I've confused myself with modes!!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Dundee' post='664991' date='Nov 25 2009, 12:59 PM']Heres an exercise that I use a lot either when warming up, teaching or trying to learn new modes.

If we take the major modes...

Starting on, say, G.
G - Ionian
A - Dorian
B - Phyrigian
C - Lydian
D - Mixolydian
E - aeolian
F* - Locrian

The exercise involves playing each interval of the scale on by one in each mode.
Play the root of each mode on the E string (going up one string punk rock style), followed by whatever interval your on.
So if we start with 3rd's we get a tab that looks something like this....

A----B---C---D---E---F*---G---A
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*--

So what we've done is play the root of each major mode in G followed by its 3rd.
See that Ionian, Lydian and mixolydian have major 3's while Dorian, phyrigian, Aeloian and Locrian have minor 3's
Then we progress to 4th's. so...

A----C---D---E---F*---G---A---B
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*---

This time we notice that all the modes have perfect 4ths, except lydian which has a sharp 4.
Notice that throughout this exercise we never play a note outside of the G major scale.

5ths,
A----D---E---F*---G---A---B---C
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*---

This time we see that Locrian has a flattened 5th, while all others are perfect.

6ths
D----E---F*---G---A---B---C---D
A-----------------------------------
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*---

This time we see that Ionian, Dorian, Lydian and Mixolydian have major 6th's while Phyrigian, Aeolian and Lociran have minor 6ths.

7ths

D----F*---G---A---B---C---D---E-
A-----------------------------------
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*---

Ionian and Lydian have major 7th's, while the rest have flattened 7ths.

9ths (For me 9ths are better to learn than seconds. Partly for the techinque building, partly because 2nds would be hard to hear but mainly because 9ths are more commonly played than 2nds)

G----A---B---C---D---E---F*---G
D----------------------------------
A----------------------------------
E--G---A---B---C---D---E---F*--

with 9ths/2nds we see that Locrian and phyrigian are the exceptions with flattened 9th's/2nds

I'd extened the exercise to 10ths (3rds), 11ths(4ths) and 13ths (6's) as well.

This exercise allows you to see how the modes are constructed 1 interval at a time. As you are playing the intervals at the same time then you are able to
1. hear the differences
2. Get those intervals under your fingers
3. realise that the major modes all use the same notes as each other but by shifting the root you get a totally different set of sounds as the importance of each note changes.

Hope this is of some help in getting modes under your fingers.[/quote]
Very strange. I've read this several times and I fail to see how this helps anyone understand MODERN modal usage. Neither does it address HISTORICAL modal theory.
It appears to be a series of exercises in interval playing. Very useful as such but nothing to do with the theory and usage of modes.

Dundee, I hate to sound critical, as you have clearly spent some time writing this, but I feel this will only cause more confusion for those new to the modal concept.

Try this, dear reader:

Play a C harmonic minor scale - CDEbFGAbBC
Now play the same scale but starting and ending on the G - GAbBCDEbFG
We now have a modal scale - still C harmonic minor but rooted on G (historically the G would quite likely have been a drone).
Look at alternating notes of the scale - we get GBDF - notes that make up a G7 chord (if we add the Ab on top, we get G7b9)
So while the G7 chord is being played, you can choose to use this set of notes to improvise over or compose with. The distinctive character of the intervals will give that exotic modal flavour which is so spicy. In particular, the notes Ab and Eb will jump out to enrich your improv.
But please be clear:
This is only one set of notes you can chose to play over a G7 chord. There are several others (depending on context).

And by the way:
Notice that in this scale (C harmonic minor), there is, contained within, a diminished seventh chord (or dim 7) AbBDF
This can be very effective for inclusion in your soloing when arpeggiated - and its easy to finger on BG. Again, these four notes fall within a G7b9 chord.

The Major

Edited November 25, 2009 by Major-Minor

[Dundee]

It helps with using modes because it breaks down the intervals within each mode one by one. For me it is far better to learn a scale through understanding it's intervals. So I'd always look at Lydian by saying it's an Ionian mode with a sharp4. Phyrigian is the aeloian mode with a flat2 etc etc
The exercise is a wierd way at looking at it but it is something that is clearer when played.
By playing through the exercises you can hear how the intervals change through each mode even though your playing the same notes.

As for historical context, I know little more than the basics when it comes to the historical basis of modes.

