Not wishing to be provocative but....

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625833' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:23 AM']There's nothing wrong with any of this. I am just trying to save people a lot of hassle chasing things thay probably already have.[/quote]


Surely that's part of the fun of playing bass though? Trying new stuff out to see if you like it, if it can add something to your sound?

There's 3 basses i own that i would be happy to use as my main instrument. I use the best looking and sounding one, the Zoot.
It is a custom order but i bought it second hand for under £750, less than a new Fender and half the price of a new Stingray. It beats them both hands down
I bought it because i had always liked the Zoot Chaser, the off-the-shelf model made by Iceni. Mine was cheaper and nicer, like buying a 2nd hand custom shop Fender over the USA Standard

If i needed a new bass and had the cash i'd have no worries about ordering a Zoot or a Shuker, ACG etc. They're just superb basses, end of.
The fact that i could take say a Warwick down and have the neck profile copied is icing on the cake

Edited October 14, 2009 by lemmywinks

[BigRedX]

What actually constitutes a "custom" bass?

IMO the only real custom bass that's cropped up recently on this forum is Spoombung's built by Mike Walsh. It's completely unique in its design and specification.

Most luthiers offering individually made instruments have a set of designs that they use as a starting point for their customers. For instance my Sei is individually made for me, but essentially it's an Offset Flamboyant with my choice (with the help of Martin) of woods, pickups, electronics and finish. I have one or two design tweaks, but they are simply tweaks and do not detract from the essential "Sei Flamboyant-ness" of the bass.

In fact in choosing Martin to build my bass I looked for someone who was already making something close to what I wanted and was open to the options that I wanted on my particular instrument. These days there are so many luthiers out there all offering their own individual designs and features that it isn't hard to find someone who is already offering close to what you want somewhere in the world.

[Rich]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='625833' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:23 AM']There's nothing wrong with any of this. I am just trying to save people a lot of hassle chasing things thay probably already have.[/quote]
The build process of my bass -- from initially visiting Jon to select woods and decide on finish & hardware, right through to collecting it and having the dream realised -- was one of the least 'hassling' things I have ever done! If the rest of my life was as much 'hassle' as that, I'd be the most relaxed man alive.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Rich' post='625969' date='Oct 14 2009, 01:23 PM']The build process of my bass -- from initially visiting Jon to select woods and decide on finish & hardware, right through to collecting it and having the dream realised -- was one of the least 'hassling' things I have ever done! If the rest of my life was as much 'hassle' as that, I'd be the most relaxed man alive.[/quote]

+1!!!

As may have already been noticed I'm very curious about sound and I really enjoyed learning more about what I needed to get the tonal range and responsiveness I wanted. If Bilbo can suggest a production bass with the B-string tension of a 36" scale, the unplugged loudness and response to changes in plucking of a lightweight chambered body, the perfect balance of midrange growl and smoothness and tight big lows of a wenge/ash thru-neck, the clean open treble, midrange punch and bass depth with zero noise of Q-Tuners pickups, the upper fret access and balance of this body shape, the convenience and simplicity of all passive electronics, the neck feel of a wenge board and tiny frets, the resistance to fretwear and the brightness of stainless steel frets, the lowlight clarity of giant aluminium dots, the stability to never need a guitar stand when against a wall, and do all that at well under £2k then I'll be very interested!

Alex

[GreeneKing]

When I had my 1st ACG specced I spent the most enjoyable 3+ hours talking through all the options and possibilities, discussing why some things work and some don't, choosing woods and matching the same, spending time getting to know the guy who was applying his craft, getting a feel for value and in the process as it turned out making a good friend. Hassle??

I'm surprised a bit at the OP's stance. He seems to be suggesting that he is in some way 'right' or superior in his insistence that a whole load of us would be better off just practising more often with an off the shelf bass. I don't see no mutual exclusivity here. Can I not have a custom bass AND devote much time to perfecting my musicianship, does it make me any the less if I don't?

