Janek and Hadrien

[dr1]

those guys killin, thats a fact,BUT to me,this is what the bass playin is about:


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTJEu7Tngaw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTJEu7Tngaw...feature=related[/url]

[4000]

I think "what bass playing is all about" really depends on the situation......

[Pete Academy]

Janek can groove like buggery when he neeeds to, as in when he does a pop gig.

A great all-rounder IMO.

[Rayman]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='885604' date='Jul 4 2010, 05:43 PM']Janek can groove like buggery when he neeeds to, as in when he does a pop gig.

A great all-rounder IMO.[/quote]

Yep, saw him with JEM a couple of years ago, and although I was slightly distracted by the lady herself, Janek was holding it all together in the band, nice and simple, just the way I like the bass to be.

[dr1]

[quote name='4000' post='885577' date='Jul 4 2010, 04:15 PM']I think "what bass playing is all about" really depends on the situation......[/quote]

offcourse, but in any situation you can play with a feel, simple and without killing.

not that I want to take anything from Janek,nor I can,nor I wish, he is complete player, he can play, but there's something about those showing-offs and overkills I just dont like to see. fair enough.

[Faithless]

I'm not trying to be offensive, but, if it's a thread about [i]nu-jazz[/i] cats and their music, maybe it isn't necessary to post James Brown videos here, is it, as it's entirely different cup of tea? It's cool about his music, but the topic isn't about him nor that style of music (classical funk, in this case, ok..)

There's a great thread, 'Funk and Groove', where J Brown stuff fits very nicely, and, here, I would just leave it to discussing jazz cats stuff.. Is that fair enough, mate?


easy
Faith

Edited July 5, 2010 by Faithless

[dr1]

[quote name='Faithless' post='886100' date='Jul 5 2010, 09:12 AM']I'm not trying to be offensive, but, if it's a thread about [i]nu-jazz[/i] cats and their music, maybe it isn't necessary to post James Brown videos here, is it, as it's entirely different cup of tea? It's cool about his music, but the topic isn't about him nor that style of music (classical funk, in this case, ok..)

There's a great thread, 'Funk and Groove', where J Brown stuff fits very nicely, and, here, I would just leave it to discussing jazz cats stuff.. Is that fair enough, mate?


easy
Faith[/quote]

youre not offensive,but your comment is pretty arrogant,dude! take it easy, its just a forum and you re not some kind of moderator,are you? what gives you right to "advice"?
take a look to the other comments, people talks here,you know and give their coments on certain themes. did I offend you or broke your computer with posting A LINK as part of my observation?

[mcgraham]

dr1, love the video, really grooveworthy, but I think faithless is being quite fair. He didn't try to give advice, just pointed out what the thread was about. I read faithless' post as just voicing a friendly concern so as to try and avoid this thread ending up as another heated debate between members who like discussing avantgarde playing/players, and members who think bass is all about the groove (which I wholeheartedly agree with!).

On the topic of this thread, I used to love listening to Janek, Hadrien and Matt G, but have gone off their music in the last 6-12 months:
Janek - I think JG is the most skilled 'bass player' of the three, as he lays down pretty immense grooves and is ubermelodic when soloing, whilst never losing the groove. His band also 'serve the song' rather than being utterly self indulgent - they are all very restrained despite their abilities. However, I find his arrangements a bit bland... in particular, I find the horn arrangements and the way they are played just seem to lack any real oomph.

Hadrien - I think HF pitches MG at the post as the strongest technician of the three, and very 'out there' with his note choices (which I like and admire). I find his technique and theoretical prowess inspiring. However, I find his pieces and arrangements incohesive, as if every musician is more focused on his/her own instrument and not the overall sound of the group.

Matt - I think MG is the real all rounder of the three, with amazing technical ability, theoretical knowledge, and musical-mindedness. I prefer his arrangements over the other two, but find he is a bit too busy a bit too often, and provides little 'bass' fundamental to his pieces, which suffer as a result. Whilst his music is compositionally stronger (IMO) than the other two, I find the production and final recorded mix is relatively weak (especially compared to Janek's). Also, MG's newer stuff just doesn't quite do it for me stylistically anymore.

