Acme cabs!!??

[tempo]

I know of only one uk user (alexclaber) who uses these, would appreciate some info from anybody about the cost of importing etc. I have done my own calcs based on the few imports from 'states , also how they might do in the "real world" with a 7, tuned low F# up. (I know the maker recomends low B as a limit).

[MB1]

MB1.

ACME CABS?ISNT THIS COYOTE AND ROADRUNNER TERRITORY?

BEEP! BEEP!

MB1.

[Delberthot]

I have heard that they are grossly inneficient but never personally tried them out

[Kiwi]

I've heard the same, but it doesn't it potentially mean you can pump into them double their power rating? Best to talk to Acme direct on that.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='17300' date='Jun 14 2007, 12:24 AM']I have heard that they are grossly inneficient but never personally tried them out[/quote]

I think grossly inefficient is going a bit far!

The Low-B2 is 93dB sensitivity (B1 90dB, B4 96dB). The greatest sensitivity you'll get from a smoothly tuned 2x10" is ~97dB, though if you tune a big hump into the response you can get greater sensitivity in the high-bass at the detriment to lower bass. All those numbers you see companies like Eden, SWR etc quoting are bs, plain and simple. Because the Acmes have essentially flat response they do not help your sound cut or punch through the mix with added midrange - but if you put a punchy sound into them it comes out unsullied - so they're not as obviously loud as other cabs.

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='17326' date='Jun 14 2007, 06:33 AM']I've heard the same, but it doesn't it potentially mean you can pump into them double their power rating? Best to talk to Acme direct on that.[/quote]

The limiting factor in terms of cab power handling is not the thermal power rating (350W on a B2 vs 500W for some 2x10"s) but is how far the speakers can move without distortion (known as Xmax). Typical bass guitar woofers have an Xmax of ~4mm. The Acme woofers have an Xmax of ~8mm. If you double the Xmax you quadruple the power handling, which gives you another 6dB of output. In reality Acmes can handle about 300W RMS per woofer without distortion right down to 30Hz, whilst typical bass guitar woofers can handle about 75W RMS per woofer down to 45Hz.

Acmes simply don't sound like typical a 10" bass guitar speakers, they sound full and even from low to high, essentially nothing missing. They don't have the usual hump that lives somewhere between the mid-bass and low-mids followed by a roll-off below 100Hz and plummeting response below 50Hz, instead they stay full down to just above 40Hz where response gradually drops to 30Hz and then plummets.

[quote name='tempo' post='5511' date='May 24 2007, 12:20 AM']I know of only one uk user (alexclaber) who uses these, would appreciate some info from anybody about the cost of importing etc. I have done my own calcs based on the few imports from 'states[/quote]

I can't remember how much mine cost but I do recall having to pay about 25% on top of purchase and shipping costs in import duties. But they're an incredible bargain - bear in mind that if they were being sold through retailers they'd be twice the price due to the usual 100% mark-up. They aren't a 'cheaper' option, they just cost less. Consider that when the Series I was launched there was no boutique cab market so selling through retailers wasn't an option as no shop would stock a bass cab that cost that much. And with the incredibly weak dollar they work out extremely good value even after import costs.

[quote name='tempo' post='5511' date='May 24 2007, 12:20 AM']also how they might do in the "real world" with a 7, tuned low F# up. (I know the maker recomends low B as a limit). [/quote]

They were originally designed for the low B, as that's their tuning frequency. I'd recommend using 30Hz filtering with them (either built into your amp or with a simple filter in the FX loop) as output and power handling drops below there. The good thing about the low F# on a bass guitar is there is very little fundamental content due to the shortness of the scale length compared to the wavelength so even if you had a cab that ran flat to 20Hz you'd barely notice its presence. Bear in mind the number of ERB players using AccuGroove cabs which are tuned higher and have far less output below 40Hz (even the Whappo Grande) and you'll see that none of these players are hearing (or missing) their lowest note fundamentals.

Andy Lewis really knows his stuff and although these speakers are great at the lows, it's the midrange and highs I love - the crossovers are excellent, really well designed and phase accurate and provide seamless integration of the woofers, mid and tweeter. You can use them as studio monitors, they're that accurate. And the build quality is second to none.

I could write more but honestly they are extremely well designed cabs at insanely good prices.