Anyway if I was to make 1 point when trying to get your head around modes it is this. Treat the major scale as a mode (because thats what it is) not as something separate. Modes are nothing more than sets of scales of which the major scale (Ionian) is 1.
I think a lot of people are confused by modes because they learn major/minor scales then get introduced to this apparently higher level of thinking.

[jude_b]

I think, for now, I'm going to have to agree with the sentiments of the original post title.

I'm afraid that when I've read the above posts, I still just convert everything into major/minor scales with appropriate adjustments. When I'm playing/writing I also just think in terms of conventional scales or chords. I understand what modes are, I just haven't found them to be useful in practice - perhaps that's because I came to bass from piano, on which chords and harmonic relationships are arguably easier to visualise (at least that's what's implied by the use of pictures of the keyboard in standard books on harmony).

Perhaps I need to look into modes a bit more carefully before dismissing them completely - they clearly are of use to other people and it's always useful to consider alternative approaches.

I'm still surprised, however, that modes are introduced so early in popular guitar/bass books to, what I feel, is the detriment of conventional theory. I seem to remember having many conversations at cross purposes with guitarists who quoted modes without any real knowledge of the musical theory/notation that the vast majority of other musicians use!

All the best.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='jude_b' post='665689' date='Nov 25 2009, 10:34 PM']I think, for now, I'm going to have to agree with the sentiments of the original post title.

I'm afraid that when I've read the above posts, I still just convert everything into major/minor scales with appropriate adjustments. When I'm playing/writing I also just think in terms of conventional scales or chords. I understand what modes are, I just haven't found them to be useful in practice - perhaps that's because I came to bass from piano, on which chords and harmonic relationships are arguably easier to visualise (at least that's what's implied by the use of pictures of the keyboard in standard books on harmony).

Perhaps I need to look into modes a bit more carefully before dismissing them completely - they clearly are of use to other people and it's always useful to consider alternative approaches.

I'm still surprised, however, that modes are introduced so early in popular guitar/bass books to, what I feel, is the detriment of conventional theory. I seem to remember having many conversations at cross purposes with guitarists who quoted modes without any real knowledge of the musical theory/notation that the vast majority of other musicians use!

All the best.[/quote]

It's a common problem I fear - IME guitarists are often taught how to play patterns rather than how to read music. They then get caught up in the idea that because the patterns they have learnt can be interpreted as modal scales, that is what they have learnt (when in fact all they have learnt is how to play the same (usually Major) scale in a number of different places). It doesn't mean that teaching patterns is wrong - sometimes it's the best way to do it with the student sat in front of you - it just means that they shouldn't be encouraged to believe something about their playing that isn't true.... and that's down to tutors (such as myself and some of the other contributors on this thread) to do our job properly.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='665765' date='Nov 25 2009, 11:39 PM']IME guitarists are often taught how to play patterns rather than how to read music.[/quote]

This is so true of bassists too, and I suspect the OP has got themselves into a rut purely because of this. Playing in a certain way with no real understanding of how to break free of it. I went through exactly the same thing when I first started out.

I think they key to really developing your playing, is knowing your fingerboard inside out. Many people don't realise that a scale played in one position of the neck, Cmaj starting at the 3rd fret A string for example, will sound completely different tonally when playing at the 8th fret E string for example. Knowing how to use these subtle nuances with different playing positions can really open up your vocabulary, tone and timbre and make for much more interesting bass lines. Even how and where you use your fingering technique can all produce dramatic and interesting bass line work even with the simplest of notes.

Modes have there uses for sure and if you feel it would help you improve musically then go learn them. But learning to use your instrument to it's fullest potential as a tool of your trade irrespective of musical theory, will yield far better and more immediate results in the short term, but will put you in good stead for the long term.

[Major-Minor]

I can't see how you can even begin to understand modern modal usage without a firm grasp on the history of modes. Wikipedia has an excellent article on musical modes - well worth reading, and of course for those who want to look even deeper into this fascinating subject, leftybassman's truly excellent articles on Greek Modes on this forum are a must.

I don't know if this will help (or just make things even more confused !) but I've prepared a little example of how a mode can be used in a practical situation.

This is based on a mode I rather like - the Phrygian Major 3rd - not one of the common modes but I mentioned this one in a previous post. Its just the Phrygian mode with a major 3rd rather that the usual minor 3rd. It has an Arabic quality that I rather like (which comes from the interval of a minor 3rd between the Ab and the B natural).

