holio.cornolio Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 This is sort of an addendum to my previous thread on what amp to get, I've sort of narrowed it down to the Trace elliot now, but I've only managed to demo the 715X which is outside of my budget really. I'm getting by with 100 watts at the moment, and the 715 offers 200 watts which I reckon is enough for me, but the question is, apart from the attenuable tweeter and the extra power, is the 715X going to be very different from the 715X. and why is only the 715x listed on the trace website. Is the 715 no longer in the range?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I imagine that there isn't a lot of difference in output on there own. The 715X will only belt out it's 500w with an additional cab. From memory the 715 doesn't have the compressor or the tweeter (as you said) I would think the 715 will be OK for small gigs. Anything larger you'll probably DI anyway. As an aside there are often lots of nice Trace heads and cabs in the classifieds. I kinda wish I'd gone down that route now. The 715X is a big old lump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The 715X has a larger enclosure so it'll be a bit more sensitive in the lows (sensitivity is the loudness you get out for each watt you put in). But it is a big old lump! Once you get to gear of that output IMO you're best off going with separate amps and cabs, especially if they're heavyweight ones. Alex P.S. You don't hear watts, you hear dB SPL. The difference in dB SPL between 100W and 200W into the same cab isn't very much at all. But get a bigger and more sensitive cab and 100W can totally flatten 500W into something smaller and less sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thodrik Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If you are using a combo on its own there shouldn't be a big difference volume wise. I've got one of the older GP7SM 300 combos with the 15 inch speaker, which is even more of a lump than the new 715x. I'm pretty sure that 715 has a compressor too. Also yeah I think they have recently been discontinued. They are still in shops everywhere though, I've seen two already this week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='643598' date='Nov 2 2009, 05:05 PM']... P.S. You don't hear watts, you hear dB SPL. The difference in dB SPL between 100W and 200W into the same cab isn't very much at all. But get a bigger and more sensitive cab and 100W can totally flatten 500W into something smaller and less sensitive.[/quote] Sorry, my question isn't well put. I'm not after more volume, the Rumble 100 ( :blush: ) I'm using just now can cope, but it's a bit harsh and farty, so I just need more headroom, and I figure that 200 watts will give me the extra gumph I need without getting all farty and horrible. I'd had an ashdown evo thing on loan for a while and I think that was about 250 watt (and 500 wit an extension cab), which wasn't much louder than the fender, but was infinitely smoother and cleaner due, I assume, to the extra headroom. Main problem is that I play fingerstyle and also with a plectrum (not at the same time though!). The fender is impossible to eq for both styles, and just copes really badly with the extra aggression that the plectrum delivers. The 715X I tried did both styles well, and I just want the 715 to be as forgiving of the pick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I just wrote a long post on this and then my computer died. But the gist of it was that amp power matters little and it's your speakers' ability to handle power (sadly not the quoted power handling) and and turn it into sound that matters. And secondly, look in the used amp/cab forum, there are many awesome deals to be had! For more techy stuff, click on on my signature and find the tech section. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 It's cone over-excursion that is killing your tone - you need more cone area and/or clean excursion ability. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='643747' date='Nov 2 2009, 07:23 PM']It's cone over-excursion that is killing your tone - you need more cone area and/or clean excursion ability. Alex[/quote] do you reckon a speaker upgrade would do the job then?? any recommendations? as you can probably tell, I'm not desperately au fait with the technical side, but I can wield a soldering iron and screwdriver with the best of them, and have no qualms about taking my amp apart if that's what it'll take. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='643761' date='Nov 2 2009, 07:38 PM']do you reckon a speaker upgrade would do the job then?? any recommendations? as you can probably tell, I'm not desperately au fait with the technical side, but I can wield a soldering iron and screwdriver with the best of them, and have no qualms about taking my amp apart if that's what it'll take.[/quote] Not really - because you're compromised by the internal volume of the combo and then 100W still won't get you that far (unless you're putting it through a 2x15", 4x12" or 6x10"). My point really is not to get hung up on wattage and to focus on having enough SIZE to go with the power. Bear in mind that a guitar has similar frequency response to a cello, whilst a bass guitar is like a double bass. Compare how much bigger a double bass is than a cello and the ratio of guitar amp to bass amp size should be similar if you're using similar power! If you have more power and speakers that can handle it then you can go smaller but physics really fights back against you if you go too small. I've heard there are Markbass LMII amps going used for under £400 and there's a nice Dr Bass 15/8 cab in the for sale forum going for even less, which would give you a rig which will spank a TE 715X to Land's End and back, yet carrying it there won't kill you. And plenty more deals to be had out there... