Reading the 'dots'

[FuNkShUi]

2 years ago when i started playing i wanted to understand how musical notation worked. So i kinda taught myself as best i could. Could never say i could read it, but i could understand it, and given 15 mins with music, i could work it out. 2 years later and ive decided to pick it up again. I have lessons with a great teacher, and he has leant me a book to work from. Only problem being the songs in the book are by Stanley Clarke,Marcus Miller and Jaco. Great book, and great songs and usually love to play. But I could do with working on some less complicated pieces of music for the time being, to ensure im actually reading it, not just playing it how i know it sounds ( i try my best not to do this, but just cant help it sometimes ) So, does anyone have any recommendations they found useful when learning?

[Bilbo]

F. Simandl, beginner trombone books, try my transcriptions of Milt Hinton and Ron Carter (under Theory and Technique), other transcriptions I have done here have been pretty easy reads (some less so).

Most of all; be patient and be kind (to yourself).

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='646438' date='Nov 5 2009, 05:00 PM']F. Simandl, beginner trombone books, try my transcriptions of Milt Hinton and Ron Carter (under Theory and Technique), other transcriptions I have done here have been pretty easy reads (some less so).

Most of all; be patient and be kind (to yourself).[/quote]

Cheers Rob, ill have a look at them over the weekend and let you know how i get on. I know what your on about being patient!! Been going wrong on bits i know i can play, but finding it hard to see whats coming (notes-wise) and play at the same time. Kind of like the "bottleneck" effect when your learning to drive a car im guessin!! ill persevere

[XB26354]

I'd just add that access to as much varied music as you can really helps to improve your reading. I'd recommend all the above - anything that starts off simple and stays within the first five frets (as this is where most meat and potatoes bass happens anyway). When you do change position and shift up the neck, try practicing same-string shifts of four, the five then six frets etc. slowly without looking at the neck. After a little while you can "feel" where the shift is. Best of luck and persevere. My first reading gig was with a Sunday big band - 400 page book of written notation only with NO chord symbols, no timing indication (other than "fast", "med" or "ballad") and a 30-piece brass and horn section plus a psychotic piano bandleader to keep happy! I survived by the skin of my teeth (and played a lot more wrong than right notes) but learnt a huge amount. Building Walking Bass Lines and Expanding Walking Bass Lines by Ed Friedland will get you well-versed in quarter notes. When you get a bit better try some cello stuff (like some easier Bach) as it is really helpful for all the twists and turns music can throw at you...

Rule 1 - keep playing no matter what.
Rule 2 - something played out of time sticks out a lot more than a bum note.
Rule 3 - always play rhythmic timings as written - new learners tend to cut notes short or leave them hanging over the beat/bar when silence is notated.
Rule 4 - always make sure the music isn't going to slide off the stand right at the tricky bit
Rule 5 - TAKE YOUR EYES OF THE DANCING GIRLS IN FRONT OF YOU

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='XB26354' post='646731' date='Nov 5 2009, 09:43 PM']Rule 5 - TAKE YOUR EYES OF THE DANCING GIRLS IN FRONT OF YOU [/quote]
Professional bass players.... looking at dancing girls....? You don't know what you're talking about

[OutToPlayJazz]

Have a look at Double Bass Solo 1 (Oxford University Press.) That gives you a wide range of pieces and some very good fingering techniques. Then from there, have a look on ebay/amazon for a copy of Fred Paterno's "The Literate Bassist." That covers many styles and gives you some great line ideas at the same time as greatly improving your reading ability.

And basically, play as much from books/sheet music as you can. Don't memorize things. Just read them. Remember, you only get better at things by doing them

[chardbass]

Sounds like you've been given "Basslines" by Joe Hubbard?

The Simandl books suggested by Bilbo are great.

Reading is about conquering 2 main elements- pitched notation, and rhythm. More often than not it's the rhythmic element that can undo many a player.

This would be a great £6 invested and will keep you going forever

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Reading-Text-4-Instruments/dp/0769233775/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257501890&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Reading-Tex...1890&sr=8-1[/url]

Another added twist on bass and guitar is [i]where[/i] you play the notes, as there will nearly always be more than one option.

[Bilbo]

I actually find that the biggest issue with reading music is acquiring the concentration and focus required to remember that this what you are doing and not letting your mind wander. Its particularly bad when you are practising. I find that trying to read stuff whilst playing along with the music is the best way of learning the discipline as the thing about keeping going is so true. I agree that a rhythmically strong wrong note is often more use than a weak right note (loud, confident and wrong, as one wise colleague said to me once). Creating the right groove is often more important than hitting the right notes and, if you lose your place in a reading gig, its often best to rely on your ear and knowledge of grooves to get you back on course. But all of this is learned by the consistent application of effort: the doing of the thing. Read, read and read some more. As OTPJ says read it, don't learn it. You don't need to know it because its written down! If you know it, you aren't reading it. It is sometimes interesting to check progress by reading a melody that you know by ear but have never played and playing it 'cold'. You will often realise that you are getting better quicker that you think.

