Cheap MM Sub 5

[grosa]

quick question not to do with nout but hull/york is up north eastish innit?

Edited October 31, 2007 by grosa

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='grosa' post='81586' date='Oct 31 2007, 03:46 AM']quick question not to do with nout but hull/york is up north eastish innit?[/quote]

Not if you live in the NE it isn't! Tyne & Wear and Northumberland is the NE but others may place the boundary elsewhere.

re. the matter of ZPQ's involvement... in the grand scheme of life the universe and everything it doesn't matter at all but it would be interesting to know exactly how he came to be chipping in and yet 'appears' to be directly involved. You are right of course he hasn't stolen anyone's money or broken into a house and nicked the bass BUT is he the original seller in which case he's the kind of eBayer that we all love to hate. Conversely did he deliberately gazump a fellow BCer using info gained from this forum? There is always a buyer and sellers view point and I'd certainly be receptive to hearing the whole story.

[Musky]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='81590' date='Oct 31 2007, 07:25 AM']Not if you live in the NE it isn't! Tyne & Wear and Northumberland is the NE but others may place the boundary elsewhere.

re. the matter of ZPQ's involvement... in the grand scheme of life the universe and everything it doesn't matter at all but it would be interesting to know exactly how he came to be chipping in and yet 'appears' to be directly involved. You are right of course he hasn't stolen anyone's money or broken into a house and nicked the bass BUT is he the original seller in which case he's the kind of eBayer that we all love to hate. Conversely did he deliberately gazump a fellow BCer using info gained from this forum? There is always a buyer and sellers view point and I'd certainly be receptive to hearing the whole story.[/quote]

As I understand it, the original seller and ZPQ live in different necks of the wood - somewhere near Manchester (if I remember correctly) and York/Hull. I also don't think it was this thread that drew attention - BB first posted 4 days after the end of the sale. So it might appear that ZPQ contacted the original seller after the end of the auction with a higher offer, as BB suspected had happened.

Although making higher offers after the end of an auction is perhaps slightly unethical, it's quite commonplace, and not just on ebay. To my mind the problem lies with the seller, who not only renegued on a deal but then started spouting unbelievable claptrap about the whole thing.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musky' post='81630' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:05 AM']As I understand it, the original seller and ZPQ live in different necks of the wood - somewhere near Manchester (if I remember correctly) and York/Hull. I also don't think it was this thread that drew attention - BB first posted 4 days after the end of the sale. So it might appear that ZPQ contacted the original seller after the end of the auction with a higher offer, as BB suspected had happened.

Although making higher offers after the end of an auction is perhaps slightly unethical, it's quite commonplace, and not just on ebay. To my mind the problem lies with the seller, who not only renegued on a deal but then started spouting unbelievable claptrap about the whole thing.[/quote]

Accepted and quite probably likely the truth behind the whole fiasco.

You are right, contacting a seller after the end of a sale is common place (you'd be amazed how many eBayers have had a shill bidder bumping the bidding and they still don't end up enticing a 'proper' bidder) and off eBay sales can be beneficial for both parties... though obviously not if the eBayer was meant to be selling to a genuine bidder like BB!

I would think that ZPQ is feeling a bit deflated that he didn't just own up straight away as soon as BB posted about it, after all he wasn't to know he was gazumping a fellow BCer. Hindsight is a great thing but BB would probably have at least put the whole issue to rest (after he'd reported the seller to eBay) and TBH ZPQ would be entitled to keep the bass and have a 'fairly' clear conscience.

Maybe this is a salutory lesson for us all.

[Hamster]

[quote name='Musky' post='81630' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:05 AM']Although making higher offers after the end of an auction is perhaps slightly unethical[/quote]

You are being far too polite. [u]The item was sold.[/u] The seller and another then arranged or conspired behind the back of the rightful owner to deprive the rightful owner of [i][u]their[/u][/i] property.

It's dishonest, disgraceful and illegal - NOT slightly unethical.

The person in current possession of the bass should at the very least give the bass to its rightful owner at the original sold price and offer apologies.

Hamster

[Musky]

[quote name='Hamster' post='81685' date='Oct 31 2007, 12:36 PM']You are being far too polite. [u]The item was sold.[/u] The seller and another then arranged or conspired behind the back of the rightful owner to deprive the rightful owner of [i][u]their[/u][/i] property.

It's dishonest, disgraceful and illegal - NOT slightly unethical.

The person in current possession of the bass should at the very least give the bass to its rightful owner at the original sold price and offer apologies.

