Why do the manufacturers of lined fretless necks insist on putting the side dots between the lines?

[Beedster]

Trying to buy a lined fretless neck and every neck I've been offered on here has the side dots between the fretlines, which I find extremely confusing having got used to playing unlined fretless necks which have dots at the fretting position.

Arghhhhh. Why do they do this?

OK, I'm not really asking the question, it's more of a rant

Chris

Edited October 25, 2009 by Beedster

[BigAlonBass]

Money! That's what everything comes down to these days, isn't it? Just set up a production line, making the same generic necks, with the dots in the same generic place, and leave the frets out. That way, they don't have to re-jig to offer a 'dots-on-the-fret-line' option.

[fretmeister]

Order a neck from Status - they give you the option.

My replacement neck has the dots where the frets should be. It's much easier!!

[Beedster]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='635934' date='Oct 25 2009, 10:14 AM']Money! That's what everything comes down to these days, isn't it? Just set up a production line, making the same generic necks, with the dots in the same generic place, and leave the frets out. That way, they don't have to re-jig to offer a 'dots-on-the-fret-line' option. [/quote]

You know what, I hadn't thought of that! I assumed that, as most players play both fretted and fretless, keeping the dots in the same place kept things consistent from the perspective of the player. This never made sense to me as the dots indicate where to place the finger, i.e., between the frets on fretted but on the 'frets' (i.e., fretlines) on a fretless. I can see why the copies/signature models keep the dots between the lines for 'authenticity', but really should have reaslied that, at the end of the day, on the majority of the rest, it's simply a money issue


[quote name='fretmeister' post='635939' date='Oct 25 2009, 10:17 AM']Order a neck from Status - they give you the option.

My replacement neck has the dots where the frets should be. It's much easier!![/quote]

Thanks for the advice fretmeister, I was really hoping to pick on up relatively cheaply and quickly

[OldGit]

A luthier cousl move them for you, not in a bob-a-job "move that hole from one place in the garden to another" (my dad's favorite bob-a-job joke) but in a drill and fill the old ones and drill and fit the new ones ..
Shouldn't cost a lot more than the neck

[xilddx]

I always found that really daft too. But I like an unlined neck so it's not a big issue for me.

[Beedster]

[quote name='silddx' post='636034' date='Oct 25 2009, 12:08 PM']I always found that really daft too. But I like an unlined neck so it's not a big issue for me.[/quote]

Hey mate, agreed, I have three unlined necks which I love but need a lined neck to cut down the potential cock ups in an upcoming recording project - we're recording live so I don't want to be the guy who messes up an otherwise great performance. I some respects I'm wimping out but I think it's the safest bet

[Happy Jack]

I recently sold my Ricky 4001 FL (unlined) which - very unusually - had red dots marking the position where the frets would have been, and no other side dots.

I found it very confusing to play and could only really manage by not looking at the neck as I played.

I think odub (who bought it from me) likes it more than I did.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='636049' date='Oct 25 2009, 12:24 PM']I recently sold my Ricky 4001 FL (unlined) which - very unusually - had red dots marking the position where the frets would have been, and no other side dots.

I found it very confusing to play and could only really manage by not looking at the neck as I played.

I think odub (who bought it from me) likes it more than I did.[/quote]

LOL, not as confusing as my Ric FL which has side dots AT the fretline whilst the dots on the board are BETWEEN the fretlines. WHY ON EARTH DID THEY DO THAT????? Trust me, it's so visually confusing - especially at the 8ve - that my intonation's better when I'm playing eyes closed

[Beedster]

[quote name='Beedster' post='636053' date='Oct 25 2009, 12:27 PM']LOL, not as confusing as my Ric FL which has side dots AT the fretline whilst the dots on the board are BETWEEN the fretlines. WHY ON EARTH DID THEY DO THAT????? Trust me, it's so visually confusing - especially at the 8ve - that my intonation's better when I'm playing eyes closed [/quote]

And I should add that my use of the word 'fretline' is entirely incorrect as it is an unlined neck, what I meant was 'where the fretlines would be'

[xilddx]

[quote name='Beedster' post='636046' date='Oct 25 2009, 12:22 PM']Hey mate, agreed, I have three unlined necks which I love but need a lined neck to cut down the potential cock ups in an upcoming recording project - we're recording live so I don't want to be the guy who messes up an otherwise great performance. I some respects I'm wimping out but I think it's the safest bet [/quote]
Can't say I blame you

What's the name of your band? I'm probably the only bugger on here that doesn't know.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Beedster' post='636095' date='Oct 25 2009, 01:24 PM']And I should add that my use of the word 'fretline' is entirely incorrect as it is an unlined neck, what I meant was 'where the fretlines would be' [/quote]
Madness. Totally crackers.

