That Lakland in Guitar and Bass this month....

[Moos3h]

Right, explain to me how it can be so expensive and be made in Indonesia???

Sorry, I'm lost. That is mental money for a guitar built over there, regardless of the materials used - has anyone bought one and how good are they?

Cheers,
James

*** Subtitle modified to something less offensive - Apologies ***

Edited November 2, 2009 by Moos3h

[Platypus]

Well, how much is it?

[dave_bass5]

Yeah, explain some more.
What bass is it and how much?
Skylines are expansive considering they aren't made in the USA but they do get the electronics, setup and finishing done in the USA so maybe that's why they cost a bit.
And yeah, i paid £1200 for my current Lakland.

[Toasted]

I don't see that because anything is made in one place that it carries a maximum price that would be different were it made in another country. That's just armchair jingoism.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Toasted

[Moos3h]

My point is rather that given the constant grumble from specialist manufacturers is usually 'Our labour costs are so high....we can't compete on pricing' when based in the UK or other western countries (and America too, these days) it is understandable that such production being done overseas makes sense, to keep costs down and keep instruments accessible to all.

I can dig that, but if we're talking a £1k upwards bass, what the heck are your overheads if you're building in Indonesia and it's still retailing for such a massive amount of money?

I mean, I realise that with the exchange rate, we're getting stiffed every which way but if I was seriously considering dropping that kind of cash on a bass then I would look elsewhere, if that's Jingoistic then I apologize but it's how I feel*

Cheers,
James

* Says the man who regularly gigs a bass that is made from MDF and was probably assembled under horrific conditions in a developing economy.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Toasted' post='643481' date='Nov 2 2009, 03:33 PM']I don't see that because anything is made in one place that it carries a maximum price that would be different were it made in another country. That's just armchair jingoism.[/quote]

I often think the way people go on about quality and quality control in china and taiwan etc is pretty racist - as though "they" aren't capable of creating something that's just as good or better than a UK or US factory or something. I'm not saying that's happened in this thread, but I see it a lot on this board.

[wesfinn]

I've AB'd a few of these with the korean lakland skylines and the Indonesian built basses win hands down. much more attention to detail especially on the fretwork. the new basses have lovely rolled edge finish on them which is what i prefer and the necks feel a lot nicer.

[Moos3h]

I should also add, I'm merely asking what the deal is - I'm probably missing something which explains the extra cost, and perhaps what Dave said, that they are finished in the states goes some way to explaining the cost - we're also probably talking numerous different import/export taxes being levvied at all points.

Cheers,
James

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Moos3h' post='643487' date='Nov 2 2009, 03:39 PM']My point is rather that given the constant grumble from specialist manufacturers is usually 'Our labour costs are so high....we can't compete on pricing' when based in the UK or other western countries (and America too, these days) it is understandable that such production being done overseas makes sense, to keep costs down and keep instruments accessible to all.

I can dig that, but if we're talking a £1k upwards bass, what the heck are your overheads if you're building in Indonesia and it's still retailing for such a massive amount of money?

I mean, I realise that with the exchange rate, we're getting stiffed every which way but if I was seriously considering dropping that kind of cash on a bass then I would look elsewhere, if that's Jingoistic then I apologize but it's how I feel*

Cheers,
James

* Says the man who regularly gigs a bass that is made from MDF and was probably assembled under horrific conditions in a developing economy.[/quote]

These aren't mass produced basses though. Lakland are still a small company compared to Fender (for instance) so they dont have a huge factory somewhere.
And the USA made Laklands go for up to three times the price of the Skylines.

Personally if i was going to pay £1K+ i would want a bass that feels like i spent that sort of money. I got one of those so im happy.

[Moos3h]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='643488' date='Nov 2 2009, 03:40 PM']I often think the way people go on about quality and quality control in china and taiwan etc is pretty racist - as though "they" aren't capable of creating something that's just as good or better than a UK or US factory or something. I'm not saying that's happened in this thread, but I see it a lot on this board.[/quote]

I've seen that too, and it's certainly not the point I'm trying to get over here....I'm more interested in why the decision to assemble overseas is taken when the end price is still so high...is it BECAUSE they actually make a fantastic guitar in Indonesia, or would the same guitar being wholly USA-made be upwards of £2k?

I couldn't care less where the stuff I buy comes from, but I'm interested in the economic and practical choices for any offshoring and the implications it has. I've grown up in a country that actually makes very little, and it makes me curious of the factors involved.