Big issue, however, is the old key signature. So much music is written in Bb, F and C that, when you get a key change or a chart in Gb, you realise your skills base is shaky. Another one is gettign used to counting and odd bar that is 'out of kilter' with the general times signature; a bar of 2 in a 4:4 chart etc.

Its all good stuff, tho. Practice, practice, practice.

[Gareth Hughes]

I learnt to read from Chuck Rainey's Complete Electric Bass Method, Book 1. It does get predictable when you play through the same examples in all 12 keys, but then that helps as you learn to associate patterns with sounds. Here's a link:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electric-Bass-Guitar-Player/dp/0825624258/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257509722&sr=8-7"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Electric-...9722&sr=8-7[/url]

And +1 to all of the above, especially keeping the eyes of the girls/guys. Ooooooo.........shiny object..... AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH - what line was I on!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

[acidbass]

I'm completely self taught when it comes to reading too - there's a great book that I had recommended to me on this forum called 'Sightreading for Electric Bass', which although is mostly rhythm based gives you a great grounding in reading specifically for us bass players.

As for sightreading in a live performance - it's still something I'm polishing, having only done one musical so far where it was employed. I have one coming up now at the start of December however (Footloose) which will be another good challenge - thankfully the bass parts are relatively straight forward, save for the odd bit of slap bass.

Gareth - a bit OT, but I had you recommended to me recently by Trevor (whose surname escapes me), the bassist in Simon McBride's band, as we were discussing double bass tutors. Small world eh?

[chardbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='647042' date='Nov 6 2009, 10:49 AM']I actually find that the biggest issue with reading music is acquiring the concentration and focus required to remember that this what you are doing and not letting your mind wander.[/quote]

I find this applies when reading a book also- having to re-read paragraphs and sometimes pages when the mind wanders! It's not exclusive to reading notation.

Your point about keys sigs is a good one although in popular music today, the modulation is used so much that the last 16 of a song is always a bit "wa-haay!!" and you have the battle between ears and eyes that you also mention.

With Sibelius being used more often, where a handwritten part used to offer a bit more leniancy, Cb and Fb are becoming less of a surprise on a sight read.
Just please let it be on a simple pop bassline!

[Gareth Hughes]

Hey Danny -

That'd be Trevor Dyer. Good man himself. He actually took over my gig in Simon's band, which is cool as I had originally taken over from him a year or two before. Poor git had to be in Dublin airport for a 6am check-in to Italy with Simon this morning. Do we feel sorry for him........nope.

Give us a shout if you're looking any lessons anytime. I'm also got a few show books if you want to copy them - always a good exercise methinks. 'West Side Story' can be a bit of a roast to jump in on.

Actually, that brings us back on topic - does anyone have any show books/charts that can be shared for the greater good here?


[quote name='acidbass' post='647144' date='Nov 6 2009, 12:26 PM']Gareth - a bit OT, but I had you recommended to me recently by Trevor (whose surname escapes me), the bassist in Simon McBride's band, as we were discussing double bass tutors. Small world eh?[/quote]

Edited November 6, 2009 by Gareth Hughes

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='chardbass' post='647011' date='Nov 6 2009, 10:15 AM']Sounds like you've been given "Basslines" by Joe Hubbard?[/quote]

thats the one!

[FuNkShUi]

to everyone, thanks for all the advice. got enough here to keep me going for a fair while i think!! and like most have mentioned, i think it is concentration im struggling with most. but as already mentioned, practise should do it! thanks again gents

[XB26354]

One other small point - transcribing by writing down [i]and[/i] learning the music - really helps with your familiarity with notes, rhythms and melodic sequences. The added bonus is that it gives your ear a proper workout

[chris_b]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' post='646396' date='Nov 5 2009, 04:32 PM']....So, does anyone have any recommendations they found useful when learning?....[/quote]
When you think you're getting the hang of it, go to the library and get a book of sheet music, Abba's a good one, sit down and play along to the CD reading the music. It made me realise that I wasn't as good as I thought, and that Abba's music was better than I thought!

[Major-Minor]

I've said it before on this forum (and I'll keep saying it) - GET A TEACHER if you want to be a good sight-reader. You may think you are playing it correctly, but if you haven't yet developed good reading skills, how can you be sure ?
I've had new pupils come to me saying "Oh yes I can read music". Then you put something easy in front of them and straight away they show just how poor their understanding of the written note is.
You will end up with all sorts of bad habits/ misunderstandings that may take years to put right.
If you do sight reading regularly with your teacher listening and correcting your mistakes, you will make quick progress.

The Major

[lowdown]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='647136' date='Nov 6 2009, 12:17 PM']And +1 to all of the above, especially keeping the eyes of the girls/guys. Ooooooo.........shiny object.....[/quote]

Where do you keep them,in a jar?
I like to have mine on toast.