Alex

[Alemboid]

Not much to add to Alex's response. I was very lucky to get both my B2s in the UK so can't really comment on any import issues you might have but the delivery cost to the UK is surprisingly reasonable ($20US over the US delivery charge). Even with a worst case duty+VAT+handling charge a B2 should be about £350-ish, which is very fair indeed for what you're getting.

Huge power amps are ubiquitous and fairly cheap these days (usual plug for the Yam P7000s here) so the sensitivity question is not terribly relevant any more.

A recent gig had the sound guy scratching his head as the venue's half-decent PA with large-ish subs was incapable of approaching the sound of my two B2s. Bass extension & mid/high quality were obviously better from the Acmes and volume/SPL comparable.

B.

[tempo]

Cheers Alex & Alemboid! informative as always. I was thinking of a 700-1000w power amp to drive it, as i am well aware that deep bass needs real power. Most of the pa amps (mackie etc) have sub (30hertz) filters, so would employ that. Another question(s) though, I already have a Hartke 2.5XL cab, would this work ok with the B2, or is its higher efficiency going to nullify the benefits of the Acme? Can the B2 handle small/med gigs w/o pa support (my band has just vox & guitar in the pa).

Cheers Pete.

[Alemboid]

[quote name='tempo' post='18064' date='Jun 15 2007, 10:07 AM']Cheers Alex & Alemboid! informative as always. I was thinking of a 700-1000w power amp to drive it, as i am well aware that deep bass needs real power. Most of the pa amps (mackie etc) have sub (30hertz) filters, so would employ that. Another question(s) though, I already have a Hartke 2.5XL cab, would this work ok with the B2, or is its higher efficiency going to nullify the benefits of the Acme? Can the B2 handle small/med gigs w/o pa support (my band has just vox & guitar in the pa).

Cheers Pete.[/quote]

Tonally I've got no idea what the Hartke would would sound like in combination with the Acme. If you're ever down in the general direction of Oxford you'd be welcome to try it out with an Acme or two. If you were using a stereo PA amp, much as I do, you could easily drive one cab with each channel and adjust the gain to compensate for the efficiency difference.

Two B2s will cope very well with medium sized gigs and no PA reinforcement. Whether one will very much depends on drummer volume. The drummer I currently play with has a monster kit which he thrashes as if it's some sort of catharsis for him. One B2 is marginal with him, but if your drummer is more 'sensitive' (possible oxymoron) you'd probably get away with it.

B

[alexclaber]

[quote name='tempo' post='18064' date='Jun 15 2007, 10:07 AM']Another question(s) though, I already have a Hartke 2.5XL cab, would this work ok with the B2, or is its higher efficiency going to nullify the benefits of the Acme? Can the B2 handle small/med gigs w/o pa support (my band has just vox & guitar in the pa).[/quote]

The Hartke cabs are pretty insensitive themselves so I think you'll find only a marginal difference in output with the same input voltage, and the Acmes can handle so much more power that you can just balance the gain to get equal output. Interesting that you already have one of the few other cabs on the market with a midrange driver - you'll find the Acme goes higher and lower with smoother mids (though if your bass growls then the cab will growl too) and fuller bottom.

I'm confident that a Low-B2 as a standalone can play louder than a 2.5XL - even if it's marginally behind on midrange sensitivity the greater sensitivity below 100Hz precludes the usual need for bass boost thus levelling the playing field and then you have a load of extra power handling to play with.

One Low-B2 can keep up with (and somewhat drown out) most drummers but two are needed to handle the loudest animals. I still prefer to take two cabs to gigs because we're usually sharing backline and you never know how loud the other drummers will be but my rig is really cruising in our band, even with the drummer's big kit with 26" kick and all.

What's your band like, what kind of vibe is going on?

Alex

[tempo]

Thanks again for the advice Alex. My drummer is pretty dynamic, not a huge kit; we play pop/indie stuff (I know ...7 strings, overkill, ...I do a lot of chording.) At the moment I'm using an Ashdown EB combo+the hartke cab and it keeps up fine. (and sounds great)... but I'm wanting the sounds i get in my home studio, live. Probably too much too ask, Just seems Acme is the place to start.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='tempo' post='18592' date='Jun 15 2007, 10:18 PM']Thanks again for the advice Alex. My drummer is pretty dynamic, not a huge kit; we play pop/indie stuff (I know ...7 strings, overkill, ...I do a lot of chording.)[/quote]

Sounds like you're in a similar situation to me - nice dynamic drummer, lots of chording (though I've a mere four strings), reasonable volumes - rock and roll but not metal!

