Need a bass for F0 tuning

[Dubhghaill]

So I've got a few quid coming my way soon due to Christmas bonus.

I'm looking for a bass that will be able to go one octave lower than my 8 string guitar, which is tuned to F standard (F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Bb,Eb).

I'm thinking about getting a 6 string, tuned F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb -but the high Gb is optional. I get the feeling I'll need a crazy scale like 36"+

I want something that sounds tight and punchy. Generally I love the sound of Stingrays and Wals, but this will have to be something completely different. I don't think the middy sound work in a mix tuned that low.

Thoughts or suggestions?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='Dubhghaill' post='639650' date='Oct 29 2009, 01:34 AM']So I've got a few quid coming my way soon due to Christmas bonus.

I'm looking for a bass that will be able to go one octave lower than my 8 string guitar, which is tuned to F standard (F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Bb,Eb).

I'm thinking about getting a 6 string, tuned F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb -but the high Gb is optional. I get the feeling I'll need a crazy scale like 36"+

I want something that sounds tight and punchy. Generally I love the sound of Stingrays and Wals, but this will have to be something completely different. I don't think the middy sound work in a mix tuned that low.

Thoughts or suggestions?[/quote]

Not any use to you but why do you need the low F?

[Dubhghaill]

[quote name='jake_tenfloors' post='640359' date='Oct 29 2009, 07:34 PM']Not any use to you but why do you need the low F?[/quote]

Because my guitar is tuned to F1. I'm currently using my Schecter 5 string tuned to F but it's floppy because I only have a 135 on the low B which isn't thick enough.

Example here: [url="http://media.andydoyle.co.uk/mp3/second-8-string-clip.mp3"]http://media.andydoyle.co.uk/mp3/second-8-string-clip.mp3[/url]

[Mr. Foxen]

Bascially, low F is below nhuman hearing range, and far, far below the range any cab you can get will actually produce. You can get strings heavy enough from Conklin, or Newtone might do them. Also there is the Warwick Dark Lord set. But really, not a great deal to gain by doing it. I struggled to get a low A to sound how I wanted.

[Sibob]

Plenty of stock basses are geared for the tuning, Conklin 7 strings, Warwick Dark Lord 4 string (tuned F#, B, E, A)

Si

[Dubhghaill]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='640509' date='Oct 29 2009, 09:21 PM']Bascially, low F is below nhuman hearing range, and far, far below the range any cab you can get will actually produce.[/quote]
That's simply not true. If you click my sample you can clearly hear the bass. Especially during the first two bars of cleans.

[quote name='Sibob' post='640514' date='Oct 29 2009, 09:30 PM']Plenty of stock basses are geared for the tuning, Conklin 7 strings, Warwick Dark Lord 4 string (tuned F#, B, E, A)[/quote]
I think the Warwick Dark Lord looks quite ugly, but sounds perfect for what I want. Shame they are over £1,000. I don't think I want to spend that much, this won't be my primary bass! Maybe I can find a cheap second hand one...

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Dubhghaill' post='640604' date='Oct 29 2009, 11:17 PM']That's simply not true. If you click my sample you can clearly hear the bass. Especially during the first two bars of cleans.[/quote]

I can hear the harmonics, but not the fundamental. [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474354"]Considerable discussion on the matter here.[/url]

If you are actually trying to get below the sound of the guitar, its a losing battle, carving a space with eq is viable, but you can do that without detuning, and playing a standard F, and having a bottomier sound.

[Sibob]

You can obviouslt pick up cheaper basses for the cause, but it's whether they're going to be any better at the tuning than what you're already doing!?.

When I was putting my 4 string Jazz bass together for Drop C (in my avatar), I basically ordered some high tension strings (45-105) from Newtone and had a Shuker neck built with 2 carbon fibre reinforcement rods so that it wouldn't have issues with the extra tension. I could probably put even heavier tension strings on and have no problems, giving me very low yet non-flappy action.

Si

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Dubhghaill' post='640435' date='Oct 29 2009, 07:57 PM']Because my guitar is tuned to F1. I'm currently using my Schecter 5 string tuned to F but it's floppy because I only have a 135 on the low B which isn't thick enough.

Example here: [url="http://media.andydoyle.co.uk/mp3/second-8-string-clip.mp3"]http://media.andydoyle.co.uk/mp3/second-8-string-clip.mp3[/url][/quote]
Meshuggah-tastic. (that's meant as a compliment )

Also, nice cat.

