Celestion bass speakers - orange label v green label

[Bass Culture]

I'm having two of Mike Walsh's Purple Chili 12" bass cabs made for me and I'm trying to decide whether to go for the orange label or green label neo speakers. There's a difference in sensitivity and frequency response between them as well as fundamental tone - by the sound of it. The green's are supposed to be more 'old school' and the oranges more mid-biased and clear. As each speaker seems to have different strengths I'm thinking of having one cab made up with each. Anyone had any experience of these speakers or care to comment on the one of each option?

Thanks,

Mark

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='648134' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:16 AM']I'm having two of Mike Walsh's Purple Chili 12" bass cabs made for me and I'm trying to decide whether to go for the orange label or green label neo speakers. There's a difference in sensitivity and frequency response between them as well as fundamental tone - by the sound of it. The green's are supposed to be more 'old school' and the oranges more mid-biased and clear. As each speaker seems to have different strengths I'm thinking of having one cab made up with each. Anyone had any experience of these speakers or care to comment on the one of each option?

Thanks,

Mark[/quote]The most important spec is excursion, xmax. That's what determines how much low frequency output a driver is capable of. IMO anything less than 4mm disqualifies a driver from consideration. And don't mix drivers, there are no advantages to doing so.
As for the result you can expect, a builder who knows what he's doing will be able to model different drivers in different boxes and provide you with charts for response, sensitivity and maximum output. Ergo, if he can't provide you with those charts...

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='648142' date='Nov 7 2009, 03:27 PM']The most important spec is excursion, xmax. That's what determines how much low frequency output a driver is capable of. IMO anything less than 4mm disqualifies a driver from consideration. And don't mix drivers, there are no advantages to doing so.
As for the result you can expect, a builder who knows what he's doing will be able to model different drivers in different boxes and provide you with charts for response, sensitivity and maximum output. Ergo, if he can't provide you with those charts...[/quote]

Ahhh, so there's a question to be asked then...

Thanks,

Mark

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='648143' date='Nov 7 2009, 10:31 AM']Ahhh, so there's a question to be asked then...

Thanks,

Mark[/quote]If you ask that question of the usual sources, Ampeg, Fender, Eden, etc., you'll get no answer, as they don't have that information available.
But any custom builder should, and if he doesn't, look elsewhere. Better service than what the usual sources can provide is the only reason for having a cab built for you.

[ColinB]

I've got the Warwick WCA112ND cab with the 12" Celestion Orange speaker in it - great mids, no oomph on the bottom E string. To be fair, though, Warwick does say that on their web-site and that it should be paired-up with the 15" cab if you want the full bottom end. I wouldn't know if putting the Orange 12" speaker in a different cab design to that which Warwick use could increase the bottom end, or if swapping the Orange for a Green in the same cab would achieve anything worthwhile - probably not!

Edited November 9, 2009 by ColinB

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='ColinB' post='649363' date='Nov 9 2009, 08:09 AM']I've got the Warwick WCA112ND cab with the 12" Celestion Orange speaker in it - great mids, no oomph on the bottom E string. To be fair, though, Warwick does say that on their web-site and that it should be paired-up with the 15" cab if you want the full bottom end. I wouldn't know if putting the Orange 12" speaker in a different cab design to that which Warwick use could increase the bottom end, or if swapping the Orange for a Green in the same cab would achieve anything worthwhile - probably not![/quote]

Thanks for that. I'm thinking of going with the greens now, as it sounds as though I might lose too much bottom with the orange labels. These are what Mike puts in ordinarily, so I think I probably would have done well not to start pratting about with his standard specification!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ColinB' post='649363' date='Nov 9 2009, 03:09 AM']I wouldn't know if putting the Orange 12" speaker in a different cab design to that which Warwick use could increase the bottom end, or if swapping the Orange for a Green in the same cab would achieve anything worthwhile - probably not![/quote]With only 2.5mm excursion and 69Hz Fs IMO the BN12 300s is a poor choice for electric bass. The BL12 200X will go a half octave lower and take twice the power before running out of steam.