Hamster[/quote]

I actually agree with warwickhunt's last post about this.

Any dishonesty in the transaction was on the part of the seller - he entered into a contract to sell, backed out and lied about the whole thing. That was [i]unlawful[/i] but not illegal AFAIK, and the sale isn't completed until cash has exchanged hands. Though of course BB could probably persue the original seller via a claim for breach of contract if he wished.

I suspect we're all going to have different views on exactly how bad the buyer's actions were, but I wouldn't go as far as calling them disgraceful. That's just my opinion on the matter, though I can totally understand others taking a harder line.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Musky' post='81630' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:05 AM']To my mind the problem lies with the seller, who not only renegued on a deal but then started spouting unbelievable claptrap about the whole thing.[/quote]

Agreed.
Chaps, I've glanced through the above thread and feel that one should not really discuss a specific BC member in such a context.
I bid on a bass on ebay about two years ago. I didn't win but the seller emailed me and said that the original winer had pulled out and would I still want to buy it. I said yes. He then said that he'd had an another offer above the original winning price and could I exceed that. I thought about it and decided to buy the bass at the higher price. I am now 110% sure that when he realised that the winning bid was not as high as he'd have liked it to be, the seller touted his bass round to all the previous bidders. I also have no doubt that he likely told the winning bidder that the bass was broken or similar. Anyway, my point is that at the time I was new to ebay and the possibility that I was putting another bass player out (i.e., the original winner) didn't register to me. Now, two years and a couple of hundred ebay transactions later, it would seem the obvious explanation. However, I would have been quite upset to have been described as some sort of reprobate by the then Bassworld members for doing what I did.
Chris

[BassBunny]

I must admit I didn't expect this topic to still be running.
Just to add a couple of points. I have long since got over the e-Bay situation and it was only when a "similar " Sub appeared on BC some 4 days after the auction I got a bit curious. 2 Teal Blue Sub5's for sale in a 4 day period does seem strange.
I sent John, (ZPQ), a PM to that effect and jokingly asked if it was the one off e-Bay. I did not receive a reply. That in itself is not unusual as the BassChat PM system can be notorious.
I sent a further PM today pointing this thread out and mentioned to John that he [u]may[/u] wish to add his side of the story. There is further scenario that could account for the situation over this particular Bass but I will wait for John's response before spilling the beans.
Ultimately we all want the same thing. A forum with members who are honest and courteous to each other and wouldn't do what [u]MIGHT[/u] have happened here.

[andy67]

BassBunny wrote:

"Ultimately we all want the same thing. A forum with members who are honest and courteous to each other and wouldn't do what MIGHT have happened here."

absolutely 100% agree - I take the integrity of my ebay account very seriously....users take the risk when listing at auction instead of buy it now and must, I repeat, must, take the hit if it all goes wrong for them...

I lost nearly one hundred pounds from new on my first ebay sale, sick though I was; the buyer was extremely happy and left very positive feedback! my fault and have since learned from this and am still 100%..no private or hiding bidder identities on my sales! make me mad and I'm beginning to rant....

As well as this forum I am amember of an Edinburgh Derby forum (Hibs and Hearts) we are a tight board who socialise regularly and are completely 100% with each other and that in its self, for me is what being part of a community wide forum means; respect, honesty and downright straight up with other members.....

Edited October 31, 2007 by andy67

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='andy67' post='81930' date='Oct 31 2007, 08:19 PM']BassBunny wrote:

"Ultimately we all want the same thing. A forum with members who are honest and courteous to each other and wouldn't do what MIGHT have happened here."

absolutely 100% agree - I take the integrity of my ebay account very seriously....users take the risk when listing at auction instead of buy it now and must, I repeat, must, take the hit if it all goes wrong for them...

I lost nearly one hundred pounds from new on my first ebay sale, sick though I was; the buyer was extremely happy and left very positive feedback! my fault and have since learned from this and am still 100%..[b]no private or hiding bidder identities on my sales! make me mad and I'm beginning to rant....[/b]

As well as this forum I am amember of an Edinburgh Derby forum (Hibs and Hearts) we are a tight board who socialise regularly and are completely 100% with each other and that in its self, for me is what being part of a community wide forum means; respect, honesty and downright straight up with other members.....[/quote]

From a generic ebay point of view. As a former eBayer with a total of 3000 sales and purchases I can assure you there is a genuine reason for some private sales. On several occasions I've had items listed and the bidding has been going very nicely until a bidder suddenly pulls out! I've had this happen on several occasions and found out that a fellow eBayer had contacted them through the contact member function and offered them an identical item for less money. Now that really stinks and is one of the reasons that I started listing privately. It's still very easy to spot a seller who is getting friends and family to bump his/her items. So don't knock all private/hidden bidder sales!