[Golchen]

I bought a cheap Harley Benton fretless to try out a few years ago. No fret lines AND it has the dots inbetween where frets would be! talk about unplayable for a newbie!!!! Damn lazy cheapskate b*stardz. I 'lined' the fretboard myself, which has at least made it playable.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='Beedster' post='636046' date='Oct 25 2009, 12:22 PM']Hey mate, agreed, I have three unlined necks which I love but need a lined neck to cut down the potential cock ups in an upcoming recording project - we're recording live so I don't want to be the guy who messes up an otherwise great performance. I some respects I'm wimping out but I think it's the safest bet [/quote]
If your neck has a 'shiny' finish where the dots are, might I recommend you try lines drawn on in Tipp-ex. (or some similar product) After the recording, it rubs off easily, leaving no trace. (Done it myself, with a Bass I used regularly for some Club work, where it was nearly impossible to see the dots or even the frets, due to lousy lighting.)
Disclaimer - I said on the side of the neck where it's shiny--NOT the fretboard!

[barneyg42]

[quote name='Beedster' post='635928' date='Oct 25 2009, 10:07 AM']Trying to buy a lined fretless neck and every neck I've been offered on here has the side dots between the fretlines, which I find extremely confusing having got used to playing unlined fretless necks which have dots at the fretting position.

Arghhhhh. Why do they do this?

OK, I'm not really asking the question, it's more of a rant

Chris[/quote]

See where you're coming from here, we were both looking at the same Squire Jazz for sale on the site and this bass has exactly this problem. Now my old JD had no lines but dots on the side ON the fret and that worked for me so like you I'm wondering if one with lines and dots off the frets will work. Obviously a JD is a custom build so maybe that's the way to go, whether by ordering something or looking for something like a JD. Hopefully I'm getting a few bob next month and will be gassing for something, I suppose the best thing to do is try out as much as possible to see if you can cope with the odd dot marking.

[Beedster]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='636525' date='Oct 25 2009, 09:39 PM']If your neck has a 'shiny' finish where the dots are, might I recommend you try lines drawn on in Tipp-ex. (or some similar product) After the recording, it rubs off easily, leaving no trace. (Done it myself, with a Bass I used regularly for some Club work, where it was nearly impossible to see the dots or even the frets, due to lousy lighting.)
Disclaimer - I said on the side of the neck where it's shiny--NOT the fretboard! [/quote]

I'll give it a go, cheers


[quote name='barneyg42' post='636594' date='Oct 25 2009, 11:23 PM']See where you're coming from here, we were both looking at the same Squire Jazz for sale on the site and this bass has exactly this problem. Now my old JD had no lines but dots on the side ON the fret and that worked for me so like you I'm wondering if one with lines and dots off the frets will work. Obviously a JD is a custom build so maybe that's the way to go, whether by ordering something or looking for something like a JD. Hopefully I'm getting a few bob next month and will be gassing for something, I suppose the best thing to do is try out as much as possible to see if you can cope with the odd dot marking.[/quote]

Unlined with dots on the fretting position is nice (my three are in that configuration), it's when you start looking at lined mecks that the dot markers seem to start moving backwards down the neck a bit, probably for the economic reasons alluded to above. It's not so much that it's impossible to play with dots between the lines, if all my basses had the same config it would be fine, it's swapping between basses with different configs that's the problem, OK, on a lined neck I should be working to the line, but somehow the brain seems to see the dots first!

[solo4652]

And I thought it was just me - phew! I can really understand Beedster's rant.