Maybe this is not the case and it's entirely my distorted grasp of this thread but I believe the provocation has been quite deliberate and is coming from a slightly 'better than' stance. Many bass players have offered a valid alternative position that seems to me to be discounted.

Edited October 14, 2009 by GreeneKing

[Geoff]

Who cares what anyone plays, ultimately its down to the music you produce and the pleasure you get from that.

I personally dont see the need to get a 'custom' instrument, as i'm extremely happy with the basses ive got, but if someone wants a specific bass then there's no reason why anyone should say that they shouldnt be able to. Free will people

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Rich' post='625828' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:17 AM']OK. Well in that case, look out for my forthcoming brand new threads on playing whilst singing, whether jazz is any good or not, vegetarians, which is best out of a Jazz or a Precision, Jade Goody, strap length, slapping, football, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...
[/quote]


and in the spirit of repetition

+1 from me to Rich again

Edited October 14, 2009 by MacDaddy

[4000]

[quote name='Geoff' post='626122' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:56 PM']ultimately its down to the pleasure you get[/quote]

Actually, this is the only bit that matters. The pleasure that I get from the process of having basses built has been/is/will be immeasurable, and I'm sure that's the case for most people who go through the process. That's what I care about, no more, no less. To me, if that's chasing something, well it's kind of like chasing my next fantastic holiday!

[alexclaber]

What's the point of buying anything other than a standard new build house? It's not about what you live in, it's about how you live your life.

Alex

[Bilbo]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='626110' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:36 PM']Maybe this is not the case and it's entirely my distorted grasp of this thread but I believe the provocation has been quite deliberate and is coming from a slightly 'better than' stance. Many bass players have offered a valid alternative position that seems to me to be discounted.[/quote]

Of course its deliberate, why would I start it accidently

As for it coming from a 'better than' stance, trust me, its really not that important

[GreeneKing]

I'm trying out with a Jazz oriented band on Monday night. If successful I'll probably end up wearing a beret and being quietly smug

No offence intended.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='626330' date='Oct 14 2009, 08:01 PM']I'm trying out with a Jazz oriented band on Monday night. If successful I'll probably end up wearing a beret and being quietly smug

No offence intended.[/quote]

Peter? A beret? Is it exclusively French jazz, then? I play a lot of jazz & I don't wear a beret. Might keep my bald head warmer, though!

[4000]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626297' date='Oct 14 2009, 07:19 PM']Of course its deliberate, why would I start it accidently

As for it coming from a 'better than' stance, trust me, its really not that important [/quote]

The only thing I've got to say to this is "Bagginsssss.........Sssshire"!!!!!!!!!

[leftybassman392]

I get the feeling that all the arguments from purely within the bass community have been covered in these pages. I'd like to attempt a different perspective. As a former guitarist, I owned (and still do own) a number of instruments. Each has a different sound, a different feel and a different function (well okay, I do have a bit of a thing for stratocasters , but apart from that....). Importantly for this argument, they are for the most part not properly interchangeable - yes, you CAN use a nylon strung guitar to play Jazz, and you CAN use a Jazz guitar to play Flamenco, but most people wouldn't because there's a different choice that generally has a better chance of giving you what you want. I reckon I can spot the instrument I'm hearing from the sound alone, and I reckon further that I can tell the difference between different examples of the same model using the same criteria.

Although I don't have the years behind me as a bassist that most of the contributors to this thread have, I'd nevertheless be surprised if the same isn't true of different makes and models of bass. All due respect Bilbo, but I don't really buy the 'if the instrument is good enough then a proper professional will make it work for them' argument. A decent player can always make a decent instrument work for them if they need to, and IME a lot of working pros do have a favourite instrument that they always like to at least have handy in most situations. But that's not the same as saying that all bass players should consider themselves somehow inadequate because they want to use their Sei Original (for example) in one situation and their Fender Jazz in another, any more than a guitarist should be worried about wanting to use their Strat on some occasions and their 335 on others.

