No Pain, No Gain?

[BassBus]

That's really useful, Jake. At least your comments have made me go and check my left hand/arm positioning. I have had problems with my left shoulder before I dropped the elbow down. Like you say what ever suits you. Then again I won't be out playing as much as you.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BassBus' post='656237' date='Nov 16 2009, 06:56 PM']That's really useful, Jake. At least your comments have made me go and check my left hand/arm positioning. I have had problems with my left shoulder before I dropped the elbow down. Like you say what ever suits you. Then again I won't be out playing as much as you. [/quote]
Absolutely, we all have different physiology, of utmost importance is making sure that you can be relaxed and minimise any pressure by keeping nice straight lines. Getting your hands and arms into those positions can feel alien but should not hurt in any way other than normal exercise pain (muscle use heat) once you have trained your muscles into the movements they will remember for you... The human body is very good at that. Once you make the alien feeling things part of your day then an easy flow of ability will follow.

[Duckyincarnate]

I have taken up the double bass about 7 months ago, although I was a bit nervous about it having had problems with carpal tunnel syndrome in the past while playing guitar.

I study with a good teacher and listen to my body - I know what symptoms to look for when I go too far. But so far so good. I have also found this book very helpful, because it provides a large number of very useful stretch exercises which I do before and after playing as well as at work when I get a chance:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive-Injuries/dp/1572240393/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258543370&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conquering-Carpal-...3370&sr=8-1[/url]

[Bilbo]

I am making progress in my efforts to joined y'all in the doghouse and have noticed how easy it is for one to allow various parts of one's body to tense up as you play. I am a fan of Alexander Technique and am learning how to relax those parts of my hands and arms that I am not using at any given moment to allow them to rest. Interestingly, I also have to watch the tension in my back and legs - this is not borne of effort but simply a consequence of 'trying too hard'. By 'listening' to my body, as duckyincarnate suggests, I am finding I can stave off the worst physical problems.

Three months in an no blisters, CTS or tendonitis!! The main issue is fatigue in my left upper arm and a general lack of stamina (Cherokke is off the set list for now ) but the progress is evident and I am happy. Just wish I could give it more time but that's been a problem with music in general for that last 20 years!!

Its all good.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='739043' date='Feb 8 2010, 04:01 PM']I am a fan of Alexander Technique[/quote]

My drummer does that. Shameful. Whatever happened to good, honest mucky mags off the top shelf?

[macmellus]

I've been playing since October and can't seem to stop using my ring finger, partly because i can't see a problem and I don't seem to be getting any problems. I'm not playing particularly fast at the moment. Do people think I'll develop problems later on if I carry on this way?

[endorka]

I've tried several different approaches to playing the double bass, and the one that I settled on that I personally found provided the easiest and least tense playing was sitting on a pretty low stool, playing the bass in an (almost) cello style. I learned this from my tutor, although ultimately I modified the position a bit to suit myself; he plays the double bass almost exactly like a cello, i.e. the bass is barely at an angle to his torso at all, whereas I found I had to rotate the instrument a little, in the manner of a traditional tall stool orchestral player, to be able to play the G string at the tip of the bow without having to over reach. My avatar shows this pretty well.

The great advantage of this approach is that the bass is totally supported by the left knee, right leg, and torso - neither hand is involved in holding it in position at all, the instrument is rock sold, and your hands can be as relaxed as possible. I use a boot lace from a leg of my stool to go round the endpin, so the instrument is in exactly the same position every time I play it.

The disadvantage, as far as I can ascertain, is that it only seems to work for relatively tall people. The most critical factor is probably arm length.

...and the fact that you'll be carrying about a stool for the rest of your life :-)

Jennifer

[velvetkevorkian]

IME Jennifer's approach is excellent, although you can also adapt it by having both feet up on a rung of the stool, which gives you a bit more flexibility with heights etc. Either is far superior to the traditional one leg up on the stool position IMO, which I found gave me intense back pains after any length of time playing.

Edited February 9, 2010 by velvetkevorkian

[BassBus]

[quote name='macmellus' post='739626' date='Feb 9 2010, 02:12 AM']I've been playing since October and can't seem to stop using my ring finger, partly because i can't see a problem and I don't seem to be getting any problems. I'm not playing particularly fast at the moment. Do people think I'll develop problems later on if I carry on this way?[/quote]
As was said earlier, if it works for you then stick with it. As far as I can see (and I bow to other's greater experience) not using the ring finger is more about reducing the stretch at the top of the neck. That's certainly why I play that way. You might have bigger hands that can cope with the extra stretch. Work with what feels right for you and maybe consider trying another approach if you develop problems.

Edited February 9, 2010 by BassBus

[endorka]

Oh aye,

And I forgot to mention that it's great to hear that you're playing the double bass again Bilbo!