[Nostromo]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='649708' date='Nov 9 2009, 02:21 PM']With only 2.5mm excursion and 69Hz Fs IMO the BN12 300s is a poor choice for electric bass. The BL12 200X will go a half octave lower and take twice the power before running out of steam.[/quote]

Hi Mark,

My advice is . . . . that Bills advice is well worth thinking about !

Bill certainly helped me through the deciding process when I was sorting out new drivers for by vintage Hiwatt Cab !

Cheers

[Bass Culture]

"With only 2.5mm excursion and 69Hz Fs IMO the BN12 300s is a poor choice for electric bass. The BL12 200X will go a half octave lower and take twice the power before running out of steam".

And what's your view on the Neo version of the same speaker, Bill - the BN12 300X (I don't know why but it appears the Neo 12" Green Label is rated at 100w more.)?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='649986' date='Nov 9 2009, 02:21 PM']"With only 2.5mm excursion and 69Hz Fs IMO the BN12 300s is a poor choice for electric bass. The BL12 200X will go a half octave lower and take twice the power before running out of steam".

And what's your view on the Neo version of the same speaker, Bill - the BN12 300X (I don't know why but it appears the Neo 12" Green Label is rated at 100w more.)?[/quote]
The 300x is also OK, but that extra 100 watts thermal won't be of any benefit, as with 4mm xmax they're both displacement limited to 150 watts, give or take.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='650070' date='Nov 9 2009, 08:44 PM']The 300x is also OK, but that extra 100 watts thermal won't be of any benefit, as with 4mm xmax they're both displacement limited to 150 watts, give or take.[/quote]

So the benefit will be in the lower weight of the neo driver but there'd be no performance benefits as such?

So if I have two cabs with the same driver configuration - i.e. the neo versions - does that mean that my 500w Little Mark will be too powerful for them? I'm working on the assumption that the 300w quoted x 2 8ohm drivers will give me 100w 'headroom' with an amp that puts 500w into a 4ohm load. Would that be incorrect?

Oh, and before I get too involved and forget my manners - thank you, Bill, for taking the time and trouble to guide a monument to speaker ignorance such as myself through the basics here!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='650088' date='Nov 9 2009, 03:58 PM']So the benefit will be in the lower weight of the neo driver but there'd be no performance benefits as such?[/quote]That's about it.[quote]So if I have two cabs with the same driver configuration - i.e. the neo versions - does that mean that my 500w Little Mark will be too powerful for them?[/quote]
Not at all, but if you put more than 150w or so into each driver in the low end they won't go any louder, and with enough power they'll distort badly.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='650108' date='Nov 9 2009, 09:12 PM']That's about it.
Not at all, but if you put more than 150w or so into each driver in the low end they won't go any louder, and with enough power they'll distort badly.[/quote]

Okay, I think I've got that. But in practice would it be unlikely that you would put more than 150w into each driver in the low end as the mids and highs would also take a certain amount of the available power too (I've got a horrible feeling this might be a really stupid question now I'm reading it back - but hey!)?

Edited November 9, 2009 by Bass Culture

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='650204' date='Nov 9 2009, 05:41 PM']Okay, I think I've got that. But in practice would it be unlikely that you would put more than 150w into each driver in the low end as the mids and highs would also take a certain amount of the available power too (I've got a horrible feeling this might be a really stupid question now I'm reading it back - but hey!)?[/quote]
Power requirements and driver excursion drop by roughly 50% for each octave higher you go.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='650250' date='Nov 9 2009, 11:22 PM']Power requirements and driver excursion drop by roughly 50% for each octave higher you go.[/quote]

Ah ha, right, I think the penny's dropping. So, by my rudimentary calculations that should mean I won't have too much to worry about? If my (4 string) bass has a range of 4 octaves to accommodate (low E to the E - for example - on the 21st fret on the G string) and I'm using both my 8 ohm cabs each cab would draw 250w of available power from an amp that puts out 500w at 4 ohms. Meaning there wouldn't be more than 150w available to go into each driver in the low end - from bottom up 150w + 75w + 37.5w + 18.75w = 281.25w. Or, more power than the cab would be receiving and therefore not enough to push past the 150w in the low end required to make distortion a worry. Is that correct?