[andy67]

point taken warwick!

its just a little harder to spot the cheats that way!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='andy67' post='81956' date='Oct 31 2007, 09:31 PM']point taken warwick!

its just a little harder to spot the cheats that way![/quote]

Point taken in return Andy but it's not hard to spot 'possible' cheats.

I'll pluck an example out at random

[url="http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170162813144&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:BIDN"]http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V...=STRK:MEWA:BIDN[/url]

Here's a private listing/hidden ID sale that ended today. Please note that bidder #9 places a bid at just below certain thresholds, now ask yourself this! If you 'genuinely' wanted to buy that bass (which I would have had I an account) then would you place a bid £1 or £10 below a given threshold? Be honest if you did want it you'd at least bid a straight £800 and the wise ebayer would stick a £ or two onto that. Decidedly odd to say the least that bidder #9 actually bid a measly couple of quid (euro) less than amounts that you or I would identify as crucial amounts... or am I just a little jaded? Who knows

[andy67]

not jaded - just as paranoid as I am!


methinks ebay will come crashing down sooner rather than later - already feel there has been a massive change in its approach and the class of trader it is now attracting??

[tauzero]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='81999' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:13 PM']Here's a private listing/hidden ID sale that ended today. Please note that bidder #9 places a bid at just below certain thresholds, now ask yourself this! If you 'genuinely' wanted to buy that bass (which I would have had I an account) then would you place a bid £1 or £10 below a given threshold? Be honest if you did want it you'd at least bid a straight £800 and the wise ebayer would stick a £ or two onto that. Decidedly odd to say the least that bidder #9 actually bid a measly couple of quid (euro) less than amounts that you or I would identify as crucial amounts... or am I just a little jaded? Who knows[/quote]

A friend of mine was on the wrong end of an absolutely blatant bit of shill bidding. He'd bid on a telly, was the only bidder and looked like he would get it for a couple of quid. Then another bidder came along, bid quite high so my friend's maximum was exposed, retracted the bid, then bid again, just lower than friend's bid, hence pushing his bid to the maximum.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='tauzero' post='82187' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:11 PM']A friend of mine was on the wrong end of an absolutely blatant bit of shill bidding. He'd bid on a telly, was the only bidder and looked like he would get it for a couple of quid. Then another bidder came along, bid quite high so my friend's maximum was exposed, retracted the bid, then bid again, just lower than friend's bid, hence pushing his bid to the maximum.[/quote]

Now that is nasty and a down right deliberate ploy to scr*w bidders. I'd be retracting my bid if I noticed that had happened!

BTW tauzero what is that you are riding on a track day?

Edited November 1, 2007 by warwickhunt

[andy67]

Has there been any explanation from ZPQ re this?

I am sh*t at geography and please correct me if I'm way off the plot here...but zpqproductions appears to be in hull and the original seller says its was in preston lancashire thus, by my dodgy geographical search (multimap) would make these places neighbours?

Edited November 3, 2007 by andy67

[Musky]

[quote name='andy67' post='83075' date='Nov 3 2007, 10:15 AM']Has there been any explanation from ZPQ re this?

I am sh*t at geography and please correct me if I'm way off the plot here...but zpqproductions appears to be in hull and the original seller says its was in preston lancashire thus, by my dodgy geographical search (multimap) would make these places neighbours?[/quote]

They're a good 100 miles apart. Not really neighbours.

[andy67]

thanks for that! no link there then....?

[pete.young]

Well guess what? It's back on the bay!

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MusicMan-Sub-5-string-bass-USA-made-by-Ernie-Ball_W0QQitemZ330181727828QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4713QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MusicMan-Sub-5-strin...1QQcmdZViewItem[/url]

[BassBunny]

[quote name='andy67' post='83075' date='Nov 3 2007, 10:15 AM']Has there been any explanation from ZPQ re this?

I am sh*t at geography and please correct me if I'm way off the plot here...but zpqproductions appears to be in hull and the original seller says its was in preston lancashire thus, by my dodgy geographical search (multimap) would make these places neighbours?[/quote]
Time to put this one to bed I think. I have heard from John, (ZPQ), so here is the explanation.....