[JTUK]

I take the point about labour costs; IF the western builds needs/wants/gets $30,000 pa for a workman and the far east gets $5000 pa, for example, then it isn't neccesarily quality we are talking about, it is unit cost overhead and should be reflected in the price. If it is, then fine, if it isn't then it is profitteering, but you don't think we get things built in lower cost countries because we like them or want to improve their quality of life... it is about return..

You pays your money..

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Moos3h' post='643500' date='Nov 2 2009, 03:50 PM']I've seen that too, and it's certainly not the point I'm trying to get over here....I'm more interested in why the decision to assemble overseas is taken when the end price is still so high...is it BECAUSE they actually make a fantastic guitar in Indonesia, or would the same guitar being wholly USA-made be upwards of £2k?

I couldn't care less where the stuff I buy comes from, but I'm interested in the economic and practical choices for any offshoring and the implications it has. I've grown up in a country that actually makes very little, and it makes me curious of the factors involved.[/quote]

Yes I didn't mean that you'd held or stated that view.

I would imagine that the finishing in the USA adds to the cost of the bass. If these are one third of the price of an "all american" bass that seems to be a sensible price to me...?

[Hutton]

I've just bought my first Lakland (Skyline DJ4) from Linus27. I have to say that it is a great bass. The price was fair and the bass was immaculate. It very easily compares to MIA Jazz basses. Would I pay the full price for one? Yes, I think I probably would such is the quality of these instruments. I now don't give a toss where a bass is built as I look at the bass itself to determine if it is a quality instrument or not.

[wateroftyne]

Don't worry, Moos3h.. I get your point.

I'm sure they're probably great basses built by skilled staff, but... are they built by a small team, or are they coming off production lines?

[GreeneKing]

I don't know but if you're talking the Lakland Decade with 'Hum cancellers' maybe you need to check out the equivalent cost of the US ones before you start having a go?

The low standard of living is taken advantage of by the West in order to supply cheaper basses to Western punters. We benefit from people who live in conditions we wouldn't tolerate ourselves. To moan about paying too much for a bass because of this seems to me like perpetuating what could be seen as an offensive practice.

[Clarky]

Shoot me down but there's some very 'right on' answers here and I don't think that the OP is saying he wants to perpetuate third world poverty

I suspect the answer to his question lies in the apparent fact that the bass is partly US assembled, pushing up the costs considerably

[Hutton]

[quote name='Clarky' post='643601' date='Nov 2 2009, 05:08 PM']Shoot me down but there's some very 'right on' answers here and I don't think that the OP is saying he wants to perpetuate third world poverty

I suspect the answer to his question lies in the apparent fact that the bass is partly US assembled, pushing up the costs considerably[/quote]

+1

I also believe that all Laklands, including the Skylines, now go through the 'Plek' process in the States.

[Musicman20]

Its just the same, in my eyes, as Sadowsky charging £1800 for a Metro Bass. Doesn't matter what country, as lets face it, its still a more budget version.

I'd love a USA Lakland, but it ain't gonna happen!

I've tested a few, and I have one on order, and believe me the quality, finish, and overall feel of the Lakland Skylines is top notch indeed!

[EssentialTension]

I have a Lakland Skyline Decade - I guess it may be the only one in this country, it was certainly the first here and was one of the first few out of the Chicago factory. Here's John Pirrucello stood in front of the PLEK machine holding my bass before it left Lakland:



Mine is the single-coil passive version which has a street price of $1259 in US and if you could walk into a shop and buy one here it would probably cost that much or likely more in £. Because I bought it when the £ was much stronger against the $, even with import duties and shipping, it cost substantially less - although it was still a lot of money. In total I waited 18 months for it. It's mahogany and it's 9lbs 4oz. It has blocks and binding and a coloured headstock - both of which put the price up.

Skyline bodies and necks are machined (in batches of thirty) in the Cort factory in Indonesia (formerly at the Cort factory in Korea, which closed down) using the same CNC programmes as US Laklands. Hardware is fitted in Indonesia but no electronics. In Chicago the bass has the electronics added - the same electronics as a US Lakland - is restrung, the frets are PLEKed, the bass is setup, and in the case of the Decades a bone nut was fitted.

It's a great bass with a real retro sound, one of the few basses with a true neck pickup, and a fabulous finish. I won't be selling it, it was worth every penny. I don't care where it was made but, anyway, it wasn't simply made in Indonesia.

From the Lakland website:
[quote]Lakland Skylines are designed in Chicago but made in a state-of-the-art overseas factory. Lakland determines all specifications and anything that can be done by machine is done by machine, including the fretting. Basses are manufactured in lots of 30 (or more) of each model. You may have heard about the long lead times - that's because we only have so much physical space, and it's impossible to inventory every bass in every color. We listen closely to our dealers and customers, and based on their input and orders we put into production the models and colors in demand at that time.

