No Pain, No Gain?

[stewartmusic]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='655825' date='Nov 16 2009, 12:29 PM']Use the pads of your fingertips rather than curling too much...[/quote]

Hey, I understand that there are many teaching methods about and when it comes to Double Bass there's probably even more! I'm currently studying with Thomas Martin at the RSAMD and this is one thing that i would slightly disagree with, you need to make sure there is a good shape to your finger, especially not flat and I would say that you need to have a good curl so that you are using the round tip of your finger rather than your pad, it allows you to add more shape and make a really strong tonal centre, and its easier to move if your intonation is out!

jakesbass, im not intending to detract from your ability as a player as I'm sure there is no question there, i just wanted to include my own bit of insight:)

Dara

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='stewartmusic' post='841369' date='May 18 2010, 08:48 PM']Hey, I understand that there are many teaching methods about and when it comes to Double Bass there's probably even more! I'm currently studying with Thomas Martin at the RSAMD and this is one thing that i would slightly disagree with, you need to make sure there is a good shape to your finger, especially not flat and I would say that you need to have a good curl so that you are using the round tip of your finger rather than your pad, it allows you to add more shape and make a really strong tonal centre, and its easier to move if your intonation is out!

jakesbass, im not intending to detract from your ability as a player as I'm sure there is no question there, i just wanted to include my own bit of insight:)

Dara[/quote]

I'm not the only voice on DB Dara so I welcome the views of others. I think that we are actually closer in view than your 'slightly disagreeing' would suggest. I agree entirely about a good shape and getting energy into the finger, I was saying not curling too much rather than not at all, so I reckon we were saying roughly the same thing but from opposite directions. if you go back and look at the pics I have posted I have a reasonable curl, tell me what you think of them...
Jake

[stewartmusic]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='841533' date='May 18 2010, 11:01 PM']I'm not the only voice on DB Dara so I welcome the views of others. I think that we are actually closer in view than your 'slightly disagreeing' would suggest. I agree entirely about a good shape and getting energy into the finger, I was saying not curling too much rather than not at all, so I reckon we were saying roughly the same thing but from opposite directions. if you go back and look at the pics I have posted I have a reasonable curl, tell me what you think of them...
Jake[/quote]

Hey, yes my apologies it does seem that we are on the same track! Your fingers are exactly they way that I would position them on the fingerboard. The only difference between our had positions is the position of the thumb, especially on the upper positions. Again, I don't say this with the intention to fault your technique, as you state yourself you are a pro player and have been for 20 years. It may also be different styles of tuition. As i say, the only thing that I would change is to bring the thumb further around the neck as if it is running round onto the fingerboard. Not if you are stopping an F or F# with your 3/4th finger but definitely when your second finger stops the G octave. (Your photos didn't show what your hand position is like in a higher position after the neck)

I applaud you for holding a career of 20 years with double bass, its a tough business and congratulations for what will hopefully continue to be a great career!

Thanks again,

Dara

[Bilbo]

Did my fourth double bass gig yesterday. Slim Hopgood's Swingin' Hamptons at Isaacs in Ipswich - a tradish jazz band that I do once or twice a year because they are friends - I don't accept trad gigs ordinarily. It was also a chance to give the double bass a workout,

Good news?

Did the whole gig on double bass and didn't have to resort to the Wal at all.
No arm, hand or shoulder pain.
No blisters at all (only minimal soreness at the tips of my r/h fore/middle fingers when submerged in hot water)
Noone laughed.

Bad news

Not a great sound through my (flat) Eden amp
Loud drummer resulted in a complete lack of finesse on my part and the complete loss of any technique worth speaking of
The realisation that, now the honeymoon period is over, I have a mountain to climb to get to the level I want to achieve. Not that I am shying away from that climb; its nothing more that a moment of pathos...

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='853709' date='Jun 1 2010, 03:59 PM'][b]Not a great sound[/b] through my (flat) Eden amp
[b]Loud drummer resulted in a complete lack of finesse on my par[/b]t and the complete loss of any technique worth speaking of
The realisation that, now the honeymoon period is over, [b]I have a mountain to climb[/b] to get to the level I want to achieve. Not that I am shying away from that climb; its nothing more that a moment of pathos...[/quote]
welcome to the world brother...
a never ending quest....
get your crampons on, the air gets thin up there.

