Effect on through body stringing on string tension

[GreeneKing]

I've taken this question out of another thread.

Here's something I don't understand. People often talk about increasing string tension by using through body stringing.

Here's my thought process:

If you take a string the tone produced is set by tension between fixed 'contact points', the bridge saddle and the nut. The 'stretchiness' or tension of an individual string is set by how springy it is in terms of how much it elongates when a force is applied. i.e. if there were no stretch in a string and it was rigidly mounted it would be bar taut and wouldn't work. Given that the longer the string is between it's fixed points (not contact points) then the more it stretches for the same amount of force applied (due to a greater length of string subject to the forces that produces stretch), which makes through body stringing lead to floppier lower tension strings.

Well that's my logic anyway.

Am I correct and therefore everyone who says it increases string tension is wrong, or am I having a flawed reasoning process?

Peter

[niceguyhomer]

I remember the debate about how the number of times strings are wrapped around the tuner posts affects string tension. I'm a simpleton but it all sounds daft to me - surely to reach pitch, a string needs to reach a certain tension and if you go beyond that tension, the note is sharp?

I dunno Pedro...we'll chew the fat over some suds on Saturday

[Beedster]

No doubt that a shallow angle at the headstock can have a negative impact on playability and tone so perhaps it's a similar phenomenon? Alternatively, it might be an incorrect extrapolation of the headstock effect to the bridge, where due to the steeper angles it makes no difference (i.e., a 15 degree change from 165 to 150 degrees might make a big difference at the neck whilst a 35 degree change from 135 to 100 at the bridge might make none)?

I've bEen drinking by the way

C

[GreeneKing]

I'm thinking I need to join you Chris

[xilddx]

Waiting for Alex to set this straight, I've had the same debate a few times, especially with myself.

[Beedster]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='638449' date='Oct 27 2009, 08:34 PM']I'm thinking I need to join you Chris [/quote]

You're with me in spirit dude!


[quote name='silddx' post='638451' date='Oct 27 2009, 08:36 PM']Waiting for Alex to set this straight, I've had the same debate a few times, especially with myself.[/quote]

The best debates are never resolved

[GreeneKing]

Well the nice BB2000 has agreed with my reasoning in the original thread

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53990&hl="]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53990&hl=[/url]

If you take it to a kinda stupid extent to work it through, if you had 10 feet of string fixed between the saddle and the ferrule it's plain (for me) to see that the string would be far more floppy. I don't think that thru body stringing makes a huge difference but I certainly don't think it [b]increases[/b] tension at all, barely perceptibly the opposite in fact.

[xilddx]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='638487' date='Oct 27 2009, 09:08 PM']Well the nice BB2000 has agreed with my reasoning in the original thread

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53990&hl="]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53990&hl=[/url]

If you take it to a kinda stupid extent to work it through, if you had 10 feet of string fixed between the saddle and the ferrule it's plain (for me) to see that the string would be far more floppy. I don't think that thru body stringing makes a huge difference but I certainly don't think it [b]increases[/b] tension at all, barely perceptibly the opposite in fact.[/quote]
I agree, to me it can only be the length of the string between the two points, ie. the nut and the bridge saddle. Lengthen or shorten that and the tension will change. Otherwise, how can it?

What is tension anyway? Elasticity?

[Ray]

I can see the logic in what you're saying but...

I always strung my Jazz through the body then one day I thought I'd string it through the bridge to see what difference it would make to the tone and sustain.

The first thing I noticed was the string tension. The strings had much less tension in them when tuned to pitch (using the same set of strings too). So much so I had to make a truss rod adjustment!

So, in my experience, through body stringing [b]does[/b] increase string tension.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='silddx' post='638507' date='Oct 27 2009, 09:31 PM']What is tension anyway? Elasticity?[/quote]

Yes, I think so, stretch or spring rate of the string. How much it lengthens with a load applied. In terms of extension/unit force.