Having said that, I do think there is an aesthetic aspect to the ownership of a boutique bass - looking at my current collection, I can't help wondering if some of them are there because they look and feel stunning. But then again, if that helps me to enjoy the experience more (and hence improve my motivation to, er, improve), why is that a bad thing?

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I consider myself a working music professional - despite the fact that I rarely gig these days, I continue to earn my living through my knowledge and skill as a player and teacher. (And no, I don't buy the 'those who can, do - those who can't, teach' attitude either. Perhaps we can have an argument about that... )

[leschirons]

Maybe it's just what some people want to spend their money on and don't need anybody else to "see the point"

[4000]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='626448' date='Oct 14 2009, 09:46 PM']I get the feeling that all the arguments from purely within the bass community have been covered in these pages. I'd like to attempt a different perspective. As a former guitarist, I owned (and still do own) a number of instruments. Each has a different sound, a different feel and a different function (well okay, I do have a bit of a thing for stratocasters , but apart from that....). Importantly for this argument, they are for the most part not properly interchangeable - yes, you CAN use a nylon strung guitar to play Jazz, and you CAN use a Jazz guitar to play Flamenco, but most people wouldn't because there's a different choice that generally has a better chance of giving you what you want. I reckon I can spot the instrument I'm hearing from the sound alone, and I reckon further that I can tell the difference between different examples of the same model using the same criteria.

Although I don't have the years behind me as a bassist that most of the contributors to this thread have, I'd nevertheless be surprised if the same isn't true of different makes and models of bass. All due respect Bilbo, but I don't really buy the 'if the instrument is good enough then a proper professional will make it work for them' argument. A decent player can always make a decent instrument work for them if they need to, and IME a lot of working pros do have a favourite instrument that they always like to at least have handy in most situations. But that's not the same as saying that all bass players should consider themselves somehow inadequate because they want to use their Sei Original (for example) in one situation and their Fender Jazz in another, any more than a guitarist should be worried about wanting to use their Strat on some occasions and their 335 on others.

Having said that, I do think there is an aesthetic aspect to the ownership of a boutique bass - looking at my current collection, I can't help wondering if some of them are there because they look and feel stunning. But then again, if that helps me to enjoy the experience more (and hence improve my motivation to, er, improve), why is that a bad thing?[/quote]

+1.

[Bilbo]

Andy's argument is credible but, in resposne, I would have to say that the difference between solidbody/hollowbody/steel strung/nylon strung/12-string guitars is quite marked. They are, to all intents and purposes, as different as, say, a piano and a harpsichord or a trumpet and flugelhorn. The difference between a fretted and fretless bass is also quite marked. But I struggle to hear any discernable difference between, say, a Fender Jazz and A Fender Precision THAT CANNOT BE RADICALLY CHANGED BY TWEAKING A KNOB OR TWO ON THE AMP. Now I can accept that there is a difference between Jaco's Jazz and Steve Harris' Precision sound bit, if they swapped basses, they would still sound like Jaco and Harris not Harris and Jaco. People like Jimmy Haslip change bass every six months but, bearing in mind I don't follow Haslip's career, his bass sound on cds is not massively altered by the change. Same with Chris Squire and his choices over the years. Yes there are subtle differences but nothing that really impacts significantly on the finsihed product i.e. the music. Its a bit like having Keith Jarrett insisting on having a Steinway replaced by a Bosendorfer before he can play. There may be a subtle difference that 2 people in the world can hear but, fundamentally, they both sound like pianos and the bits that are differenct are inconsequential to 99% of their audience.

[alexclaber]

A Fender Jazz and Fender Precision are essentially identical instruments, just with different pickups.

Do you really think that all those who choose to have custom basses didn't bother learning their craft before getting a custom bass? And likewise would insist that they can only get their sound on their custom bass. Honestly...

If you're going to start a knowingly provocative thread, you could at least do those who respond the courtesy of reading their posts and even engaging your brain when doing so.

Alex

[Bilbo]

And different necks and different string spacing. All of which make a minimal difference to the final product - the music.