[TPJ]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='853709' date='Jun 1 2010, 03:59 PM']Loud drummer resulted in a complete lack of finesse on my part and the complete loss of any technique worth speaking of The realisation that, now the honeymoon period is over, I have a mountain to climb to get to the level I want to achieve. Not that I am shying away from that climb; its nothing more that a moment of pathos...[/quote]

Loud anything seems to kill my technique as well. It's too easy to start playing hard to try and be heard. The result is usually the opposite in my case as my bass will choke out and volume goes. I'm trying to keep a mind set of "just play normally". If they ask me to turn up, laugh and tell them to turn down

[BobVbass]

Well, inspired by all you lot I've just bought Old Slappers EUB and I'm going to convert to acoustic Upright in my 50's Rock and Roll band.

I've now gone from "how hard can it be?!" when I got it last week to errrm "oh....pretty hard then!" already have blisters on my right hand fingers from a couple of hours practice over the weekend but I'm slowly getting to grips with the scale - as mentioned before it's very strange though going from playing lines without even thinking (gazing around the room etc) to really struggling to get anywhere - I will do it though and we've twenty gigs lined up at the mo so I can jump in whenever I feel ready - seems a long way off at the mo.

Just bought some weedwackers to see what they're like and see if they're any better for the rock and rolly slap type thing I'm trying - hopefully easier than the cheesegraters I'm using at the mo - or maybe I'm being a wimp.

Anyway the plan is to get used to the scale and get started on the EUB then after a final gig with my other band at the end of July sell all my PA equiment, stands, lights etc and get myself a decent acoustic.

So lot of pain at the minute and not much gain except for a tiny few sparks where I could just see what things might turn into.....

[TPJ]

[quote name='bob_pickard' post='854568' date='Jun 2 2010, 10:37 AM']Well, inspired by all you lot I've just bought Old Slappers EUB and I'm going to convert to acoustic Upright in my 50's Rock and Roll band.

I've now gone from "how hard can it be?!" when I got it last week to errrm "oh....pretty hard then!" already have blisters on my right hand fingers from a couple of hours practice over the weekend but I'm slowly getting to grips with the scale - as mentioned before it's very strange though going from playing lines without even thinking (gazing around the room etc) to really struggling to get anywhere - I will do it though and we've twenty gigs lined up at the mo so I can jump in whenever I feel ready - seems a long way off at the mo.

Just bought some weedwackers to see what they're like and see if they're any better for the rock and rolly slap type thing I'm trying - hopefully easier than the cheesegraters I'm using at the mo - or maybe I'm being a wimp.

Anyway the plan is to get used to the scale and get started on the EUB then after a final gig with my other band at the end of July sell all my PA equiment, stands, lights etc and get myself a decent acoustic.

So lot of pain at the minute and not much gain except for a tiny few sparks where I could just see what things might turn into.....[/quote]

Stick with it, well worth the effort.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='TPJ' post='854846' date='Jun 2 2010, 01:54 PM']Stick with it, well worth the effort. [/quote]

+1.

I'm trying to learn how to bow at the moment, I've found it's a great test of the patience of my neighbours.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='855024' date='Jun 2 2010, 04:07 PM']+1.

I'm trying to learn how to bow at the moment, I've found it's a great test of the patience of my neighbours.[/quote]

:lol::lol:

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='855024' date='Jun 2 2010, 04:07 PM']+1.

I'm trying to learn how to bow at the moment, I've found it's a great test of the patience of my neighbours.[/quote]

Are you having lessons at the moment? If not, I can always pop up to York and help you out for an hour - I'm dropping into York for some consultancy work quite a bit at the moment.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='855710' date='Jun 3 2010, 09:26 AM']Are you having lessons at the moment? If not, I can always pop up to York and help you out for an hour - I'm dropping into York for some consultancy work quite a bit at the moment.[/quote]

No, the guy I was hoping would give me some lessons seems to be too busy. And to be honest so am I at the moment. I do need lessons though and I may send you a PM next month some time though if things slow down a bit.