I'm assuming here that a longer string will stretch more for a given load than a shorter one. Hmm....

[xilddx]

[quote name='Ray' post='638513' date='Oct 27 2009, 09:37 PM']I can see the logic in what you're saying but...

I always strung my Jazz through the body then one day I thought I'd string it through the bridge to see what difference it would make to the tone and sustain.

The first thing I noticed was the string tension. The strings had much less tension in them when tuned to pitch (using the same set of strings too). So much so I had to make a truss rod adjustment!

So, in my experience, through body stringing [b]does[/b] increase string tension.[/quote]
Mmm, but the string is longer at its termination points, so surely the (theoretical, ie. mine) potential for elasticity is the inverse of what you suggest?

[Ray]

[quote name='silddx' post='638525' date='Oct 27 2009, 09:45 PM']Mmm, but the string is longer at its termination points, so surely the (theoretical, ie. mine) potential for elasticity is the inverse of what you suggest?[/quote]
Yep! I would normally agree with you but it's just not the case for some strange reason.

[Les]

mmmm.....read all of this, now my brain hurts, so I'm going to the pub to ponder on it.

[Cat Burrito]

I have a couple of through body Fenders and a couple of toploader bridge ones. They all sound good. To be honest my head was hurting too much trying to work out which was better. They all sound good.

[Doddy]

The way I've always looked at this,is that on a 34" scale bass you need a certain
tension on the strings to achieve the pitch of the open note. The string will only
actually be vibrating in the 34" between the nut and bridge. The tension will not
be affected by stringing through the body as this portion of the string is 'inactive'.The
same way that the strings are at the headstock.
The only thing that Through body stringing does-I think-is give a sharper break angle
at the bridge saddle,much like having a string tree at the headstock.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Doddy' post='638552' date='Oct 27 2009, 10:06 PM']The way I've always looked at this,is that on a 34" scale bass you need a certain
tension on the strings to achieve the pitch of the open note. The string will only
actually be vibrating in the 34" between the nut and bridge. The tension will not
be affected by stringing through the body as this portion of the string is 'inactive'.The
same way that the strings are at the headstock.
The only thing that Through body stringing does-I think-is give a sharper break angle
at the bridge saddle,much like having a string tree at the headstock.[/quote]

I would agree Doddy that so far as pitch is concerned the scale length is the key.

But as the string isn't actually anchored at the bridge saddle, or the nut, but is free to move lengthwise over these points then the length outside of the scale length will still be included in the stretching equation.

It's not going to make a world of difference I know

Maybe this is a pointless argument. A bit like baddass bridges, brass nuts etc

Oh and I forgot, the worn through finish on a relic'd bass allowing the tone through

[EssentialTension]

There was a long and technical discussion of this at the old Dudepit some years ago. In terms of the physics of it, the only things that affect [u]tension[/u] are (1) pitch, (2) vibrating length, and (3) mass of the string per unit length. Neither length of string past the nut or bridge nor break angle at the nut or bridge can affect tension. However, tension needs to be distinguished from [u]compliance[/u] or how tight the string feels to the player. At least that is so according to this source:

[url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]Lutherie Myth/Science:
Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments://http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perc...cal Instruments[/url]

Edited October 27, 2009 by EssentialTension

[Mr. Foxen]

Problem with the 'science' way of seeing it, is that your are measuring the tension by pulling on the end of the string like the tuning peg, but thats not how you percieve tension in a string as you play it, where you are bending the string from straight to push it onto a fret. Fairly sure it's the increase in tension from doing that which you are feeling.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='638572' date='Oct 27 2009, 10:25 PM']Problem with the 'science' way of seeing it, is that your are measuring the tension by pulling on the end of the string like the tuning peg, but thats not how you percieve tension in a string as you play it, where you are bending the string from straight to push it onto a fret. Fairly sure it's the increase in tension from doing that which you are feeling.[/quote]
So what you experience would be not what the physicist calls tension but rather is compliance or elasticity.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='638575' date='Oct 27 2009, 10:27 PM']So what you experience would be not what the physicist calls tension but rather is compliance or elasticity.[/quote]

Compliance is what I'm considering here, definitely, if that's what we choose to call it, how tight the string feels when a load is placed on it. I agree that tension imposed by the tuner over the scale length to obtain pitch is another issue that is related but not the same. It's a static vs dynamic situation as I see it..