All I am saying (and some of you are taking all of this far too seriously) is that the main motivation, from where I am sitting, is aestheic - i.e. having a lovely bespoke thing that you can point at and say 'mine'. If that is the case, fine (I studied Art at Diploma level too so pretty things matter to me to). I just think its a bit superficial and has little to do with the thing that matters to me, the music. And, with very few exceptiosn, I like the look of most basses so it matters not a lot

[alexclaber]

Go talk to Anthony Jackson. If you think it's just aesthetic then you might be that kind of person that thinks the only reason people buy sportcars is because they look nice.

Just because you come from an art background and thus think it must be all about pretty things doesn't mean that everyone else thinks like you. The only aesthetic decisions on my custom bass were the headstock style (Robbie's idea), the black pinstripe, and the colour of the hardware. Every other decision was based on tone and ergonomics. Not dissimilar to the original Mini - form follows function.

Alex

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626737' date='Oct 15 2009, 10:27 AM']And different necks and different string spacing. All of which make a minimal difference to the final product - the music.

All I am saying (and some of you are taking all of this far too seriously) is that the main motivation, from where I am sitting, is aestheic - i.e. having a lovely bespoke thing that you can point at and say 'mine'. If that is the case, fine (I studied Art at Diploma level too so pretty things matter to me to). I just think its a bit superficial and has little to do with the thing that matters to me, the music. And, with very few exceptiosn, I like the look of most basses so it matters not a lot [/quote]

Okay, so what you're trying to say is:

"If I, Bilbo, were to buy a custom bass, it would be for predominantly aesthetic reasons. I refuse to accept that other people may feel differently."

S.P.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='625913' date='Oct 14 2009, 12:40 PM']Surely that's part of the fun of playing bass though? Trying new stuff out to see if you like it, if it can add something to your sound?[/quote]
I think this is where the difference is- a lot of people like (or think they like?) chopping and changing gear, whereas for Bilbo its all about the music, and the gear is very much secondary to that. To you (and a lot of other people) that is part of the fun but not necessarily everyone.

[Sibob]

I now demand that Bilbo does a gig on a Squier Bronco, and provide us with pictures to show us that it's "just about the music"

Si

[Geoff]

The thing is none of this actually matters. Saying that you buy something for the music and only for the music is silly, as music is aesthetic. Once you've got food and shelter, everything in life is icing on the cake. Humans dont need to make music to survive, we do it for aesthetic reasons (theoretically).

[Prosebass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='626737' date='Oct 15 2009, 10:27 AM']And different necks and different string spacing. All of which make a minimal difference to the final product - the music.

All I am saying (and some of you are taking all of this far too seriously) is that the main motivation, from where I am sitting, is aestheic - i.e. having a lovely bespoke thing that you can point at and say 'mine'. If that is the case, fine (I studied Art at Diploma level too so pretty things matter to me to). I just think its a bit superficial and has little to do with the thing that matters to me, the music. And, with very few exceptiosn, I like the look of most basses so it matters not a lot [/quote]

+1 on the 'far too seriously' aspect but if you attack peoples personal choices what do you expect ?
Its the same with cars and houses. People try to justify why they have bought 'A' as opposed to 'B' and it is this justification thats gets people argueing.
If you want to buy something just buy it with the only justification needed being 'because I like it'
Price should not come into the arguement as some people put value on the fact that a good quality bass that suits them can be had at a reasonable price and does what they want it too.
The fact that a bass is inexpensive whether off the shelf or custom / handbuilt does not make it less of a bass than a more expensive one.
Price has nothing to do with value and quality.
Others feel the need to spend lots on either off the peg, vintage or custom to get what they want out of a bass and this is surely a decision that only they can take regardless of what others opinions are.

Ask a boy racer with his Nova what is the best thing to do to his car to enable him to go faster ?
He will probably reply, 'induction kit' , 'performance exhaust' , 'low profile tyres' when in reality the first performance mod to make any car go faster is in fact uprated brakes.......food for thought !