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='643767' date='Nov 2 2009, 07:45 PM']Not really - because you're compromised by the internal volume of the combo and then 100W still won't get you that far (unless you're putting it through a 2x15", 4x12" or 6x10"). My point really is not to get hung up on wattage and to focus on having enough SIZE to go with the power. Bear in mind that a guitar has similar frequency response to a cello, whilst a bass guitar is like a double bass. Compare how much bigger a double bass is than a cello and the ratio of guitar amp to bass amp size should be similar if you're using similar power! If you have more power and speakers that can handle it then you can go smaller but physics really fights back against you if you go too small. I've heard there are Markbass LMII amps going used for under £400 and there's a nice Dr Bass 15/8 cab in the for sale forum going for even less, which would give you a rig which will spank a TE 715X to Land's End and back, yet carrying it there won't kill you. And plenty more deals to be had out there... Alex[/quote] This advice is useful and much appreciated.... but, we seem to have wandered inadvertently back into the realms of competing for volume (sound pressure call it what you will). My point is that the 100watt Fender can be heard perfectly well in the context of my band's loudest volume scenario, but sounds harsh and farty (and to be fair, sounds harsh and slightly less farty at low volume levels too). Cone over excursion is the culprit here and I bow to your superior knowledge and experience in this matter, (and also FWIW that's what it sounds like to my ears). So, I want a cost effective 'rig' / combo (pref around the £500 mark, give or take a bit), which will give me the same output (or more, more is fine too) as the fender, but without veering into distortion. I don't think I'll ever need an amp that would knock the 715x anywhere, I just don't play that loud, what I want is an amp that will cope in a quiet band scenario, without sounding horrible. In short, something better than a fender rumble (and I know that can't be hard to achieve). to give it some volume context, live, I am 'competing' with a Hot Rod Deluxe, which has never been above 2 on the boost channel, and an Orange Tiny Terror into a 1X12, set to the 7watt setting, and with the volume and gain at about half each. And a very gentle drummer. So a 500 watt behemoth is an unnecessary extravagance. That said, I don't really know what would be 'ideal' for this scenario, and the Trace seems to tick all my preconceived boxes. what was my question again?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Lots of (perfectly unstandable) misconceptions here! [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644458' date='Nov 3 2009, 03:49 PM']This advice is useful and much appreciated.... but, we seem to have wandered inadvertently back into the realms of competing for volume (sound pressure call it what you will). My point is that the 100watt Fender can be heard perfectly well in the context of my band's loudest volume scenario, but sounds harsh and farty (and to be fair, sounds harsh and slightly less farty at low volume levels too). Cone over excursion is the culprit here and I bow to your superior knowledge and experience in this matter, (and also FWIW that's what it sounds like to my ears).[/quote] We are not trying to get louder, we are just trying to get the same SPL without distortion, which therefore requires a rig that can produce substantially more SPL when pushed to the max. I too am not into volume wars - being in a band is about playing together, not fighting to be heard. But it takes a surprising amount of power and/or cab size to achieve clean lows in even a relatively quiet band. [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644458' date='Nov 3 2009, 03:49 PM']So, I want a cost effective 'rig' / combo (pref around the £500 mark, give or take a bit), which will give me the same output (or more, more is fine too) as the fender, but without veering into distortion. I don't think I'll ever need an amp that would knock the 715x anywhere[/quote] My point was that if you have a rig that can go louder then it sounds smoother and fatter and cleaner at lower levels, because it is exhibiting less distortion. And if it's also light enough to not be a pain to carry, costs no more and depreciates little then it seems a safe choice. [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644458' date='Nov 3 2009, 03:49 PM']I just don't play that loud, what I want is an amp that will cope in a quiet band scenario, without sounding horrible. In short, something better than a fender rumble (and I know that can't be hard to achieve). to give it some volume context, live, I am 'competing' with a Hot Rod Deluxe, which has never been above 2 on the boost channel, and an Orange Tiny Terror into a 1X12, set to the 7watt setting, and with the volume and gain at about half each. And a very gentle drummer. So a 500 watt behemoth is an unnecessary extravagance. That said, I don't really know what would be 'ideal' for this scenario, and the Trace seems to tick all my preconceived boxes. what was my question again?? [/quote] 500W is not a behemoth, not in the slightest. Just because you have 500W it doesn't mean you have to use them all, and in fact you never will except for very brief moments. Also bear in mind that 10W into a guitar speaker could easily sound as loud as 300W into a small bass cab, in fact at lower SPL the difference in power needs is greatest because our ears are so bad at hearing lows until you get up to stupid loud levels. Power is cheap nowadays and gear doesn't have to weigh a ton to sound good. I'd much rather have a separate head and cab if I was buying a TE rig and I'm sure I'm not the only one! