Not wishing to be provocative but....

[4000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='628044' date='Oct 16 2009, 04:15 PM']I suspect it is a bit of both. I approach different instruments the same but am likely to have to make miniscule adjustments to accommodate stuff like string spacing, neck profile, body shape. WIther way, the adjustment would take minutes for most playing and hours for more sophisticated techniques. IN reality, I play another bass about once a year for 10 minutes.

I actually think that the quality of your amp is for more central to the sound than the wood your bass is made of. This applies to all sound reinforcement. Guitars and keyboards through cheap amps are just as bad a basses.[/quote]

I've now owned something like 50 basses in near enough 30 years, from cheapies to customs, and have to say that very few of them have really sounded alike. Yes, with eq or a different rig some have been able to approximate others, but there are many that I just haven't been able to duplicate no matter how I eq because it's not just about eq, it's about the way the instrument produces the note; the response across the strings, the attack and decay, the envelope (as Alex says). My Jaydees sounded nothing like my Pedulla, neither did my Wal (I tried approximating the Pedulla sound on the Wal and couldn't get close, regardless of eq on bass or rig); the Statii always sounded like Statii regardless of eq, etc etc. The biggest challenge has been the Ricks. I've owned around nine and haven't ever been able to get one to sound like the other, certainly unless I just roll everything off and go with a mud sound. My 2 CSs couldn't replicate the sound of my '72 at all. Not even close. Nor could they even begin to replicate my 4000; I could eq 'til I was blue in the face and it made no difference. I can't get my Seis to even vaguely approximate my Rics (nor could my Alembic). Of course the average punter would seldom know the difference, but I don't really care what they think. I'm completely with Alex in this, in that the envelope of the note and the way different basses sing out (or don't) is the thing that's most difficult to replicate. My 72 Rick has a relatively weak E but sounds bigger and bigger as you go up the neck. I've never played another type of bass that does that the same way, however I eq it, and trust me I've tried. I recently tried to use my Seis in rehearsal instead of my Rics; there were some songs that no matter what eq I used they just did not work because I could not get the unique response of the Ric out of the Seis (I've tried it before with Status, Wal, Pedulla, Alembic etc etc). Likewise the Ric cannot in any way approximate the Seis or the Alembic or the Statii etc etc. Lines that work on one bass just do not work the same for me on another, regardless of eq. You may be one of those lucky/unlucky (depending on your requirements) people who makes everything sound similar, but not everyone does.

Of course you could argue that none of this is important to the music. To me however it is, because the unique response of the instrument affects what lines I may play, thus affecting the music itself (bear in mind I hardly ever play anyone else's music, although the same would probably apply if I did).

[Bilbo]

But if you have had 50 basses in 30 years, you have averaged seven months with each bass - I suspect its even less in many cases. That's the same as having a sofa with the plastic covers still on - you'll never get used to it. And I would assume that you have tried a zillion amps in combination with each bass so the number of variables is sky high. I have no problem believing that there are differences between basses and woods, different pick up combinations etc but it seems to me that some of us have out heads turned when a bass sounds different and lack any sense of which bass sounds great and which sounds just ok. Going down the custom route just seems like expensive hair-splitting.

My point is this: my Wal has served me well in rock, funk, shows, jazz, small groups, big bands, function bands etc. I can accept that a different bass in each case would be different but I see it as hair splitting as well and I know that noone but me would notice. I think its like the LPs vs cds vs MP3s discussion. Everyone says that LPs sound better but, if you are listening to music in the car, who will be able to tell? I believe producers are capable of asking for a specific sound but if someone wants me to sound like Stanley Clarke, they have booked the wrong bloke! Put an Alembic in my hands and I won't sound like SC, I guarantee it. I just struggle with the idea that, with 50 basses to choose from, you can't find one that works

[4000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='628833' date='Oct 17 2009, 04:29 PM']But if you have had 50 basses in 30 years, you have averaged seven months with each bass - I suspect its even less in many cases. That's the same as having a sofa with the plastic covers still on - you'll never get used to it. And I would assume that you have tried a zillion amps in combination with each bass so the number of variables is sky high. I have no problem believing that there are differences between basses and woods, different pick up combinations etc but it seems to me that some of us have out heads turned when a bass sounds different and lack any sense of which bass sounds great and which sounds just ok. Going down the custom route just seems like expensive hair-splitting.