In terms of a bass, if you want a longer scale (and the Schecter 5s are 35", are they not?) you'll be looking at used or custom.

Maybe better investing in some strings designed for F/F# tuning rather than a new bass, especially on a budget? I think you'll have to spend quite a bit to get a significant improvement on what you have.

[Sibob]

The problem with any kind of custom strings, is that the bass might not be able to take them in both instances:

1) Go for super heavy gauges and they probably won't fit through the bridge
2) Go for super high tension (so as not to need such heavy gauges), but if the bass doesn't have a particulaly stable neck, it won't settle down so well.

Si

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Sibob' post='641049' date='Oct 30 2009, 01:11 PM']The problem with any kind of custom strings, is that the bass might not be able to take them in both instances:

1) Go for super heavy gauges and they probably won't fit through the bridge[/quote]


Taperwound and a top load bridge fixes that.

[Sibob]

Very true!

Hip shot do some nice top-loads, the A & B style bridges, all available in 4,5,6 & 7 string
Mmmm, Newtone High Tension taperwound....nomnomnom

Si

[ped]

Cool clip.

[TDM]

Speaking of Meshuggah, have you tried tuning your bass [i]up[/i] to F?

I think the bass and guitar playing in the same octave contributes a lot to the "djent" sound.

[funkypenguin]

what sort of budget are you talking here?

the fundamental is audible to human ears, but to get it to anything like gig volume will require some serious equipment. are you going to gig it? or is it a studio tool?

as has been said, the warwick dark lord and the conklin 7 stringers are probably your best bet unless you want to go custom

[Dubhghaill]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='641039' date='Oct 30 2009, 01:05 PM']Meshuggah-tastic. (that's meant as a compliment )

Also, nice cat.[/quote]

[quote name='ped' post='641079' date='Oct 30 2009, 01:49 PM']Cool clip.[/quote]

Thanks for the compliments

[quote name='thedonutman' post='641101' date='Oct 30 2009, 02:08 PM']Speaking of Meshuggah, have you tried tuning your bass [i]up[/i] to F?

I think the bass and guitar playing in the same octave contributes a lot to the "djent" sound.[/quote]
I do sometimes play in the same octave. But I would also like the option to have one octave lower.


[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='641039' date='Oct 30 2009, 01:05 PM']In terms of a bass, if you want a longer scale (and the Schecter 5s are 35", are they not?) you'll be looking at used or custom.

Maybe better investing in some strings designed for F/F# tuning rather than a new bass, especially on a budget? I think you'll have to spend quite a bit to get a significant improvement on what you have.[/quote]

[quote name='Sibob' post='641049' date='Oct 30 2009, 01:11 PM']The problem with any kind of custom strings, is that the bass might not be able to take them in both instances:

1) Go for super heavy gauges and they probably won't fit through the bridge
2) Go for super high tension (so as not to need such heavy gauges), but if the bass doesn't have a particulaly stable neck, it won't settle down so well.

Si[/quote]
Yeah, my initial thought was just to grab another 35" Schecter. They're pretty cheap and I like the way they feel. Then I can keep my main bass in Bb and this one in F. But my main concern is whether or not the bridge, nut and pegs will be able to take the huge strings. Plus I need to make sure the neck will be able to handle the tension.

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='641277' date='Oct 30 2009, 04:31 PM']what sort of budget are you talking here?

the fundamental is audible to human ears, but to get it to anything like gig volume will require some serious equipment. are you going to gig it? or is it a studio tool?

as has been said, the warwick dark lord and the conklin 7 stringers are probably your best bet unless you want to go custom[/quote]
Studio only, probably. And by studio I mean living room. I haven't decided a budget yet. If I go for a Schecter without having to mod it too much, I'll have enough left over for a DJ5 *drools*

So, the questions are:
[list]
[*]Will a bolt on 35" Schecter 5 need much modification to use those thicker strings?
[*]The EMG-Hz pickups are OK, but not great. I'm not sure they'd handle the low frequencies too well. Should I replace them?
[/list]

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='Dubhghaill' post='641290' date='Oct 30 2009, 04:42 PM']Thanks for the compliments


I do sometimes play in the same octave. But I would also like the option to have one octave lower.





Yeah, my initial thought was just to grab another 35" Schecter. They're pretty cheap and I like the way they feel. Then I can keep my main bass in Bb and this one in F. But my main concern is whether or not the bridge, nut and pegs will be able to take the huge strings. Plus I need to make sure the neck will be able to handle the tension.