Cheers.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='855823' date='Jun 3 2010, 10:52 AM']No, the guy I was hoping would give me some lessons seems to be too busy. And to be honest so am I at the moment. I do need lessons though and I may send you a PM next month some time though if things slow down a bit.

Cheers. [/quote]

You're welcome anytime, mate

[Bilbo]

Did a lot of DB practice yesterday and then a gig on electric bass. Feeling a bit sore today, handswise, like when you have been shifting bricks all day!!

[Greydad]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='858985' date='Jun 6 2010, 04:02 PM']Did a lot of DB practice yesterday and then a gig on electric bass. Feeling a bit sore today, handswise, like when you have been shifting bricks all day!![/quote]

I'm playing DB at least 3 nights a week and the old hands do ache a bit sometimes but apart from the mutant right index finger (still somewhat larger than the left index finger) the bit of my anatomy that seems to take the heaviest bass playing load is my left pinkie - main pinkie knuckle joint seems to be tested quite a lot so I need to work on using the other fingers to help it out a bit (yes, Greg, just like you told me). Good news is my left hand span has increased noticeably at full stretch, bad news is when I play electric now the stretch is more than the old 4-frets worth so I keep going past and missing the top one LOL. Must re-train brain...

[TPJ]

[quote name='Greydad' post='859072' date='Jun 6 2010, 05:37 PM']... the bit of my anatomy that seems to take the heaviest bass playing load is my left pinkie[/quote]
Mine resembles a chup chup with the callus that's on the end

Bilbo, how do you find it switching between DB and electric?

[Bilbo]

I don't practice the electric bass at all at the moment but feel completely natural playing it. I don't find I am inadvertently transferring fingering spacing from the DB to the Wal. What I have noticed is that I am more focussed on my intonation on electric than I was before and I was pretty much nailing it then so that's a good thing.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Greydad' post='859072' date='Jun 6 2010, 05:37 PM']I'm playing DB at least 3 nights a week and the old hands do ache a bit sometimes but apart from the mutant right index finger (still somewhat larger than the left index finger) the bit of my anatomy that seems to take the heaviest bass playing load is my left pinkie - main pinkie knuckle joint seems to be tested quite a lot so I need to work on using the other fingers to help it out a bit (yes, Greg, just like you told me). Good news is my left hand span has increased noticeably at full stretch, bad news is when I play electric now the stretch is more than the old 4-frets worth so I keep going past and missing the top one LOL. Must re-train brain...[/quote]
Hi Greydad,
Seems like you're getting lessons so I don't want to intervene so I have this suggestion, put it by your teacher and if it fits in with his thinking then all good.
Slow all practice down to a quarter of the speed that you normally would play, make all the movements you make small but slow and take the time to see that you are making movements correctly.
The reason:
when you play things that you already know there is a tendency to play them just as you do, if this is giving rise to pain then that should be looked at. All fingers should be down with the little finger whenever it stops a note, if you do the slow thing you will make the movements that get your little finger supported part of your day, it's then and only then that it will seep into your playing in a performance situation.

It's called undoing bad habits and it takes time and patience... slowly slowly catchee monkey.

Jake

[Greydad]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='859568' date='Jun 7 2010, 09:29 AM']Hi Greydad,
Seems like you're getting lessons so I don't want to intervene so I have this suggestion, put it by your teacher and if it fits in with his thinking then all good.
Slow all practice down to a quarter of the speed that you normally would play, make all the movements you make small but slow and take the time to see that you are making movements correctly.
The reason:
when you play things that you already know there is a tendency to play them just as you do, if this is giving rise to pain then that should be looked at. All fingers should be down with the little finger whenever it stops a note, if you do the slow thing you will make the movements that get your little finger supported part of your day, it's then and only then that it will seep into your playing in a performance situation.

It's called undoing bad habits and it takes time and patience... slowly slowly catchee monkey.

Jake[/quote]

Hi Jake, yep, I realise my little pinkie needs assistance so I'm working on that and yes it's time I had another lesson!! I've worked out the little finger issue is down to trying to stretch too much (like on an electric) instead of moving my whole hand to where it needs to be so I'll try and make some time to work on that and play everything slowly as you suggest - makes a lot of sense.