My point is this: my Wal has served me well in rock, funk, shows, jazz, small groups, big bands, function bands etc. I can accept that a different bass in each case would be different but I see it as hair splitting as well and I know that noone but me would notice. I think its like the LPs vs cds vs MP3s discussion. Everyone says that LPs sound better but, if you are listening to music in the car, who will be able to tell? I believe producers are capable of asking for a specific sound but if someone wants me to sound like Stanley Clarke, they have booked the wrong bloke! Put an Alembic in my hands and I won't sound like SC, I guarantee it. I just struggle with the idea that, with 50 basses to choose from, you can't find one that works [/quote]

Not true actually. I usually have several basses at any given time; a few "keepers" and then others which I chop and change. I had my first Rick 6 years before it was stolen. I had my Pedulla 3 or 4 years and loved it for most of that time. My head was indeed turned by a Wal ironically enough; that came and went quickly because I didn't get on with it; sonically it didn't do the job I needed it to. My 72 Rick I've had since '93, which is plenty of time to "get used to it". I've also been playing Ricks since the day I've started playing so that has remained a constant; however as much as I love them there are some jobs they just do not do very well, at least in my hands (and despite years of practice). Many of the instruments I've owned haven't moved on because I didn't get on with them (I can always find some use to put an instrument to) but because there have been other instruments I've been interested in and unfortunately I don't earn enough money to keep them all (if I'd had the money I would still have many of the basses I've owned; certainly 20 or 30). I'm intrigued by new experience and new possibilities (oo-er missus!) and there are simply other things I want to try. One other thing; at what point did I say that I couldn't get any of them to work?

Regarding amps, in the past 20 years or so I've probably owned four or five and I only got rid of my favourite rig because it became too heavy once my back problems started; this is also the only reason I've got rid of my Alembic and my 2nd Jaydee which I would otherwise still have to this day. However, in addition to the points I've already made, part of the fun is [i]trying[/i] all these instruments, in the same way that I like to go to different restaurants and try different meals to see if I like them. Using your own criteria, this can't necessarily be done in five minutes in a shop without a band playing around you.

Still, it's not really about "getting used to it". I could possibly get used to a really annoying partner or an uncomfortable pair of shoes, but why would I want to do that? I'm not sure you've really read (or at least understood) my post. Each instrument brings something new to the table. I can use a single bass in every instance you've quoted in the same way that I can use a single brush to paint with, but I choose not to because it may not be the best bass/brush for the job. You say you have a background in art. Do you paint? If so, do you only have one brush to paint with? Only one pot of colour? Give me a HB pencil and I can draw you a picture, but a single HB pencil is often not what I would choose to use.

I've already explained my reasons for going custom which may differ from those of others, and they aren't really connected with the post you've quoted or indeed many of the points in this post; mainly they're connected with the creative side of it which fascinates me (I'm a creative bloke and gravitate towards other creative types and their product). In reality my main bass is a stock bass anyway. However I think 2 points you're missing are that (1) maybe you just got lucky with your bass and it happens to fit well and do what you want it to and (2) maybe some people are far more interested in the process of choosing a bass than you are, in the same way that some blokes hate shopping and others love it (I happen to be one of the ones that love it). Do you settle for the first pair of socks you come across, or do you shop around?

The Alembic comment is a weird one; not everyone buys an Alembic to try and sound like "insert player". I certainly didn't. Oh, and once again I note you say that "only you" would notice the difference if you used a different bass. Well, that's a good enough reason for me to use a different bass! If you make choices based on other people's criteria or judgement - unless of course they're employing you and that's what you're there for - you are truly lost.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you've decided you're right based on your own particular needs and choices, and then have (as many people do) tried to judge the choices of others using this criteria. There's nothing wrong with making people think, but when you try to convince them that what they're thinking is wrong simply because it doesn't agree with what you think that's another thing entirely. There was a pyschologist at my art college who was convinced that one of the pictures I'd painted was inspired by childhood viewing of footage of the Vietnam war and who kept trying to get me to admit it. He was wrong. It was actually inspired by childhood viewing of Scooby Doo .