[Rich]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='886145' date='Jul 5 2010, 11:05 AM']dr1, love the video, really grooveworthy, but I think faithless is being quite fair. He didn't try to give advice, just pointed out what the thread was about. I read faithless' post as just voicing a friendly concern so as to try and avoid this thread ending up as another heated debate between members who like discussing avantgarde playing/players, and members who think bass is all about the groove (which I wholeheartedly agree with!).[/quote]
I agree entirely. There was no need to jump down Faithless' throat, his comment was perfectly reasonable.

mcgraham is right, the last thing we need is [i]yet another[/i] "it's just fretw*nking / no it's not / yes it is" thread, we have dozens of them already. Some of us like contemporary jazz, nu-jazz, fusion and so on, and it'd be nice to be able to discuss it occasionally without constantly being told that we like sh*t music. Is this really too much to ask?

[dr1]

i should leave no comment - but what can i do? learned to defence myself when injustice strikes haha!
wont go into arguing over the net - pretty pointless. i just left my comment on the topic. is that wrong?
i know few others left pretty aggressive opinions and noone advices them what to do and what to say.

then - if the thread starter didnt left the message within the title like "please dont give any comment if it's not wow,that's terrific!" then why shouldnt i give my opinion and/or suggestion? i think,being the member of the forum "i may reply on the topic" "leave the comment" and so on.
faithless wasnt that "friendly" sounding to me as you may suggest - he was kinda "sir please would you left the our room quitly,please?" attitude.

best regards !!!

[mcgraham]

[quote]wont go into arguing over the net - pretty pointless.[/quote]

+1. Let's get back to discussing these guys.

[waynepunkdude]

Yeah my bad I'm out.

At least we got a bit of Father Ted though, eh?

[Rayman]

[quote name='Rich' post='886223' date='Jul 5 2010, 12:41 PM']the last thing we need is [i]yet another[/i] "it's just fretw*nking / no it's not / yes it is" thread[/quote]

Ditto. Just take the music for what it is, and as a jazz fan (and rock, and dub and...whatever) I really like that kind of stuff. Some of it I don't get of course, but that's the same with any genre I guess.

I went through a big time solo bass type thing about 12 months ago, Marcus, Janek, Victor etc etc, and while I still like that stuff, I find I much prefer now to hear the bass as part of a band groove rather than what I'd call showing off widdley diddley stuff, but there's a place for us all, whatever we're into.

For me [i]personally[/i] Adam Nitti is still the man.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I went through a big time solo bass type thing about 12 months ago, Marcus, Janek, Victor etc etc, and while I still like that stuff, I find I much prefer now to hear the bass as part of a band groove rather than what I'd call showing off widdley diddley stuff, but there's a place for us all, whatever we're into.[/quote]

I guess that's an inherent difficulty with trying to use bass as a solo instrument. Ultimately, bass is more than just an instrument - it's a [i]function[/i]. More than that, it's a function that is so integral to the overall feel, groove and pulse of a piece/arrangement that as soon as a player starts to try and do something else (e.g. solo, play chordally/harmonically, play something with a different non-complementary rhythm), that function can very quickly start to suffer and (ergo) the piece suffers. Bass soloing AND maintaining a strong groove can be done but is difficult. I think Janek is a good example of someone with great restraint who concentrates on the groove of his pieces/playing, and maintains that groove even whilst soloing, hence why his pieces are so listenable by both jazz fans and non-jazz fans alike as he doesn't try too hard to be at the forefront all the time. Nevertheless, I personally feel that the overall groove and energy of a lot of his pieces takes a nosedive once he starts to solo - not because his solos are bad! but because the 'bass chair' is empty (figuratively speaking).

All IMO of course

[purpleblob]

I'm one of those guys who thinks there's no limitation to what an instrument should do, whether it's a bass playing chords, soloing or whatever, what does matter to me is does it sound good to my ears and is it therefore enjoyable to listen to.

