performance, especially given that I'm not in stadiums with an army of sound guys tinkering my every frequency and naked Playboy bunnies to bring me lines of coke hourly, the subtle nuances of instrument quality are going to be lost on 99% of the listeners. To the average punter a great deal more impression is made by how the instrument looks than how it sounds, at least down to the fine variations we're talking about here.

3) In the studio it's a bit different. You're going to hear subtle differences between playing the same bass part on two different-sounding basses regardless of what the tech does. How much of a factor this is depends on the quality of recording gear, how heavily you tinker and FX your sound, the room, alighment of the planets etc etc. Pro session players generally own a lot more different basses for this reason (Ref: OutToPlayJazz's quote near the top of the thread about keeping the producer/MD happy). This would not be the case if all basses of all woods with all variations of pickup sounded the same, or like "a bass guitar".

4) Visual excellence is almost as much a part of putting on a good live show as musical. Sucks but there it is. This has been discussed elsewhere to death. A group with a cohesive visual scheme come across as a lot more professional than the 5 completely disparate people who happen to be sharing a stage. What your bass looks like is important.

With this in mind I went to visit the nice folks at Status Graphite. Mainly I was curious about graphite necks. Tried one and loved it.
Next I tried a few stock basses of different wood types, played without amplification. The difference in body woods makes a very large change to the sound. I can't identify a wood type just by hearing it, but A-B testing shows the diffferences a lot. I decided I like the sound of walnut. It's also a beautiful wood to look at (see 4 above).
When I've had custom basses in the past while working at the workshop, I've always liked a J pup in the neck and a MM in the bridge. Tried soapbars but not my thing. Into 5's so P-type pups of little use. Saw no reason to change.

So now I'm the happy owner of a bass with the wood type, body shape, graphite neck, and electronic options I most wanted and feel get me closest to the sound in my head that identify me as me. It's a very good-looking bass and I feel more confident putting it on in front of people knowing this. Makes me feel I'm pleasing the eye as well as the ear. This confidence affects my live showmanship. The bass cost me about as much as an off-the-shelf Stingray 5 would have (if I had to go for a stock instrument, like gun-to-my-head situation, that would be the one) but to me it's infinitely more pleasing.
Playing live music will always be a joy for me however I do it, but playing it on the bass which is absolutely right for me magnifies the experience hugely. That's why I went custom.