But as we're talking how the strings 'feel' in the dynamic playing situation then I'd go with overall length effecting compliance. Effecting it in that a longer string is more compliant not less.

Anyone need a project for Uni. I'm doing Social Work and I don't think I'll get it past my tutor.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='638601' date='Oct 27 2009, 11:02 PM']Compliance is what I'm considering here, definitely, if that's what we choose to call it, how tight the string feels when a load is placed on it. I agree that tension imposed by the tuner over the scale length to obtain pitch is another issue that is related but not the same. It's a static vs dynamic situation as I see it..

But as we're talking how the strings 'feel' in the dynamic playing situation then I'd go with overall length effecting compliance. Effecting it in that a longer string is more compliant not less.[/quote]
That's what the source I referenced seems to say about compliance or elasticity (if friction free rollers are assumed at the nut and the bridge).

Except the source also seems to claim that, while there are very few studies of the extent of increased compliance with longer lengths of string beyond nut and bridge, one study that was done seemed to show that musicians couldn't actually tell the difference.

[quote]It may be that people are exquisitely sensitive to differences in compliance, but the only study I know of indicates that they are not very sensitive at all. Master archtop guitar maker Bob Benedetto described a couple of informal experiments he made in this area in an article that appeared in American Lutherie #68. Bob built two simple demonstration “necks”. The first had a number of identical strings but with different scale lengths, the scale lengths varying from 23” to 26”. All strings were tuned to the same pitch, so according to the relationship between tension, pitch, mass per unit length, and speaking length, the strings with the longer scale lengths will be under greater tension than the shorter ones. You can take it as fact that this must be so (they are called laws of physics after all) but no one that had this apparatus in their hands could feel any difference in elasticity between any of the strings. Again, let me make this clear. The issue here is not that the longer strings were under greater tension – that is a physical fact. The issue is that people could not sense any difference in the feel of the strings when attempting to bend them.

The second of Bob's test necks had a number of identical strings tuned to the same pitch too, but this time they all had the same scale length. What differed was the amount of extra string length between the bridge saddle and the anchor for each string. With this apparatus we know that the tension has to be the same for each of the strings because the strings are identical and their lengths and pitches are identical as well, and we also know that the strings with the longer extra length behind the bridge saddle should be more compliant. But here again, no one that handled the apparatus could detect any difference in elasticity among the strings. [url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm[/url][/quote]

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='638613' date='Oct 27 2009, 11:16 PM']That's what the source I referenced seems to say about compliance or elasticity (if friction free rollers are assumed at the nut and the bridge).

Except the source also seems to claim that, while there are very few studies of the extent of increased compliance with longer lengths of string beyond nut and bridge, one study that was done seemed to show that musicians couldn't actually tell the difference.[/quote]

Hehe, and we're back to baddass bridges, brass nuts and paint thickness again.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='638620' date='Oct 27 2009, 11:22 PM']Hehe, and we're back to baddass bridges, brass nuts and paint thickness again.[/quote]
Correct.

[alexclaber]

Thru-body stringing increases the break angle, thus reducing movement over the bridge witness points.

Alex

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='638625' date='Oct 27 2009, 11:26 PM']Thru-body stringing increases the break angle, thus reducing movement over the bridge witness points.

Alex[/quote]
So thru-body, on that account, would lower compliance as there would be greater friction.

That could be correct but the difference might well be too small to make any noticeable difference. I'd guess a much smaller difference in compliance than from playing, say, near the bridge to playing over the end of the fingerboard. That would surely make the difference in compliance much more noticeable.