Firstly it IS the same bass and here is what happened. Are you sitting comfortably???

When ZPQ spotted the Bass on t'Bay there had been some bids on it. He contacted the seller and asked if there had been a BIN. (sometimes BINS disappear when there is a bid). Seller says NO, ZPQ offers £400. Seller doesn't reply and the auction finishes on £262.89, my winning bid. Seller then contacts ZPQ and offers to sell at the £400 he originally offered and assumed that I had backed out of the deal. ZPQ said he was held up in a meeting, so did not see the auction finish and does the deal. At that time he had no idea it was someone from here and paid for it and received it before discovering that. As no one had lost any money he just put it down to one of those eBay experiences and is his words;

[i]"However as my reputation is now questionable the only honorable thing to do is withdraw from BC and apologize for the incident.
Hope that helps clear things up, doesn't make it right but I can't do much more."[/i]

I suggested that John may want to put his side of the story on this thread and he has obviously decided not too.

There is still something that I am still puzzled about. As the winning bid was £262.89, why pay nearly £150 over that to secure the Bass? I would assume the seller would have been happy with anything over the auction price as he had listed without reserve and the plan fell flat. The Bass was then subsequently advertised on BC for £450 within 5 Days of the auction end. Probably only just enough time to receive it, let alone decide you didn't like it. I am being toooooo cynical?

The crazy thing is that I only took a punt on it as it was a really good price and I wanted to see if it would suit me. The chances are it may not, so no damage done. On the other hand, I don't now know.

Anyway thanks again all for all the support and suggestions.

[andy67]

oh well - that is it then.......??

leaving BC is a bit of a cop out as he should really post and explanation because it kinda makes it look, maybe half true half something else.............

but his loss...

[warwickhunt]

I do think that ZPQ could have come out of this with a bit of egg on his face but it seems a bit knee jerk to simply throw his hands up and walk away.

He's not personally robbed one of us or whacked an old dear with a baseball bat!

As ZPQ indicated, he was approached by the eBay seller and had no way of knowing that the ebay buyer (BB) hadn't simply pulled out. Buying the bass in this way would seem perfectly normal/acceptable. Once he realised it was a fellow BCer that had been duped in the sale, he was a bit daft to have posted on this thread suggesting that BB drop the matter but that was probably because he'd realised what had happened and didn't want to be found out at a later date and then be made to look a complete tw*t.

[kevbass]

I do agree its prob time to put this post to rest, but Im not entirely sure If I buy that explanation tbh, firstly he posts on the forum telling you to leave it and move on, then he tries to sell it on here and again on ebay in just a matter of days after having supposedly bought it from the seller, It all sounds dodgy to me and the fact he wont explain himself on the public forum just adds to the dodgyness

[andy67]

well to take a positive out of this, particularly from my obsevations; this forum has a lot of decent, honest guys and gals attached to it as this thread shows how seriously we take our reputations when selling, be it here or ebay and of course, the integrity of the user base!

R.I.P - sub bass.................................

Edited November 3, 2007 by andy67

[originalfunster]

Just to add my bit.......

I do not think this was a shill bid...

Bidder 9 was actually the leading bidder untill 30 minutes of the auction ending. and the guy who won the item bid again with 30 minutes to go, just my opinion on this one......

Oh and insult to injury......... it sold on the bay tonight for £409.89...............

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MusicMan-Sub-5-string-bass-USA-made-by-Ernie-Ball_W0QQitemZ330181727828"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MusicMan-Sub-5-strin...emZ330181727828[/url]


[quote name='warwickhunt' post='81999' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:13 PM']Point taken in return Andy but it's not hard to spot 'possible' cheats.

I'll pluck an example out at random

[url="http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170162813144&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:BIDN"][url="http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V...=STRK:MEWA:BIDN"]http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V...=STRK:MEWA:BIDN[/url][/url]

Here's a private listing/hidden ID sale that ended today. Please note that bidder #9 places a bid at just below certain thresholds, now ask yourself this! If you 'genuinely' wanted to buy that bass (which I would have had I an account) then would you place a bid £1 or £10 below a given threshold? Be honest if you did want it you'd at least bid a straight £800 and the wise ebayer would stick a £ or two onto that. Decidedly odd to say the least that bidder #9 actually bid a measly couple of quid (euro) less than amounts that you or I would identify as crucial amounts... or am I just a little jaded? Who knows[/quote]

Edited November 6, 2007 by originalfunster