Studio only, probably. And by studio I mean living room. I haven't decided a budget yet. If I go for a Schecter without having to mod it too much, I'll have enough left over for a DJ5 *drools*

So, the questions are:
[list]
[*]Will a bolt on 35" Schecter 5 need much modification to use those thicker strings?
[*]The EMG-Hz pickups are OK, but not great. I'm not sure they'd handle the low frequencies too well. Should I replace them?
[/list][/quote]

youl have to re-cut the nut to accomodate the thicker bottom string, and possibly modify the bridge unit, unless you're definitely using tapered core strings, in which case, the regular saddles should be fine.

I think it will depend on the preamp more than the pickups, as to how well it will be able to reproduce the low F. try the HZs and see how you go on. if they dont cut it, EMG DCs should certainly cut the mustard

the neck will take the tension of the F, but you'll have to set the bass up to take the altered tuning into account (action and truss rod)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Dubhghaill' post='641290' date='Oct 30 2009, 04:42 PM'][list]
[*]Will a bolt on 35" Schecter 5 need much modification to use those thicker strings?
[*]The EMG-Hz pickups are OK, but not great. I'm not sure they'd handle the low frequencies too well. Should I replace them?
[/list][/quote]

Depends on the bridge, anything where you have to pull the whole length of the string through a hole will be trouble. Supposing the strings are tapered (essential if they are big) a top load will sort you. Make sure the bass has a fairly generic nut, and you can fairly easily file it out to suit, or get a new one. Custom strings is the way, measure up your bass so they are thin on the bridge and round the tuners, thick in the speaking length. In fact, you could get them tension matched to a set you like in standard tuning probably, mail Newtone, they seems to respond reasonably well. Just cause strings are heavy doesn't mean they are straining the neck more.

As for pickups, I used 1/4 pounders for the Caricatures track, they claim broad response, and the mid emphasis meant the harmonics you hear are plenty strong, sounds pretty subterranian. The Terra Solis track was Dimarzio model ones and neck and bridge, trying to wring a lot of the fundamental out, a lot less recording trickery with that, mic and an mp3 player, but being in the room with it was pretty intense.

[Sibob]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='641318' date='Oct 30 2009, 05:08 PM']Just cause strings are heavy doesn't mean they are straining the neck more.[/quote]

Agreed with regards to guages, but if you do end up buying higher tension strings so as to get a lower action still, this will require extra work from the neck. As a result, a setup will be neccesary, and if the neck is decent it will settle, if it's cheap crap...it won't

Also remember that a new (top-load) bridge, assumung you're retro fitting, might not line up with the existing bridge screw holes....so will need to be fitted properly

Oh and a massive +1 for Newtone, I've always found ringing them quicker. You might not get hold of them now until Monday, but they'll definitly sort you out!
Si

[7string]

My ACG 9 goes down to F#0, so I'd recommend getting in touch with Alan at [url="http://www.acguitars.co.uk"]AC Guitars[/url] about a bass. They're great instruments and the price will surprise you. There's an ACG thread in the Marketplace part of Basschat.

The ACG pre goes down to 20Hz without modification, so it still has an effect on the extremely low notes. Definitely worth considering one of those in whatever bass you choose to get. I use a .165 for the F#, but you might want to go for that .175 Warwick string as the .165 is a little floppy.

There's always some negativity when you start to talk about low F's, but if that's what you want to do then stick with it. I can hear the F# perfectly well through a Laney 40w combo with a 15" speaker!

[Owen]

F0 is cool. End of.

[leschirons]

Can't comment on your bass requirements. I read your post because you appear to be working for a company that's still paying a Christmas bonus.

[d-basser]

Get a Dingwall, can't beat a 37" scale on the lowest string

[NickH]

Normal 5-string bass. Set of strings for E-C tuning. Raise a semitone and get a good octave pedal.

Use some of the cash you just saved to buy me a beer at Christmas!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='NickH' post='644861' date='Nov 3 2009, 11:35 PM']Normal 5-string bass. Set of strings for E-C tuning. Raise a semitone and get a good octave pedal.

Use some of the cash you just saved to buy me a beer at Christmas![/quote]

A good octave pedal that makes a solid octave down from the F would cost you more than a custom set of strings and a file. I spend enough time fiddling with them.

The problem is the amplification.