Of course, this only includes fretted notes. With overtones and harmonics to contend with I guess - logically - the maximum power available in the low end could even be less...My brain hurts now.

Cheers,

Mark

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bass Culture' post='650374' date='Nov 10 2009, 09:06 AM']Ah ha, right, I think the penny's dropping. So, by my rudimentary calculations that should mean I won't have too much to worry about? If my (4 string) bass has a range of 4 octaves to accommodate (low E to the E - for example - on the 21st fret on the G string) and I'm using both my 8 ohm cabs each cab would draw 250w of available power from an amp that puts out 500w at 4 ohms. Meaning there wouldn't be more than 150w available to go into each driver in the low end - from bottom up 150w + 75w + 37.5w + 18.75w = 281.25w. Or, more power than the cab would be receiving and therefore not enough to push past the 150w in the low end required to make distortion a worry. Is that correct?

Of course, this only includes fretted notes. With overtones and harmonics to contend with I guess - logically - the maximum power available in the low end could even be less...My brain hurts now.

Cheers,

Mark[/quote]

I think it more depends on the harmonic content of the individual note you're playing at any one time, since you don't output all notes simultaneously!

I have been trying to get to grips with this sort of thing recently, and it seems Celestion use the 'traditional' method of calculating Xmax which is Xmax = (Voice Coil Length - Height of the Magnetic Gap) divided by 2. From what I've read this tends to give conservative Xmax estimates in comparison to other methods, including that used by Eminence which is based on the excursion at which 10% THD is reached. Ignoring the merits of one type of measurement versus the other, it still means that comparing different brands of speaker, eg Em v Celestion, is going to be like apples and oranges. More relevantly to you, it might mean that you've got a little bit of wiggle room. No-one's yet answered my question in the tech/repair forum about loudspeaker behaviour beyond Xmax (pleeease, anyone?!), but my limited understanding from t'internet would be that if xmax is reached at 150W LF, then an amp capable of 250w max is about right - it'll drive this speaker to full potential with enough headroom to prevent nasty amp clipping and you shouldn't get near the safety limits of the driver.
That Celestion actually models quite well in small boxes (he says cluelessly playing with the pretty graphs in WinISD)

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='LawrenceH' date='Nov 10 2009, 09:56 AM' post='650407']
I think it more depends on the harmonic content of the individual note you're playing at any one time, since you don't output all notes simultaneously!

You speak for yourself!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='650407' date='Nov 10 2009, 04:56 AM']my limited understanding from t'internet would be that if xmax is reached at 150W LF, then an amp capable of 250w max is about right - it'll drive this speaker to full potential with enough headroom to prevent nasty amp clipping and you shouldn't get near the safety limits of the driver.[/quote]By and large you're fine with an amp that has the same power rating as the thermal rating of the drivers, giving enough power to get the full displacement limited output from the drivers with adequate headroom to keep the sound clean. But some players prefer more grit to their sound and might like to run with less power, especially if tube based, while others may prefer the effortless headroom of an amp with twice the driver rating or more. To each their own.

[MoonBassAlpha]

I can't believe Alex hasn't chipped in on this one - must be too busy building speakers!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='651216' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:58 PM']I can't believe Alex hasn't chipped in on this one - must be too busy building speakers![/quote]

I'd hope so. Too much lecturing on the internet and not enough carpentry is that guys problem. See how Bill makes everyone do their own carpentry leaving him free to tell people stuff on the internet. Cunning chap.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='651246' date='Nov 10 2009, 07:33 PM']I'd hope so. Too much lecturing on the internet and not enough carpentry is that guys problem. See how Bill makes everyone do their own carpentry leaving him free to tell people stuff on the internet. Cunning chap.[/quote]
Why spend 14 hours a day in the kitchen cooking when you can make twice as much selling cookbooks?