I've chosen to root this on a G drone.
C harmonic minor - CDEbFGAbBC but starting on the G becomes:
GAbBCDEbFG

Using these notes I've created a little melody. In bar 1 the G drone appears, the melody starting in bar 2. In bar 6 I've added piano playing an arpeggiated G7 to show how this chord fits with this scale. In bar 14, I have demonstrated the diminished 7 that is within this modal scale.
I hope this helps to clear up some miss-perceptions. I'm sure you will all let me know what you think !

[attachment=37072:Modal_Example_1.pdf][attachment=37070:Modal_Example_1.mp3]

The Major

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='666054' date='Nov 26 2009, 11:35 AM']C harmonic minor - CDEbFGAbBC but starting on the G becomes:
GAbBCDEbFG[/quote]

Where's the Bflat if it's mean't to be C harmonic minor? Or have I missed something? Not that I'm picky or anything

[velvetkevorkian]

The 7th in the harmonic minor scale is raised a semitone compared to the natural minor.

edit: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_minor#Harmonic_and_melodic_minor"]Wikipedia link[/url]

Edited November 26, 2009 by velvetkevorkian

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='666733' date='Nov 26 2009, 09:00 PM']Where's the Bflat if it's mean't to be C harmonic minor? Or have I missed something? Not that I'm picky or anything [/quote]
Harmonic Minor has a major seventh giving rise to the lovely min II V I with altered dominant. eg Em7b5 - A7b9 - Dmin most people assume that the b9 is the alteration but in fact that (Bb) belongs in the scale. It's the C sharp (ie the seventh in D minor) that is the note that results from the harmonic minor.
Great sound giving rise to huge harmonic possibilities including altered dominants, lydian chromaticism and diminished scales

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='666733' date='Nov 26 2009, 09:00 PM']Where's the Bflat if it's mean't to be C harmonic minor? Or have I missed something? Not that I'm picky or anything [/quote]
There are 3 types of minor scale in conventional theory:

Let's think in A minor - it's easier to visualize the keyboard white notes:

A NATURAL minor: ABCDEFGA no sharps or flats (the Aeolian or Hyperdorian Mode)

A HARMONIC minor ABCDEFG#A the seventh note G is raised a semitone to G# to accommodate the dominant chord, in this case E7.

A MELODIC minor ABCDEF#G#A this scale was introduced to remove the minor 3rd interval between F natural and G# which was considered an awkward interval to sing. Of course, all this theory was developed during a time when vocal church music was the predominant musical activity.

So in my example, the C HARMONIC minor scale has a raised 7th (ie not in the key signature which of course has 3 flats including Bb) so that when the Dominant Chord of G7 is played, the B natural is already in place and can resolve to the tonic ©. This is why this note (the raised 7th) is referred to as "the leading note".

The Major

Edited November 27, 2009 by Major-Minor

[derrenleepoole]

Ah! My bad, I was obviously refering to the natural minor. That just goes to show that even after 20 years of playing it's easy to get terminology wrong! I must confess, I don't practice theory any more, even though I understand it at a reasonably basic level. It's certainly a minefield

[lowfer]

it feels to me that there are almost 2 schools of thought here. When i learnt modes i was taught that the different modes were the same scale i.e same notes played from a different starting point. It certainly seems that other people have the same thought. However, when the major talks about using modes he is introducing different notes from the original scale. This certainly sounds that it has the potential to add more flavour to your improvisation. However i am now really confused.

For me i am currently in the process of learning all the notes on the fingerboard so i have a much better understanding of all the notes in a scale as opposed to knowing the shape and leading from the root. Any suggestion for getting to grips with learning fingerboard would be great.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='lowfer' post='670350' date='Nov 30 2009, 08:00 PM']it feels to me that there are almost 2 schools of thought here. When i learnt modes i was taught that the different modes were the same scale i.e same notes played from a different starting point. It certainly seems that other people have the same thought. However, when the major talks about using modes he is introducing different notes from the original scale. This certainly sounds that it has the potential to add more flavour to your improvisation. However i am now really confused.

For me i am currently in the process of learning all the notes on the fingerboard so i have a much better understanding of all the notes in a scale as opposed to knowing the shape and leading from the root. Any suggestion for getting to grips with learning fingerboard would be great.[/quote]
If you look again at my Modal Example, you will see that not a single note is from outside the scale of C Harmonic Minor. I was trying to demonstrate how you can create a modal melody from out of all the available notes.