[quote name='tempo' post='18592' date='Jun 15 2007, 10:18 PM']At the moment I'm using an Ashdown EB combo+the hartke cab and it keeps up fine. (and sounds great)... but I'm wanting the sounds i get in my home studio, live. Probably too much too ask, Just seems Acme is the place to start.[/quote]

Not too much to ask at all! Trust me on this, one Low-B2 with 600W+ behind it is going to be comfortably louder than your Ashdown EB + Hartke, and it will sound like you hear through nice monitors. There are two contexts where I wouldn't recommend Acmes:

1. LOUD rock or metal bands where the guitarists knobs' only turn in one direction and you're reliant on midrange honk and growl and general nastiness to cut through their mess.

2. Where the colouration of your speakers is as much as part of your sound as the sound of your bass. If you do not love the sound of your bass (and preamp / head) straight through a mixing board and out through good (i.e. big ones or with sub) monitors then buy something else.

On the power amp front I can strongly recommend the QSC PLX or PLX2 series, I've been very impressed with mine. If you're looking for a nice preamp on a budget, keep an eye out for SWR Grand Prix or BBE B-Max. My new Avalon U5 arrived today, though the rack ears appear to have been mislaid in transit - once that's sorted my GP may be looking for a new home, after eight years with me.

Alex

[tempo]

Sounds like they're for me then! I've been doing some shopping around and some calculations, and have worked out that a Low B2 cabinet will cost £450 all in at the current exchange rate.
........So it's a couple of months off the beer to pay for one!!

Edited June 16, 2007 by tempo

[TPJ]

Have you looked through the [b][url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/"]Bill Fitzmaurice[/url][/b] (BFM) DIY threads? There may be an Omni that will give you the sound your looking for.

Cheers,

[tempo]

Hi, yeah I have looked at the BFM designs, they look like a fantastic option, but I have no tools etc to make one myself. I do have a cabinet maker 20 yards around the corner from home though, so may well look into it in the future. A nice omni 10 + tuba 24 would probably do the job (of annoying the neighbours) !!

[The Funk]

Any experience of their new subwoofer-type cabs? The B-2W and B-4W? I think they may be the solution to my low end problems. The speaker in my Hartke 1x15 just can't handle the amount of movement required. Sounds like the increased Xmax you were talking about in the Acmes might be the answer.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='tempo' post='19532' date='Jun 18 2007, 11:17 AM']Hi, yeah I have looked at the BFM designs, they look like a fantastic option, but I have no tools etc to make one myself. I do have a cabinet maker 20 yards around the corner from home though, so may well look into it in the future. A nice omni 10 + tuba 24 would probably do the job (of annoying the neighbours) !![/quote]
Tempo, Not sure if you know but Thumper is now an "Authorised Builder of Bill Fitzmaurice Design Cabinets in the UK." I am in the same postion as you, no woodworking skills and lack of Power Saw and Router. I know this is a massive plug, but hey-ho. I have been in contact with him a lot recently and he know has some fixed prices for both the Omni 10 and 10.5. Give him a PM if interested.
Back to the Acme Low B, I missed one at an insanly cheap price on e-bay. The guy who was selling, (based Leeds way I think), absolutely raved about them but did say you need a minimum 300w to drive them properly.
I believ they may also be distributed in Italy, but with the £-$ trate, the US is probably the best bet.
Good Luck,
Stuart

[alexclaber]

The BFM cabs certainly give you another nice and low budget option. Where they stand apart from the Acmes is they have less flat and less extended bass response and are significantly bigger - on the other hand this means they play louder with less power. That doesn't mean the Acmes are quiet - you'd have to be in a seriously loud rock band for two Low-B2s or a Low-B4 to not handle it. But the BFM cabs are very efficient compared to mainstream cabs and thus will reach similar SPL with about 1/4 the power and ultimately play a bit louder. For my needs having been through numerous theoretical DIY designs I've concluded that the single Low-B2 for rehearsals and two Low-B2s for gigs is an unbeatable combination - the pair give such a huge sound without PA support whilst a single cab is more than loud enough to hang with most drummers and just sounds so fat and clear compared to everything else.

One thing I have learnt is that any rig with true deep bass extension and output will conflict with any PA with proper subwoofers and you should thus keep the stage volume down and/or reduce your onstage bottom to avoid phase cancellation and reinforcement.