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

[quote name='endorka' post='741121' date='Feb 10 2010, 03:40 PM']Oh aye,

And I forgot to mention that it's great to hear that you're playing the double bass again Bilbo!

Jennifer[/quote]

Thanks, Jennifer. And I am simultaneously learning about how much these things COST to play First its the bass, then a set-up, then the strings, then the bow, then the pick-up, then a case and that's before we get to changing the damn car so you can get it in with an amp!! Every single aspect of the process seems to involve a compromise due to finances. Good professional basses 'start' at £3K unless you are lucky, strings for £80 + or £150, 'cheap' bows at £120 - £400, £250 for a good pick-up (which may need to be fitted by a luthier at even greater cost), cases start at another £150.... And then all the good teachers live over 100 miles away!!

I need a long lost rich aunt to appear to fund all this!!!

Still, I do love it

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='741137' date='Feb 10 2010, 03:59 PM']Thanks, Jennifer. And I am simultaneously learning about how much these things COST to play First its the bass, then a set-up, then the strings, then the bow, then the pick-up, then a case and that's before we get to changing the damn car so you can get it in with an amp!! Every single aspect of the process seems to involve a compromise due to finances. Good professional basses 'start' at £3K unless you are lucky, strings for £80 + or £150, 'cheap' bows at £120 - £400, £250 for a good pick-up (which may need to be fitted by a luthier at even greater cost), cases start at another £150.... And then all the good teachers live over 100 miles away!!

I need a long lost rich aunt to appear to fund all this!!!

Still, I do love it [/quote]

on the positive side, once you're set up they are pretty low maintenance, I have only ever bought 3 sets of strings in my entire playing life. Thats one set of thomastiks, one set of gut strings (off ebay quite cheap) and the ones I'm using now Innovation silver slap.
my last pick up was £80 second hand.

Edited February 10, 2010 by jakesbass

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='741147' date='Feb 10 2010, 04:14 PM']...I have only ever bought 3 sets of strings in my entire playing life.[/quote]

That's all I have ever bought for the Wal. I am on my third set in 24 years I have a fourth that is in my bass case waiting for a change but I hate new strings so never quite get around to it!!

Your point is taken, though. You so rarely hear of UB GAS the way you do with the electric fraternity!!

[Greydad]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='741162' date='Feb 10 2010, 04:25 PM']You so rarely hear of UB GAS the way you do with the electric fraternity!![/quote]

I had UB GAS really bad - had a frantic 2-3 week period where I HAD TO HAVE ONE!!!!

[Mykesbass]

Just want to say thanks Jake for the community spirit - those pictures are really helpful. Will let you know how I get on with the new technique (hope it's not like it was when I was taught how to play squash properly - didn't win a single game after that)

[TPJ]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='741147' date='Feb 10 2010, 04:14 PM']on the positive side, once you're set up they are pretty low maintenance, I have only ever bought 3 sets of strings in my entire playing life. Thats one set of thomastiks, one set of gut strings (off ebay quite cheap) and the ones I'm using now Innovation silver slap.
my last pick up was £80 second hand.[/quote]

plus, once your up and running all the extra DB gigs will pay for it all

Glad it's going well for you this time bud.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='741577' date='Feb 10 2010, 10:59 PM']Just want to say thanks Jake for the community spirit - those pictures are really helpful. Will let you know how I get on with the new technique (hope it's not like it was when I was taught how to play squash properly - didn't win a single game after that) [/quote]
Thanks for the thanks....
It is a community, which is one of the nice things about it... so I'm only too glad to help. As I've said before though I am no world authority on these things so my observations should perhaps be taken in balance with the views of others.
Jake

[oldslapper]

Jake....thanks, I've just read through this thread. You're a diamond for posting pics/advice.

I'm new to gigging the DB/EUB and find it exhausting, but exhilarating. I thought, as a an e-bass player of some 30 years, that I'd be "match fit" to go out with an upright. But I was wrong.
Jazz quartet plays mix of Gypsie/20's/30's type dance stuff, which is 2 to the bar I, V stuff, but I'm knackered after.

Intonation, intervals, scales, etc not been a problem (to my cloth ears anyway), but I think my posture is a problem (6'4" height) along with "self taught" technique, so this has prompted me to go and invest in some lessons.
Anyone know of any DB tutors near Dorset?
How far away is Jake???