I'm impressed with the technique of both Janek and Hadrien (how can you not be ). Although I tend to feel Janek brings more of a "groove" to a tune, than Hadrien - and this is not a critism, just the way I hear their playing. I also tend to prefer the music of Janek (if we're comparing just the two of them).

If I could play like either of them, I'd be a happy, happy man.

[mcgraham]

I agree! I think the question of 'does it sound good?' more or less sums it up. However, what sounds good and what sounds/looks cool may be quite different, and what sounds good in isolation/one context may sound poor in another. Also, what about 'what sounds better?'

[Rayman]

If someone blows you away live with various tricks and stuff, but doesn't do it for you on the car stereo in the cold light of day then maybe the tricks and chops don't amount to much. It's [i]all[/i] about how it [i]sounds[/i] to me.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Rayman

[4000]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='886450' date='Jul 5 2010, 04:54 PM']I'm one of those guys who thinks there's no limitation to what an instrument should do, whether it's a bass playing chords, soloing or whatever, what does matter to me is does it sound good to my ears and is it therefore enjoyable to listen to.[/quote]

+1

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='886431' date='Jul 5 2010, 04:31 PM']I guess that's an inherent difficulty with trying to use bass as a solo instrument. Ultimately, bass is more than just an instrument - it's a [i]function[/i]. More than that, it's a function that is so integral to the overall feel, groove and pulse of a piece/arrangement that as soon as a player starts to try and do something else (e.g. solo, play chordally/harmonically, play something with a different non-complementary rhythm), that function can very quickly start to suffer and (ergo) the piece suffers. Bass soloing AND maintaining a strong groove can be done but is difficult. I think Janek is a good example of someone with great restraint who concentrates on the groove of his pieces/playing, and maintains that groove even whilst soloing, hence why his pieces are so listenable by both jazz fans and non-jazz fans alike as he doesn't try too hard to be at the forefront all the time. Nevertheless, I personally feel that the overall groove and energy of a lot of his pieces takes a nosedive once he starts to solo - not because his solos are bad! but because the 'bass chair' is empty (figuratively speaking).

All IMO of course [/quote]

i would disagree with that. the bass 'part' has a function, but the instrument itself is like any other, and can solo like any other IMO. having said that, i think the ensemble arrangement when the bass is soloing is more difficult to get right, and one of the bands that really gets that right would be Hiromi/Hiromis Sonicbloom. on that note i would say that Tony Grey is a worthy addition to this thread, technically brilliant and a very musical bassist got his solo album a week or so ago and its excellent

[mcgraham]

[quote]i would disagree with that. the bass 'part' has a function, but the instrument itself is like any other, and can solo like any other IMO. having said that, i think the ensemble arrangement when the bass is soloing is more difficult to get right, and one of the bands that really gets that right would be Hiromi/Hiromis Sonicbloom.[/quote]
I certainly share the viewpoint that bass is an instrument like any other, but I would argue that each instrument has different merits that ultimately translate into things the instrument naturally does well and things the instrument doesn't naturally do well. I believe that the merits of the bass guitar give it huge power and responsibility over the groove in a band, to the point that no other instrument can replicate what the bass does in a standard band line-up (without specifically arranging a band lineup to have more than one 'bass instrument', and that introduces other difficulties). Drums and bass underpin the whole band. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of not imposing limitations on any instrument, but I am simply trying to recognise the enormous role that the bass (and drums) play in a band, and why this has the flipside effect of making it harder to solo well on bass when in a band context without detracting from the piece as a whole.

Regarding the Hiromi trio, Hiromi can hold down the bass function whilst Tony is soloing, but someone else has to step into that role. In most bands, that doesn't happen or isn't even possible. Does that make sense?

[quote]on that note i would say that Tony Grey is a worthy addition to this thread, technically brilliant and a very musical bassist got his solo album a week or so ago and its excellent[/quote]
+1

[Doddy]

I don't think it's anything to do with the instrument-it's about the person. If someone like Hadrien Feraud was a sax player,he would probably be just as busy in his approach. These guys are basically at a level where they are expressing themselves via music,it just so happens that the bass is their instrument of choice. Janek would probably write the same tunes if he played something else.