What you need to realize is that a modal scale (indeed, ANY scale) is not simply one octave (although that is often how we first learn to play scales) but in fact covers the entire frequency spectrum from the lowest audible sound to the highest. This is often misunderstood by the less experienced players.
So all the notes in my example are in the C Harmonic minor scale.
Also, I suspect you believe that a "scale" means playing adjacent notes either going up or going down. Again, this is how we first learn the fingering patterns, but in a broader sense, and for the purposes of composition or improv, a scale is simply a set of notes from which we can draw our melody. And it should not be thought of as a restriction (ie no deviation allowed) but as a starting point, a reference from which one can deviate in whichever creative direction one desires.

Actually you are right about there being 2 schools of thought re modes. If we talk about modes from a historical perspective, there was never any sense in their early history that modes were directly linked to harmony ( although this is arguable - for another time perhaps ?), whereas nowadays we ally each modal scale to a chord (or chords) for improv or composition purposes.

A good way to get to know the fingerboard is to play scales and arpeggios in 2 octaves or beyond, both up and down, in the traditional manner, saying the note names out aloud as you go.

The Major

[Sibob]

I think whoever said "Don't be a slave to modes" had it right, but I think that goes for all theory. Having said that, I completely agree with Jake's (and many others) viewpoint of having having facilities available to play whats in your head/heart.
If you talk to a lot of big big theory guys (who are gigging), I bet you they say that they aren't thinking about ANY 'theory' while they're playing. They're feeling.
BUT, they have spent a lot of time learning their theory, and it many of those cases, forgetting it also. A bit like driving a car, I'm not thinking about 'HOW' to drive, I just feel it out and do what is necessary for any given situation.

I teach the few students I have the idea of modes (by that I mean I don't pressure them to remember the names and talk about 'Modal' playing etc) because I like the way that, if you teach them in a linear sense, they draw parts of the fingerboard together in the context of a specific key. From a beginners point of view, they're the first look into some interesting scale shapes, and how subtle deviations from natural Major & Minors shapes can have an impact on the music. When you then combine them with some basic Arpeggios etc, a beginner suddenly has a lot more understanding and hopefully confidence with moving around the fretboard and not being totally lost.

I guess I fundamentally see them, from a teaching perspective, as an intervallic exercise more than anything else.
It also introduced me to Phrygian Dominant, which I'm vaguely in love with

Si

[Major-Minor]

Another thought occurred to me today:

If you are trying to understand what all this modal stuff is about:
It's quite useful to think of certain well known tunes to get the flavour and character of modal melodies ( and I'm referring here to the notes, not the genre/style/mood/groove etc ).

Scarborough Fair - the traditional folk melody - is in the Dorian mode. Although the distinctive Major 6th (from the root) is only heard once in this melody, it sets the mode quite clearly.

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen - the Christmas Carol - is in the Aeolian Mode ( actually a Natural Minor Scale - with its Minor 6th).

Miles Davis's tune So What is in the Dorian Mode - D Dorian for 32 bars, Eb Dorian for 16 and D Dorian again for the last 16.
But please be clear - we are only talking about the MELODY here - not the track itself, which includes all sorts of other chromatic notes.

The first 4 bars of the quintessential Rock n Roll bass line ( in key G would be GBDEFEDB GBDEFEDB ) could be said to be in the Mixolydian mode (although it doesn't quite tell all the story as there is no 2nd or 4th degree of the scale).

Jingle Bells (the whole melody) - is in the Ionian Mode.

Vaughn-Williams - Fantasia On A Theme Of Thomas Tallis - the main viola solo is in the Phrygian Mode. If you don't know this piece, i would heartily recommend you listen to it.

Can anybody think of other examples ? I'm struggling to come up with Lydian (Locrian ? Forget it !)



The Major

[derrenleepoole]

The whole of 'Kind Of Blue' by Miles Davis is an exercise in modal improvisation and writing.

[mikebass78]

[quote name='lowfer' post='670350' date='Nov 30 2009, 08:00 PM']it feels to me that there are almost 2 schools of thought here. When i learnt modes i was taught that the different modes were the same scale i.e same notes played from a different starting point. It certainly seems that other people have the same thought. However, when the major talks about using modes he is introducing different notes from the original scale. This certainly sounds that it has the potential to add more flavour to your improvisation. However i am now really confused.

For me i am currently in the process of learning all the notes on the fingerboard so i have a much better understanding of all the notes in a scale as opposed to knowing the shape and leading from the root. Any suggestion for getting to grips with learning fingerboard would be great.[/quote]


I think some of the examples have used the different modes all played starting from C which gives you more of a feel for the flavour of each mode and some have given examples of the the modes OF C started from the note relevant to the mode which gives you more info relevant to one scale.
saying the notes as you play scales over multiple octaves while using different "paths" up and down the fretboard has helped me, also refering the notes as thirds, fifths, etc while playing arpeggios+scales has been helpful with ear training.