[Greydad]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='754665' date='Feb 23 2010, 08:13 AM']I'm new to gigging the DB/EUB and find it exhausting, but exhilarating. I thought, as a an e-bass player of some 30 years, that I'd be "match fit" to go out with an upright. But I was wrong.
Jazz quartet plays mix of Gypsie/20's/30's type dance stuff, which is 2 to the bar I, V stuff, but I'm knackered after.[/quote]

I'm similar, 34 years playing bass guitar and now doing double bass and all those effortless runs and fills suddenly become impossible

I never thought I'd be satisfied playing root-fifth stuff to bluegrass type music but it's a real achievement at the moment. I think unless you're doing super-duper jazz it forces you to simplify what you do and I don't think that's a bad thing.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Greydad' post='754676' date='Feb 23 2010, 08:34 AM']I'm similar, 34 years playing bass guitar and now doing double bass and all those effortless runs and fills suddenly become impossible

I never thought I'd be satisfied playing root-fifth stuff to bluegrass type music but it's a real achievement at the moment. I think unless you're doing super-duper jazz it forces you to simplify what you do and I don't think that's a bad thing.[/quote]

Great stuff!

I've no problem keeping things simple....suits my brains' capacity!

Noticed your location BTW. Trying to arrange a "bash" south west-ish, so if you can get over we can compare notes...(errr no pun intended there).

John

[Bilbo]

It is the sheer physicality that is a shock to the system, isn't it. But I am finding that a little attention to posture etc pays dividends. Patience is the key: 30+ years of ripping around an electric means it is inevitable that we will all want to play like Dave HOlland on day one but we can't and shouldn't. Take time to build up stamina and tone, intonation and technique. Its so easy to get a false sense of progress in a practice room.

[Greydad]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='754704' date='Feb 23 2010, 09:07 AM']Great stuff!

I've no problem keeping things simple....suits my brains' capacity!

Noticed your location BTW. Trying to arrange a "bash" south west-ish, so if you can get over we can compare notes...(errr no pun intended there).

John[/quote]

Let me know. There's a lot of guys in/around Bristol, don't know how far south west you are

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='754665' date='Feb 23 2010, 08:13 AM']Jake....thanks, I've just read through this thread. You're a diamond for posting pics/advice.

I'm new to gigging the DB/EUB and find it exhausting, but exhilarating. I thought, as a an e-bass player of some 30 years, that I'd be "match fit" to go out with an upright. But I was wrong.
Jazz quartet plays mix of Gypsie/20's/30's type dance stuff, which is 2 to the bar I, V stuff, but I'm knackered after.

Intonation, intervals, scales, etc not been a problem (to my cloth ears anyway), but I think my posture is a problem (6'4" height) along with "self taught" technique, so this has prompted me to go and invest in some lessons.
Anyone know of any DB tutors near Dorset?
How far away is Jake???[/quote]
I'm in Hampshire OS but probably as far from Dorset as I could be whilst still in Hampshire. I am in the very North east Corner in Aldershot on the Farnham side. If you ever come up this way though I'm always up for giving one off lessons.
Jake

Ps thanks for the thanks

Edited February 26, 2010 by jakesbass

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='656152' date='Nov 16 2009, 07:32 PM']one from above to see the counterpoint between left and right (right hand very slightly anchors the bass but ideally posture should allow you to make the bass stand without holding)
[attachment=36481:P1000290.JPG]

One from the front in the same position as above. (using the heavy 2 finger RH pizz in this )
[attachment=36482:P1000292.jpg][/quote]

My teacher taught me to always use 2 RH fingers for pizz when possible, but his technique is to have the fingers parallel to the strings, with the relaxed hand that classical pianists use, not a loaded spring. We also put the most meat we can manage on the string to have a thicker tone and pluck mentally from the right shoulder down, put on scrutinizing the actual pizz technique in use, I find that while the upper arm does move somewhat, the most movement is seen from elbow down. Most definitely the plucking is initiated from the arm, not the hand. This technique is inherited from Jorma Katrama, the professor emeritus at Sibelius Academy (which produces excellent classical musicians) and modified by my teacher who is a hard bop player.

Is the style in use in Britain different? I can't imagine you guys (and gals) pluck with the hand only, so it must be just something that COULD be read into the pictures, but is not what you actually do day-to-day.

Edited March 5, 2010 by nobody's prefect

[Bilbo]

Well, I did it.

My first double bass gig. Three 45 minute sets of jazz standards in a piano/sax/bass trio (the b******s made no concessions to my limted skills - I played faster and longer last night than I have since getting the bass in December!!!). Exhausting for me and my playing was not exactly radical but everyone was happy and was offered another gig on the strength of it. To be honest, I had the Wal with me but only turned to it for the last two tunes having started to get the beginnings of a blister on each hand. I have managed to avoid those developing. More importantly, no hand pain after the fact - a bit sore (like if you have been shifting bricks or something) but, after a nights sleep, no problems.

Technique was not perfect but whatever was wrong with it, I wasn't doing any harm. Lots to think about, to process and more learning points that I can count but, quiet victories, I did it.