Regarding the B2W and B4W, they'll certainly add a whole load of output through the mids and lows, especially in the true lows below 100Hz where most bass cabs are pretty hopeless. However, with the small extra cost of the standard models and the fantastic fullrange sound with that 5" mid and dome tweeter, I think you're better off stretching to them and turning the attenuators down for sub use - but I bet you'll like the sound so much from the mids and tweeter that you end up using them as fullrange cabs. My only bugbear with Acmes were the protection bulbs but now you can have polyswitches which solves that problem.

Alex

[tempo]

Oh, I wasn't aware "Thumper" was a BFM builder (Though knew he had built one for himself) interesting if I did go down that route in the future. I do have my heart set on an Acme though, 'cos I am ultimately after a full range "flat response" rig, that i can colour through the pre-amp/efx.

[The Funk]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='25361' date='Jun 30 2007, 06:55 PM']My only bugbear with Acmes were the protection bulbs but now you can have polyswitches which solves that problem.[/quote]

How can I phrase this... huh?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='The Funk' post='25905' date='Jul 2 2007, 11:00 AM']How can I phrase this... huh? [/quote]

Acmes have always had a protection bulb inline with the midrange, tweeter and L-pads. If too much power goes through them the bulb absorbs the power (by lighting up) to protect them from blowing - basically like soft limiting. If you put far too much treble power through the circuit the bulb blows like a fuse to protect the speakers and L-pads. You then have to remove the speaker grill and top woofer to change it - it's a standard car indicator bulb. I used to blow the bulbs quite frequently in my old band because we were playing really loud, my amp was short of headroom and I was running pretty vicious distortion etc. Since I upgraded to a more powerful amp I never blew the bulbs again, despite continuing to use effects at high volume.

Anyway, Andy's now found a way that instead of the bulb you can use a polyswitch, which is basically a self-resetting fuse. If too much power flows through the polyswitch it heats up and its resistance goes through the roof, thus cutting the current flow and power. When the polyswitch cools down, business as usual is resumed. He charges an extra $10 for the polyswitch, which is definitely worth paying!

Alex

[The Funk]

Ah, I see! Thanks for the explanation.

Another quick question, if you don't mind - does it matter which way up you stack the B2s?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='The Funk' post='25942' date='Jul 2 2007, 12:21 PM']Another quick question, if you don't mind - does it matter which way up you stack the B2s?[/quote]

It is always preferable to stack any speakers vertically, for smoother and wider horizontal dispersion and more controlled vertical dispersion. It matters less with Acmes than with typical 10" cabs as the woofers cross over to the midrange speaker at 1kHz, whilst a standard 10" cab relies on the woofer output to about 2.5kHz.

When using multiple Acmes it is preferable to have the mids and tweeters in vertical alignment due to the comb filtering you will otherwise suffer - same with any rig with multiple tweeters. If you were to place a pair of B2s so the mid speakers were almost touching (so one upside down, both on their sides on top of each other) then the mids will couple and give you another 3dB of output - I've never tried that but that's what acoustic theory says!

You could certainly place an B2 sideways underneath a typical 15" or 4x10" cab if you're mainly using it to add bottom.

Alex

[The Funk]

Damn, this is some eye-opening stuff.

So, in theory, if you want the faithful reproduction of true lows that Acmes offer but with a mid-range bump like a lot of cabs have, you could stack two B2s on their sides with the top one upside down?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='The Funk' post='26034' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:12 PM']Damn, this is some eye-opening stuff.

So, in theory, if you want the faithful reproduction of true lows that Acmes offer but with a mid-range bump like a lot of cabs have, you could stack two B2s on their sides with the top one upside down?[/quote]

In theory, yes. Though it's probably easier to twist a few EQ knobs than juggle cab positions on the gig!

Just noticed you have a DB680 - with all that parametric EQ you could get any sound you could want from an Acme - and the WT1000 has plenty of juice to push one or two, with or without the Hartkes too.

Alex

[The Funk]

Is it wrong for a funk player to dream of a double bass stack? :|

I think I'm sold. Now my only dilemma is which Acme cab or cabs? Hmm... I'm thinking maybe a B2 with a B2W - at the moment I like using the built-in crossover in the DB680 to send lows directly to my 15 and I run the 2x10 full-range.

If I got 2x B2s, then I suppose I'd keep the option of doing it that way or running both of them full-range.

You may have solved my low end problem!