[jakenewmanbass]

Hey Major , A fabulous Lydian melody is 'Inca Roads' by Frank Zappa. Really lovely melody. Frank was a big fan of Lydian.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='672480' date='Dec 2 2009, 08:57 PM']Hey Major , A fabulous Lydian melody is 'Inca Roads' by Frank Zappa. Really lovely melody. Frank was a big fan of Lydian.[/quote]

+1 What a tune!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='672440' date='Dec 2 2009, 08:19 PM']The whole of 'Kind Of Blue' by Miles Davis is an exercise in modal improvisation and writing.[/quote]
I know Kind of Blue very well. And I'd be hard pressed to find many examples of true modal improvisation in this seminal album. Yes there is the odd bar or two, but if the soloist introduces notes from outside the mode, it is simply no longer modal. In fact, how can the listener really know whether the player is thinking modally ? As I've said before, one can improvise using multiple modes over one chord, but then the music is no longer truly modal.

Same with the melody writing. Apart from the first 16 bars of So What, there is very little evidence of true modal melody.
Take the melody of "All Blues" for instance:
The first phrase (over G7) hints at mixolydian mode but as it has no 7th (F) it is unconvincing.
The second phrase (over C7) is more mixolydian in character with its flattened 7th but again, as there is no 6th, it is also unclear.
The final phrase (over D7 and Eb7) is too sparse to pass comment.

The point of this thread was, surely, to clarify modal concepts to those new to this way of thinking.
You can analyze most pieces of music and point to various nuggets of modal thinking, after all every scale is a mode of some sort, but for a newcomer, we need to be clear and precise, and that's why I suggested thinking about certain well known melodies (not their accompaniments or styling) that demonstrate their modal character.

There has always been a lot of bullshit surrounding the Modal Concept, and its only when you study the history as well as the modern usage that it starts to make sense.

As has been said already on this thread, one needs to have a firm and comprehensive grasp of traditional theory and harmony (as taught in the last 200 years) before looking at Modes, and I personally believe it is a mistake to teach bass players (or any young musos) about practical modal application until they are in their tertiary education (ie Degree level). But, as there appears to be many references to Modes in the early grades of BG tutor books, I feel we need to help clarify what all this means for the young player. If you teach somebody about modes, there has got to be some practical usage for this info to make any sense - and that is what seems to be sadly missing in these methods.

To give a young player the idea that, say, the Phrygian mode is somehow a scale fingering pattern in one octave, is a gross misuse of the word "mode" and will give that player confusion for many years.

If you are teaching the scale of (say) C major starting on E for one octave, then that is what it is : a scale of C major starting on E for one octave ! NOT the Phrygian Mode !!! which is something far more complex.

The Major

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='672875' date='Dec 3 2009, 09:30 AM']I know Kind of Blue very well. And I'd be hard pressed to find many examples of true modal improvisation in this seminal album[/quote]

True that. But for the most part, the basic underlying themes and melodies and modal in construction. But yes, many of the solos do use scales/notes etc that fall out of the original modal frame work as conceived by Davis. However, as a bassist and not a soloist there are lessons to be learned from this album... just a thought. Peace.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='672875' date='Dec 3 2009, 09:30 AM']I know Kind of Blue very well. And I'd be hard pressed to find many examples of true modal improvisation in this seminal album.

The Major[/quote]
Whist I agree with most of the content of your analysis I would offer you this point for your consideration, it's philosophical more than technical...
The [i]concept[/i] is modal. And taken in historical context that is all that's required for this to be the seminal album we all (seem to) agree it is. I think Paul Chambers achives a good deal of modal playing as does John Coltrane and Bill Evans, whereas Cannonball is relying on changes that aren't there to get from point A to point B in the charts. You might argue that I'm pointing out the obvious, but when faced with an analysis such as yours I think it's easy for the reader to overlook this core concept and so it's pertinence needs to be added in to the mix.
Whatever the players do (and I agree much of it strays from the stated harmony) the structure is a modal one.

[Bilbo]

Just my fourpenn'th on the 'Is Kind Of Blue really modal'? debate.