Edited October 18, 2009 by 4000

[alanbass1]

I had one bass made to my custom spec's and was very dissappointed with the end result. Probably more to do with the fact that they positioned the bridge for 35" scale and set the frets for 34" and the thing wouldn't intonate until it got sorted - then they damaged the finish!

Never again.......

[Stacker]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='625049' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:47 PM']I dunno about most people, but I'm happy with off the peg basses once they have been tweaked to my preferences. Degloss the back of the neck if required, set up with the action low with TI flats, replace the pots & socket with CTS & switchcraft, roll the fingerboard edges, put on an aged pearl pickguard on a mustang, chrome covers on a Precision, badass bridge on a jazz, hipshot d-tuner etc

Getting one custom made would take all the fun out of it.[/quote]


I'm having more fun knocking them up from parts myself! Well, a Strat and two tele projects that are in the offing and one Jazz, now sold.

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='alanbass1' post='629360' date='Oct 18 2009, 11:42 AM']I had one bass made to my custom spec's and was very dissappointed with the end result. Probably more to do with the fact that they positioned the bridge for 35" scale and set the frets for 34" and the thing wouldn't intonate until it got sorted - then they damaged the finish!

Never again.......[/quote]


Was that my Zoot by any chance?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='4000' post='628945' date='Oct 17 2009, 07:05 PM']With all due respect, it seems to me that you've decided you're right based on your own particular needs and choices, and then have (as many people do) tried to judge the choices of others using this criteria. There's nothing wrong with making people think, but when you try to convince them that what they're thinking is wrong simply because it doesn't agree with what you think that's another thing entirely.[/quote]

I never thought for an instant that I was right, I just had a position and put it forward. In case people hadn't noticed, I enjoy the debates not because they are resolved but because they are engaging. What I struggle with is the apparent dichotomy between the idea that Alembics (or whatever) have a distinct sound but that, if you play one, you won't sound like whoever. There is a subtle contradiction in there.

We will, as always, have to agree to disagree and just enjoy the ride

[Musicman20]

Ive decided to steer clear of custom. Purely because I get what I want with stock instruments once Ive found one I like.

In addition, I take a long time to decide, so Id be forever changing my mind.

Shuker JJB seems awesome though...but thats more of a boutique signature instrument.

Im sticking with basses I know I like. My next will be a Fender American Reissue, but not for some time.

My other issue is that if you sell a custom...you never usually get the value back that it should retain.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Musicman20

[Sibob]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='630590' date='Oct 19 2009, 06:10 PM']My other issue is that if you sell a custom...you never usually get the value back that it should retain.[/quote]

Yeah but that's the same with any bass guitar, or instrument in general, that isn't a vintage Fender lol

Si

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Sibob' post='630606' date='Oct 19 2009, 06:23 PM']Yeah but that's the same with any bass guitar, or instrument in general, that isn't a vintage Fender lol

Si[/quote]

I know we all loose a fair bit, but with the high end custom, especially the more bizarre types, the sellers seem to lose a hell of a lot. More than id expect or want to lose.

[4000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='630086' date='Oct 19 2009, 09:38 AM']I never thought for an instant that I was right, I just had a position and put it forward. In case people hadn't noticed, I enjoy the debates not because they are resolved but because they are engaging. What I struggle with is the apparent dichotomy between the idea that Alembics (or whatever) have a distinct sound but that, if you play one, you won't sound like whoever. There is a subtle contradiction in there.

We will, as always, have to agree to disagree and just enjoy the ride [/quote]

Absolutely. As you may have noticed I love a good debate too, especially one where I get to waffle on endlessly.

As an aside, I didn't buy either of my Alembics to sound like anybody, but my second Alembic did sound remarkably close to that of Jimmy Johnson with minimal tweaking. I have no idea what that proves.