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='644478' date='Nov 3 2009, 04:20 PM'].... Just because you have 500W it doesn't mean you have to use them all, Alex[/quote] No but you have to pay for them all, and carry them all too seriously though, I really do value your advice, and you clearly know your onions, but given that amp manufacturers don't quote sound pressure levels (at least in any obvious way to a numbnuts like me) I'm more lost and clueless than ever now. A combo appeals to me as it seems like a cost effective and convenient way of getting my bass amplified. I'm 34 and in good health, with no back issues as yet, so I'm happy enough carting anything up to about 30kg around by myself. I recognise that head and cab would offer me more flexibility and portability, but it also represents a likely bigger outlay. I can't really consider any of the undoubted bargains in the classifieds, since having 2 small kids means that any funds I manage to save are invariably snaffled to pay medical bills, repair wife damaged cars etc etc. What would you suggest for around the £500 mark that would do the job, and achieve the required, distortion free SPL?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644580' date='Nov 3 2009, 06:46 PM']I recognise that head and cab would offer me more flexibility and portability, but it also represents a likely bigger outlay.[/quote] Not if you buy used. [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644580' date='Nov 3 2009, 06:46 PM']What would you suggest for around the £500 mark that would do the job, and achieve the required, distortion free SPL??[/quote] Have a look through here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=20&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=...er=all&st=0[/url] Anything 2x10", 1x15" or bigger. Any 200W+ head. Or despite my anti-combo stance, this is a really great bargain: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62977"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62977[/url] Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='644641' date='Nov 3 2009, 07:53 PM']Not if you buy used. Have a look through here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=20&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=...er=all&st=0[/url] Anything 2x10", 1x15" or bigger. Any 200W+ head. Or despite my anti-combo stance, this is a really great bargain: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62977"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=62977[/url] Alex[/quote] If I understand holio cornolio (it feels really strange typing that ) correctly, I think this needs to be done on tick... Edited November 3, 2009 by Musky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Musky' post='644662' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:13 PM']If I understand holio cornolio (it feels really strange typing that ) correctly, I think this needs to be done on tick...[/quote] If it helps, that's not my real name. Those that know me call me... Matthew. Yeah, finance is the only way I'm afraid. Shoveling away £40-50 notes a month is easy enough, but when disaster strikes (which it does with alarming regularity) the savings pot is always whittled down to next to nowt again. The take it away scheme allows me the opportunity (assuming a 10 month disaster free window) to ensure that my squirreled away cash doesn't get accidentally spent on, oh I don't know, the deposit on a holiday or some such pointless bunk! It's a crazy situation, but I'm a weak person and when the kids need new coats / shoes / ponies, and I have a bit of spare cash, I just give in ;-) Edited November 3, 2009 by holio.cornolio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='Musky' post='644662' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:13 PM']I think this needs to be done on tick...[/quote] Paypal to whoever's selling? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holio.cornolio Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='644711' date='Nov 3 2009, 09:02 PM']Paypal to whoever's selling? Alex[/quote] good point well made..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 [quote name='holio.cornolio' post='644674' date='Nov 3 2009, 08:22 PM']If it helps, that's not my real name. Those that know me call me... Matthew. Yeah, finance is the only way I'm afraid. Shoveling away £40-50 notes a month is easy enough, but when disaster strikes (which it does with alarming regularity) the savings pot is always whittled down to next to nowt again. The take it away scheme allows me the opportunity (assuming a 10 month disaster free window) to ensure that my squirreled away cash doesn't get accidentally spent on, oh I don't know, the deposit on a holiday or some such pointless bunk! It's a crazy situation, but I'm a weak person and when the kids need new coats / shoes / ponies, and I have a bit of spare cash, I just give in ;-)[/quote] Yeah, I didn't think it was your real name. I assumed it was a reference to to this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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