My feeling is that the label of 'modal' wasn't put there by Davis or any of the musicians (unless Evans suggests it in his sleevenotes). The fact remains that jazz musicians use diatonic harmony as a starting point but use notes outside of the conventional harmony to create tensions, interest etc. It would follow, therefore, that they would use modal playing as skeleton to bounce off and throw all sorts of extra-curricular activity in there. So, if you are improvising in a Prygian mode in C, you would not just be playing the notes EFGABCD but using that as a 'point of reference' and immediately compromising it with implied substitutions etc. Is that fair? I guess that labelling a piece of art 'after the fact' is always going to present difficulties and inconcsistencies.

I guess the label doesn't really matter. Its the noises they are making that count!

[XB26354]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='672875' date='Dec 3 2009, 09:30 AM']As has been said already on this thread, one needs to have a firm and comprehensive grasp of traditional theory and harmony (as taught in the last 200 years) before looking at Modes, and I personally believe it is a mistake to teach bass players (or any young musos) about practical modal application until they are in their tertiary education (ie Degree level). But, as there appears to be many references to Modes in the early grades of BG tutor books, I feel we need to help clarify what all this means for the young player. If you teach somebody about modes, there has got to be some practical usage for this info to make any sense - and that is what seems to be sadly missing in these methods.
The Major[/quote]

What kind of musical education are you talking about here? Classical? If so then it doesn't really apply in the same way to musicians who play "current" musical instruments. There are no defined methods for playing guitar, bass or drums that are universally accepted. As these instruments are highly unlikely to be used for classical music performance the most complex music they're likely to play is jazz, and jazz is a notoriously difficult music to write down, as it is very much down to individual interpretation. That is why dynamics and tempo variance are virutally never indicated in jazz, other than accents or short/long notes. Most jazz musicians go to music college (if they go at all) which is already at tertiary level. As Mark Levine says in the Jazz Theory Book, classical music is ear and eye music but jazz is almost entirely ear music. To the jazz improviser the Dorian mode is just an available pool of notes to draw open over a certain sound. Kind of Blue fits that interpretation - there is chromaticism within each tune but then that is a basic hallmark of jazz.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='XB26354' post='673170' date='Dec 3 2009, 01:39 PM']What kind of musical education are you talking about here? Classical? If so then it doesn't really apply in the same way to musicians who play "current" musical instruments. There are no defined methods for playing guitar, bass or drums that are universally accepted. As these instruments are highly unlikely to be used for classical music performance the most complex music they're likely to play is jazz, and jazz is a notoriously difficult music to write down, as it is very much down to individual interpretation. That is why dynamics and tempo variance are virutally never indicated in jazz, other than accents or short/long notes. Most jazz musicians go to music college (if they go at all) which is already at tertiary level. As Mark Levine says in the Jazz Theory Book, classical music is ear and eye music but jazz is almost entirely ear music. To the jazz improviser the Dorian mode is just an available pool of notes to draw open over a certain sound. Kind of Blue fits that interpretation - there is chromaticism within each tune but then that is a basic hallmark of jazz.[/quote]
I think we all broadly agree here. My main concern, from the start of of this thread, has been the fact that the less experienced players are clearly confused by the term "mode", and how the stuff they are learning about modes can be put to practical use. I think some more posts along these lines would be most helpful.

As some of you know, my musical "footprint" is very wide, with many years experience in classical,jazz,pop,world music etc etc and therefore I can empathize with every viewpoint stated above. And I've had many a long argument with my old Dad, a died-in-the-wool classical muso (long-retired) about the best ways to teach music. I've always believed that music education should encompass all the different ways of thinking, whether it is the the old way (church harmony / counterpoint / score analysis etc etc) or the modern methods - chord symbols, pentatonic blues scales, improvisation, modes etc etc.

But these days (not like when I was a student), the differences between the old and new methods are becoming narrower, and indeed most Music Colleges encompass (and sometimes heartily encourage) the study of all types of music thinking / performance.

You know, its actually a very old fashioned viewpoint to think that somehow "classical" music is different from the rest of the music world.
The BBC orch I play with has covered just about every genre you can think of over the years including various ethnic musics (Indian / chinese / African), hip hop / r'n'b, rock, jazz (we did a concert with Wynton Marsalis for instance), all sorts of weird contemporary stuff, along with all the repertoire from the last 300 years.

The only real difference between your typical classical muso and others, is that some of my colleagues would find improvisation a little daunting. Only some, mind you. There are plenty who can do it extremely well. And students at Colleges these days are encouraged to include improv in their courses.
Oh and course orch musos can read fly sh*t !!

The Major