Most Skylines arrive at the Lakland factory fully finished, except for electronics. Lakland luthiers inspect each bass and do refinements according to an incredibly thorough set-up procedure that ensures each bass has proper string alignment, neck relief, fretting, tuner installation integrity, etc. The Skylines are then installed with the same electronics as the US models (except for the 01 models which are shipped with overseas electronics.) No Skyline bass leaves the Lakland facility until it's properly set up and in prime playing condition.

We know the customer might not consciously notice it if the refinements weren't done, but we believe that this incredible attention to detail is the reason most players consider Lakland Skylines higher in quality than most mass produced American-made basses. [url="http://www.lakland.com/skyline_vs_us.htm"]http://www.lakland.com/skyline_vs_us.htm[/url][/quote]

[martthebass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='643488' date='Nov 2 2009, 03:40 PM']I often think the way people go on about quality and quality control in china and taiwan etc is pretty racist - as though "they" aren't capable of creating something that's just as good or better than a UK or US factory or something. I'm not saying that's happened in this thread, but I see it a lot on this board.[/quote]

If you had spent any time out in China doing production quality audits you might have a different view on this.

Edited November 3, 2009 by martthebass

[Toasted]

[quote name='martthebass' post='644342' date='Nov 3 2009, 01:05 PM']If you had spent any time out in China doing production quality audits you might have a different view on this. I have...have you?[/quote]

Certainly have. I assume Dan Lakin has too. Like anywhere it depends where you choose to buy from. There are dodgy factories and great factories. Much like every other country.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Clarky' post='643601' date='Nov 2 2009, 05:08 PM']Shoot me down but there's some very 'right on' answers here and I don't think that the OP is saying he wants to perpetuate third world poverty. I suspect the answer to his question lies in the apparent fact that the bass is partly US assembled, pushing up the costs considerably[/quote]
+ 1. Our expectations have been conditioned to certain instrument manufacturers knocking out inexpensive, outsourced lines. So when someone - say Tanglewood - knocks out a £900 Chinese acoustic, those expectations are confounded.

That any of this has anything at all to do with 'racism' or exploitation by proxy is highly unlikely. Where did my TV come from? Or those trainers? Or my T-shirt? Or those prawns in the curry last night?

If I didn't use anything produced in a country of whose goverment I disapproved (quite specifically including the UK) I'd die pretty quickly.

[krispn]

I think the point is that these are still small companies making limited batches as Dave5 pointed out

A CNC body cut in Indo-China is no different from a CNC machine at Fender USA or anyone else but I think our perceptions of the Far East maybe date back to some of those terrible rip off guitars many of us owned when we started out!

It is certainly the trend that a lot of high end makers are doing this with finishing process/set-up in their 'native' country. I think I'd be happier with a bass made in Indonesia in a batch of 30 than a USA Fender made in a batch of ????.
These are HIGH END builders. While their prices are not affordable by any means for their particular product its the 'more affordable' version.

Like any of these things its about brand, build quality and what you can afford as much as it is about

Its no different from the fashion production industry. Gucci bags made on a production line in China sold for ££££ in up market outlets.

I am not attacking the UK builders here but we often assume that the Far East must be paying poor wages and have terrible conditions compared the the UK but what isit like compared to other jobs in that country?

By that logic I wonder what the wages are at UK builders such as Matamp, Shuker etc etc be interesting to see what holiday pay, sick pay, benefits and wage p/h is there as a comparison the Far East and who is getting the raw deal?

[xilddx]

When I was a nipper people used to, in a completely racist fashion, say stuff from Japan was sh*te, cheeky slopes copying our inventions and all that rubbish.

I think the OP was being a bit naive with his post but in no way was it jingoistic.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='silddx' post='644400' date='Nov 3 2009, 02:21 PM']When I was a nipper people used to, in a completely racist fashion, say stuff from Japan was sh*te, cheeky slopes copying our inventions and all that rubbish. I think the OP was being a bit naive with his post but in no way was it jingoistic.[/quote]

Indeedy. Though we didn't know it was racist, I recall the outrage when it transpired that the 1968 "I'm Backing Britain" promotional carrier bags were of Nipponese manufacture. 'Made In Japan' has come a long way, as evidenced by the approbation given to Japanese Fenders on this forum. And wholly laudable.

OED: Jingoism - "extreme patriotism in the form of aggressive foreign policy".

So, unless Moos3h is massing his armoured divisions in the DMZ ...

Edited November 3, 2009 by skankdelvar