Edited October 19, 2009 by 4000

[7string]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='630613' date='Oct 19 2009, 06:28 PM']I know we all loose a fair bit, but with the high end custom, especially the more bizarre types, the sellers seem to lose a hell of a lot. More than id expect or want to lose.[/quote]

My Sei has my signature inlaid at the 12th fret. Can't imagine anyone would want to buy it

[Davo-London]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625015' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:29 PM']I am not a particularly expert in the mysteries of bass design but, having played one of the damn things for nearly 30 years (literally one of them, the same bass for over 23 of them), I struggle to see the value of spending vast sums of money on expensive custom jobs. There are only two legitimate reasons for doing this, in my eyes, one is for cosmetic reasons (like Gene Simmons 'axe' basses or the bloke from Slade's 'gun' bass, for instance) or for specific technical reasons like needing an 11-string to explore your muse. I see some lovely looking basses on here being custom designed and have glanced superficially at long posts about how it all comes together. It is all very exciting but, fundamentally, I struggle to see the point.

I have always struggled to understand why musicians can't be satisfied with 'off the peg' instruments. I get that this pick up is different from that one and a maple neck feels different to a rosewood one etc but, from where I am standing, none of these basses sound remarkable enough to have warranted the expense. Most of them sound like a bass. Brilliant. But why isn't a Jazz/Precision/Wal/Warwick/Alembic/whatever etc good enough?

Double bass players tend to get a bass and stick to it (Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Marc Johnson, Scott LaFaro, Mingus etc all played one bass through most of their careers and only replaced them if they were damaged or stolen). Same with sax players, trumpeters etc. Many pianists play a different instrument every night. So what's it all about, peeps?

Is it just vanity [/quote]

It's OK as long as ignorance is acceptable.

[OutToPlayJazz]

I think a lot of us want that one special instrument that's both personal to us and unique. I've done two custom orders in the past and ended up selling both of them, as they ended up being not exactly what I wanted. Not the fault of the luthier, just that bit of doubt in my mind.

So I guess I try to live by the "try before you buy" mantra. Yes, I have a couple of unique custom instruments now, but they were either bought as stock basses (in the case of two of the Status basses) or as mint used instruments (in the case of the other Status instruments and my ACG.)

In certain cases, off the peg instruments are great. I wouldn't change my Am.Std Jazz for the world. It's literally the best Jazz I've ever played by a long margin and that includes some excellent Sadowskys as well.

So custom instruments can be wonderful, personal things, but be prepared for a little shaded disappointment if you don't quite gel with what you ordered.

Rich.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='633179' date='Oct 22 2009, 09:15 AM']I think a lot of us want that one special instrument that's both personal to us and unique. I've done two custom orders in the past and ended up selling both of them, as they ended up being not exactly what I wanted. Not the fault of the luthier, just that bit of doubt in my mind.

So I guess I try to live by the "try before you buy" mantra. Yes, I have a couple of unique custom instruments now, but they were either bought as stock basses (in the case of two of the Status basses) or as mint used instruments (in the case of the other Status instruments and my ACG.)

In certain cases, off the peg instruments are great. I wouldn't change my Am.Std Jazz for the world. It's literally the best Jazz I've ever played by a long margin and that includes some excellent Sadowskys as well.

So custom instruments can be wonderful, personal things, but be prepared for a little shaded disappointment if you don't quite gel with what you ordered.

Rich.[/quote]

Hallo

I spent about three hours late last night discussing my new E Basses Valiant bass with Ian Hancock (the man who builds these) and it will be based on this bass (which is owned by Nigel Clutterbuck)




The nice thing is, its going to be a personalised custom so I already know how its going to play like etc and the wood combinations have already been `tried and tested' on other basses Ian has built so it should give me what I want; the core body wood will be some really old mahogany (recycled from a load of school benches!), a flamed maple accent layer, then a burr elm top. Neck construction will be maple with mahogany stringers, graphite rods etc and a bound birdseye maple board. The main `custom' aspects will be the pickup spacing and neck profile - so in a way, its not a total one-off custom bass but it will be based on the Valiant model with requisite `tweaks' - bit like a bespoke bass!

Can't wait!

Nick (just to point out that I am no longer part of E Basses but just a willing non-paid helper outer at shows etc!!! - this post is in no way an advert etc although I did co-design the Valiant shape which is very sexy I think!!)