[mcgraham]

I think you may be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am not disputing that one can express themselves on any instrument, (given practice, talent, etc). Janek, Hadrien, Matt all expertly express themselves on their chosen instrument. I totally support and subscribe to the bass's validity as a full and complete instrument in this regard. What I [i]am [/i]trying to convey, however, is that [i]because [/i]of their/our instrument of choice and the [i]way [/i] in which they each choose to express themselves, they can very easily neglect the naturally strong function of their instrument in a group context. As such, I feel that their pieces sometimes suffer as a result.

For example, Hadrien's frequent/constant excursions into the upper register with very unusual out there note choices and very little phrase/motif/bassline repetition is, to me, quite disruptive to a lot of his pieces and his performances with other people. Matt G often plays the melody of the heads in the guitar register on the higher strings without anyone else filling the low end. While the melody done on bass sounds good (I think!), I find the piece as a whole itself sounds fairly hollow in the lower register, as if there were no bass player. Janek, on the other hand, tends to keep the bass's sonic territory well filled and in the pocket even when 'expressing' himself. All IMO of course.

Does that make sense?

[Bilbo]

I have come to believe that the issue of 'solo' bass and the tensions that exist between the role of the bass as a foundation instrument and as a solo voice are best viewed from an aesthetic perspective.

The choices a composer or arranger makes in preparing a composition for performance are many and complex. Which instrument takes the main theme/melody, what instruments are used in the ensemble, what harmony instrument is used, what voicings, do you harmonised with this horn or that one, is the guitar acoustic or electric, is there a drummer or percussionist, neither or both. There are thousands of choices that take place in deciding how best to present the work in question.

In light of this, I have found that many of the bass-led ensembles lack any sense of responsibility where these choices are concerned. The bass player features him/herself as the main melodic voice because s/he can, not because the piece calls for that sound/texture. The choices are arguably egocentric and are about the 'showcasing' of the persons skills rather than in presenting the music being performed. The choices made by improvising players whilst performing can be equally irresponsible (Feraud appears to be one of the culprits). I find that the 'best' bass players are the ones who do what is right for the composition not the ones who rip the place apart with their chops. The more interesting players, to me, are the ones who do great things in the context of a performance. Listen to Jimmy Johnson, Anthony Jackson, Alphonso Johnson, Paul Chambers on the great Miles Davis/Gil Evans collaborations etc. The players are great [i]in the context of the performances [/i]and not as featured instrumentalists. IME, very few bass solos succeed in the overall arc of a composition/performance. Its seldom the chops leave a lasting impression but the melodies, harmonies and compositional flow. Lots of bass orientated recordings feature the instrument at a cost to the works being performed and lose their appeal quite quickly.

IME, no musician ever did his best work at a bass clinic/music fair.

[mcgraham]

Thanks Bilbo, that was very much what I was driving at.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='886431' date='Jul 5 2010, 04:31 PM']I guess that's an inherent difficulty with trying to use bass as a solo instrument. Ultimately, bass is more than just an instrument - it's a [i]function[/i]. More than that, it's a function that is so integral to the overall feel, groove and pulse of a piece/arrangement that as soon as a player starts to try and do something else (e.g. solo, play chordally/harmonically, play something with a different non-complementary rhythm), that function can very quickly start to suffer and (ergo) the piece suffers. Bass soloing AND maintaining a strong groove can be done but is difficult. I think Janek is a good example of someone with great restraint who concentrates on the groove of his pieces/playing, and maintains that groove even whilst soloing, hence why his pieces are so listenable by both jazz fans and non-jazz fans alike as he doesn't try too hard to be at the forefront all the time. Nevertheless, I personally feel that the overall groove and energy of a lot of his pieces takes a nosedive once he starts to solo - not because his solos are bad! but because the 'bass chair' is empty (figuratively speaking).

All IMO of course [/quote]

+1

I can remember seeing Janek playing for the first time (at one of the Bass days) and while I was impressed with his technical ability when he came to the end of one of his pieces and asked for questions I was sorely tempted to enquire who played bass in his band...