Having intonation problems with my fretless, I measured the distances from the nut to the frets on my fretted G&L to see if they were the same as the nut-to-dot distances on the fretless. They weren't, and I was instantly confused. Not knowing whether the dots on the fretless coincided with frets or notes, I used the electronic tuner to check what the dot positions corresponded to. The answer was - notes. Well, at least I then knew I should press the strings onto the dots rather than into the spaces between the dots.

This is the main thing that makes it so hard to switch between fretted and fretless, I reckon.

Steve

[KevB]

I might be being a bit stupid here but if I've understood the original post correctly you have an unlined neck which you like and which has the dots in the right place but would prefer the extra security of having lines on the neck. Can't someone just put some lines on the unlined neck for you?

[Davo-London]

Surely if it is lined, then the dots are performing anoher function, which is where the notes are i.e. on a 4-string bass, they highlight the G, A, B, C# and E. Just like a fretted bass. Can't see the problem at all.

However an unlined neck with dot markers where they would be on a fretted bass. Well yes that's worth a rant and should stop any potential buyer from getting such a bass.

Davo

[Beedster]

[quote name='KevB' post='636735' date='Oct 26 2009, 09:42 AM']I might be being a bit stupid here but if I've understood the original post correctly you have an unlined neck which you like and which has the dots in the right place but would prefer the extra security of having lines on the neck. Can't someone just put some lines on the unlined neck for you?[/quote]


[quote name='Davo-London' post='636740' date='Oct 26 2009, 09:45 AM']Surely if it is lined, then the dots are performing anoher function, which is where the notes are i.e. on a 4-string bass, they highlight the G, A, B, C# and E. Just like a fretted bass. Can't see the problem at all.

However an unlined neck with dot markers where they would be on a fretted bass. Well yes that's worth a rant and should stop any potential buyer from getting such a bass.

Davo[/quote]

I need a lined neck for a recording project, we're recording live and as it's going to be a one-take session, I want the fretless tone but with a little more certaintly of hitting the note first time, especially on the D and G strings. I don't want to line any of my unlined necks as they're mostly vintage, and I normally prefer unlined anyway. The problem I have is that having become used to playing to the side dots on unlined necks (which are all in line with the correct fretting position), it's very hard to play a lined neck with dots between the correct fretting positions. To my mind the ldots on such necks are distracting as opposed to helpful (although to someone who plays mostly fretted perhaps that's not an issue). Having had a good look around however it seems that most lined necks have dots between the lines, hence my rant! (Davo, remember that the dots on a fretted bass indicate the gap between the frets, that is the normal fretting position, not the note itself, so these dots serve no useful function on a fretless).

Chris

[SteveO]

You can get a pack of self adhesive labels and cut them into thin lines for fretmarkers (done this on a cello for a begining student) you can't hear any difference, they dont rub off from the strings and they'll come off easy afterwards.

Of course, if this is just a thinly veiled excuse to extend the beedster fold to one more bass then stop messing around and buy it, you don't need to justify it to us, we're not married or anything

[Beedster]

[quote name='SteveO' post='636793' date='Oct 26 2009, 11:24 AM']Of course, if this is just a thinly veiled excuse to extend the beedster fold to one more bass then stop messing around and buy it, you don't need to justify it to us, we're not married or anything [/quote]

LOL, that was probably my subconscious mind trying to justify it to my conscious mind!

[pete.young]

[quote name='SteveO' post='636793' date='Oct 26 2009, 11:24 AM']You can get a pack of self adhesive labels and cut them into thin lines for fretmarkers[/quote]

Car bodywork pinstriping tape.

[Buzz]

Buy a lined neck, add your own dots. Simples.

[fatback]

Don't be embarrassed about wanting lines; Jaco said in an interview that he needed lines. Something to do with the angle of the (longer) neck vs the arm changing too much for accuracy as compared to a UB.

As for side markers, best thing I ever did was ask a luthier to move those on my (lined) Yamaha bb400 to the correct positions. I can even play in tune without my specs now.

Laugh is, I asked him to make the new side markers luminous, so I could see them in a dark club, but he somehow forgot to do that. I think the unspoken message was: there are some things no self-respecting craftsman should ever be asked to do. Luminous, how are ye.

fatback

Edited October 27, 2009 by fatback