[Dread Bass]

That is some top Doc.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='metaltime' post='633349' date='Oct 22 2009, 12:33 PM']That is some top Doc.[/quote]

Cheers - mine is going to look similar but the facings I've chosen are more burled and almost red in colour! Nasty!

Nick

[peteb]

[quote name='Davo-London' post='633019' date='Oct 21 2009, 11:27 PM']It's OK as long as ignorance is acceptable.[/quote]
I don't think that bilbo's post that you refer to is ignorant at all - I think that he makes a valid point

Edited October 22, 2009 by peteb

[7string]

[quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='633304' date='Oct 22 2009, 11:39 AM']Hallo

I spent about three hours late last night discussing my new E Basses Valiant bass with Ian Hancock (the man who builds these) and it will be based on this bass (which is owned by Nigel Clutterbuck)

[/quote]

It's a nice shape and the woods lovely, but those knobs clash a bit

Is the word at the end of the neck "Rhythmsync"?? If it is I hope the mis-spelling is deliberate!!

Edited October 23, 2009 by 7string

[doctor_of_the_bass]

Allo!

Nigel (the owner) is a massive purpleheart fan and the bass has many such wooded features including those hand-turned knobs! Yes, that was a slight typo error on the truss rod cover plate which was subsequently replaced with a new one!

[Nostromo]

Hi Bilbo,
This has been a really interesting debate to follow.
I was drawn to it as I recently ordered and then bought a custom bass . . . and indeed . . . . reaction to that move from fellow musicians I know has been mixed to say the least and generally negative. So, I thought I'd chip in and just share my experiences -
Ive experienced various different reactions from players . . . but by far the most common reaction has been from (what appears to have been the largest like minded group of musicians) who think the only instruments that are any good at all are vintage instruments (pre CBS fenders etc etc !) . . . so I've had retorts like . . . "you must be mad, you could have bought a really decent 60's Jazz Bass for that money" ?
The second biggest group of comments were from those who advocate that a well set up Squire or other cheap copy is just as good a USA bass and thus by definition I've just wasted my money ! . . . irrespective of the fact that I had particular reasons for going the route I did !
Very few musicians have bothered to say - that's a nice guitar, or inquired as to why I went down that route - almost all have had a preconceived view on the subject . . and this thread seems to bear out that observation I think ?
For me, I went the custom shop route for purely ergonomic reasons. I like the Jazz Bass and specifically the narrower neck of a Jazz Bass. I believe I'm quite a decent player, but I really struggle with wide necked instruments. (I just don't find them comfortable to play at all and I end up focusing on fret board technique rather than performance when I'm not playing a Jazz Bass. With a Jazz neck, I'm comfortable, and I just get on with the music and the gig and don't even think about the neck at all). I learned to play on a Jazz width Neck - an early Japanese Jazz Bass Special - which I still gig regularly - and now, many years later, that's definitely the neck shape I'm most comfortable with.
So, when I wanted a nice precision bass, which I do believe sounds fundamentally different to a Jazz, i was a bit stuck, because I didn't want a precision neck. I've heard that you can swap the necks over between Jazz's and Precision's as, apparently, the neck pockets are all the same, but I just didn't know enough about the subject to risk buying two donor guitars and taking them to bits ? . . So . . . I decided to order what I actually wanted ?
I'm really happy with the outcome . . . a nice custom USA bass with a precision pick up and a fine Jazz neck - just as I like it ! . . . . Whilst I was at it, I asked for a nice birds eye maple neck as well - I simply thought, I'm ordering a custom instrument and paying extra, so it may as well have some feature that showcases it as compared to a standard instrument ?
So, there you have it . . .thats my contribution. I think custom is fine if that's what you want. If Fender made a nice precision base with a Jazz profile neck I'm certain thats the route I would have gone. But they dont (or didn't then) so that why I've got my custom !
Long live interesting debate and different points of view ! ! . . . . both of which are, of course, so very well facilitated by Basschat !

Edited October 24, 2009 by Nostromo

[Sibob]

Nostromo - Get some pictures in the Porn section please!

Si