[polyrythmmm]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1257846971' post='650407']
I think it more depends on the harmonic content of the individual note you're playing at any one time, since you don't output all notes simultaneously!

I have been trying to get to grips with this sort of thing recently, and it seems Celestion use the 'traditional' method of calculating Xmax which is Xmax = (Voice Coil Length - Height of the Magnetic Gap) divided by 2. From what I've read this tends to give conservative Xmax estimates in comparison to other methods, including that used by Eminence which is based on the excursion at which 10% THD is reached. Ignoring the merits of one type of measurement versus the other, it still means that comparing different brands of speaker, eg Em v Celestion, is going to be like apples and oranges. More relevantly to you, it might mean that you've got a little bit of wiggle room. No-one's yet answered my question in the tech/repair forum about loudspeaker behaviour beyond Xmax (pleeease, anyone?!), but my limited understanding from t'internet would be that if xmax is reached at 150W LF, then an amp capable of 250w max is about right - it'll drive this speaker to full potential with enough headroom to prevent nasty amp clipping and you shouldn't get near the safety limits of the driver.
That Celestion actually models quite well in small boxes (he says cluelessly playing with the pretty graphs in WinISD)
[/quote]

A Very Merry Xmax to everyone involved all the same. This is the most intellectual layman-decrypted thread on the matter I've ever seen. Thanks to BF and BC for the 'dynamic' you've created... I think I finally understand linear excursion, and driver volume limitations. Now if you guys could have a nice back and forth re: Apparent volume of tube watts versus SS, and how this manifests itself in the arena of driver calculations... ? ...

Edited May 7, 2013 by polyrythmmm

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='polyrythmmm' timestamp='1367924002' post='2070993']
Apparent volume of tube watts versus SS, and how this manifests itself in the arena of driver calculations... ? ...
[/quote]

Watts are watts, voltage is voltage, so apparent volume doesn't figure into driver calculation. The reason valve rigs sound louder than SS for a given wattage is down to bandwidth limiting (less lows so less power needed, leaving it for the important stuff for hearing), compression (very top peaks are lower, so louder on average), and harmonic distortion (added harmonic content adds impression of loudness, and bigness to the sound without needing more power).

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='polyrythmmm' timestamp='1367924002' post='2070993']
Now if you guys could have a nice back and forth re: Apparent volume of tube watts versus SS, and how this manifests itself in the arena of driver calculations... ? ...
[/quote]Nothing changes. The transfer function of tubes is different mainly due to their inherent compression; you can duplicate the effect with SS using the right signal processing. Speakers are dullards, they can't tell the difference between a volt that's tube versus SS sourced, so they'll give the same result in either case.

[Phil Starr]

To really understand loudness you need to know about decibels not watts. That's a little complex to go into a forum so you need to google it, you might find this useful [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html"]http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html[/url]

A watt is just a measurement of power, in this case electrical power. this means the maximum power from an amp. Music has quiet bits and loud bits, even the note you play starts off loud and fades away.If your loudest bits need 100W then your average power use may only be 3W. The biggest reason valve amps sounding louder is about compression and what happens when amps overload. Valve amps overload gracefully and gradually, they distort when overloaded but the distortion doesn't sound awful. Solid state amps distort by simply chopping the top off the waves and sound horrible. This means you can use a 100W valve amp to reproduce the average level of 3W or maybe even a little more without it sounding awful. If you get a peak needing 200W it will only be for a few thousandths of a second and you may not even notice the distortion. Demand a 200W peak from a 100W SS amp and you'll notice. Use a compressor with a knee at roughly 80W and 2:1 ratio and you can make the trannie amp sound just as loud. Think of it as being like the ads on telly. The peaks in volume are the same as the programmes but the average volume is raised because of the compression they apply to the sound.