BIg +1 for a teacher,[for the reasons Major-Minor outlined]
When you start to feel confident with your reading,
maybe try and get into a rehearsal big band, this is great for reading in the heat of battle.
Most people in that band will more and likely be in the same situation as you.


Garry

Edited November 6, 2009 by lowdown

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='646438' date='Nov 5 2009, 05:00 PM']F. Simandl, beginner trombone books, try my transcriptions of Milt Hinton and Ron Carter (under Theory and Technique), other transcriptions I have done here have been pretty easy reads (some less so).[/quote]

Scuse me if I am being thick.... but where are the transcriptions you are talking about. We are in Theory and Technique??

[AM1]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' post='646396' date='Nov 5 2009, 04:32 PM']2 years ago when i started playing i wanted to understand how musical notation worked. So i kinda taught myself as best i could. Could never say i could read it, but i could understand it, and given 15 mins with music, i could work it out. 2 years later and ive decided to pick it up again. I have lessons with a great teacher, and he has leant me a book to work from. Only problem being the songs in the book are by Stanley Clarke,Marcus Miller and Jaco. Great book, and great songs and usually love to play. But I could do with working on some less complicated pieces of music for the time being, to ensure im actually reading it, not just playing it how i know it sounds ( i try my best not to do this, but just cant help it sometimes ) So, does anyone have any recommendations they found useful when learning?[/quote]

For a good variety of tuneage try the Bass White Pages. Try learning something that you've never heard and once you think you've nailed it, then listen to it being played and what the bass is doing. Even better if you are able to record yourself playing, even to a programmed drum beat and listen to how the whole thing flows.

I'm a much better reader than I am a bass player as bass is a new instrument to me so my learning experience is kind of back to front. If you keep trying to "learn" from notation, using pieces of music that you know, you will end up always working out bits of it by ear because that's your natural learning mechanism and it can be quicker and easier than the frustration of working through the sheet music piece by piece. It can be hard to break out of the self-conditioning of using your natural, easier and quicker (at first) learning mechanism.

You need to take the natural advantage of having heard a tune out of the equation and challenge yourself with learning the notation for songs you've never heard.

When you first pick up a piece of music, don't rush right in. Look at it and analyse it first - what is the time signature, what is the key signature etc. Once you fully understand the notes on the bass clef and can correlate them to the correct positions on the bass, you should start to be able to look at a piece of music, straight away "see" the relationships between the notes and visualise the rhythm and beat and HEAR that piece of music in your head before you even try to play.

Once you can visualise in your mind how a piece of music should sound, by reading through the score, the rest is just mechanics. Don't forget about rests, note lengths, phrasing, accents and dynamics. As soon as you can pick up a piece of music and read it and be able to hear how it should sound in your mind without an instrument beside you, you're on the right track!

[thepurpleblob]

As I've mentioned before, I come from a classical music background (percussion, not a real instrument but still ). I've actually noticed that the type of music - like most pop/rock - that we might be naturally interested in was never 'composed' with being written in mind. It can therefore be particularly challenging as many parts are full of some very awkward, difficult to write (and hence read) syncopations. Even then, if you nail it spot on, it still doesn't sound *quite* right.

I guess following Bilbo's advice and learning some material that started life being written as notation is making your life easier.

Something like that........

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='649236' date='Nov 8 2009, 10:30 PM']Scuse me if I am being thick.... but where are the transcriptions you are talking about. We are in Theory and Technique??[/quote]


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[thepurpleblob]

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[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='647505' date='Nov 6 2009, 06:28 PM']I've said it before on this forum (and I'll keep saying it) - GET A TEACHER if you want to be a good sight-reader. You may think you are playing it correctly, but if you haven't yet developed good reading skills, how can you be sure ?
I've had new pupils come to me saying "Oh yes I can read music". Then you put something easy in front of them and straight away they show just how poor their understanding of the written note is.
You will end up with all sorts of bad habits/ misunderstandings that may take years to put right.
If you do sight reading regularly with your teacher listening and correcting your mistakes, you will make quick progress.

The Major[/quote]

I have got a teacher, and we plan to do reading practise one session a month. I just thought id get some info on books i could be working on between those sessions. But thank you, i know your right, because without a teacher, any bad habits i could develop would go unoticed, and would be a lot harder to lose!

[FuNkShUi]

to everyone, thanks again for all advice given. Ive started practisin a few of the suggestions by Rob, but with varied levels of success!! whilst wishing the hours away in work this week, ive decided to take the "basslines" book i have into work, and im going to try and go through the whole book, just writing out what each and every note is. Hopefully this will make me more familiar with each of them, and will mean when im playing i wont have to think about what each of them are when reading. Will just seem like reading (thats the hope) Ill let you know how it goes.

i have started writing the notes out, and stumbled upon an arrangement by Jaco. "chromatic fantasy". I hadnt heard it before. Quite tricky to say the least!

Edited November 9, 2009 by FuNkShUi