My main problem is that recently I've rarely practiced as such and haven't had time to get back to Greg for another lesson, I'm just playing live all the time (every night this week) so it's all at breakneck speed LOL. Maybe I need to take time out and review where I'm at.

Great fun this double bass stuff, though! I love it

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Greydad' post='860509' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:13 PM']My main problem is that recently I've rarely practiced as such and haven't had time to get back to Greg for another lesson, I'm just playing live all the time (every night this week) so it's all at breakneck speed LOL.[/quote]

Haha you star! That is awesome.

[quote name='Greydad' post='860509' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:13 PM']Great fun this double bass stuff, though! I love it[/quote]

Same here I pretty much never pick up a BG at home any more. I still haven't gigged it though. I need to sort out my amplified sound before I gig indoors, and I need to make sure my intonation is effortless when I play outdoors because I'm singing harmony at the same time as playing reggae parts. I think next week we'll start busking, got a rehearsal tomorrow to finalise the set we'll be working from.

[Greydad]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='860543' date='Jun 7 2010, 11:34 PM']Haha you star! That is awesome.

Same here I pretty much never pick up a BG at home any more. I still haven't gigged it though. I need to sort out my amplified sound before I gig indoors, and I need to make sure my intonation is effortless when I play outdoors because I'm singing harmony at the same time as playing reggae parts. I think next week we'll start busking, got a rehearsal tomorrow to finalise the set we'll be working from.[/quote]

No, not a star and hardly brilliant, just mostly simple stuff, but there ain't many double bassists out here and people do really seem to like it. It would be nice to think one day I'll be getting gigs because I'm good rather than because I'm the only double bass player around for miles

My intonation is not always right although it's ok most of the time now as far as I go and in theory should get better the more playing I do, hence the desire to do all the gigs and stuff I can. Jakes right though I should slow down and practice more. And go see Greg for more lessons.

I'm doing a lot of acoustic-only playing in pubs and clubs, so most of the time not using any amplification - much simpler, so much less hassle. I have played my BG a bit more recently to keep my hand in and I still enjoy it but it doesn't grab me in quite the same way it used to do. Rather than trying to fit double bass into the type of music I was playing on electric bass I went off in search of a more sympathetic environment so changed musical styles so I could get playing quickly, hence the folk and bluegrass focus rather than rock etc. I've played some blues as well, that sounds quite good along with an acoustic guitarist. I've forced myself into several regular folk jam sessions which is another easy way to get playing and learn new stuff - I've found a double bass is always sympathetically received at these.

I'm impressed you can sing as well as play - never got the hang of that, but would love to be able to do it. If I try to sing when I play bass I just fall over.

[thisnameistaken]

Well I still have a gig on bass guitar playing ska/punk originals (but we don't sound how you might imagine - we're often more reggae or hip-hop than we are ska or "punk" [that word's fairly meaningless these days isn't it]) so I do still play BG and I enjoy it, I just don't bother at home.

Funnily enough the gig I'm rehearsing for on DB is what the above guitarist and drummer originally hired me for over a year ago on bass guitar - doing a lot of old '60s Jamaican pop tunes mixed with the occasional bits of British '70s crossover stuff. So I already know most of the Maytals tunes, Desmond Dekker, Alton Ellis etc. we just never gigged them because we got writing our own stuff for the electric band instead and got in brass players and so on. But now the plan is to go out and busk those old tunes and many of them need 3-piece vocals because they're all influenced by American soul vocal bands.

As for playing DB and singing - sometimes one of them is out of tune. I can do it on bass guitar and did a band in my teens where I played fretless and sang harmony comfortably enough, but doing it on DB is a struggle at the moment, maybe explained a bit by my "String advice" thread - I can't hear my pitch very well at the moment, things are a bit thumpy.

Still loving it though, wish I'd got into DB properly decades ago. And I think if I didn't sing while playing bass I'd probably over-play a lot of the time. I don't have a great voice (my pitch is good, my voice not-so-much) but at least it keeps me out of trouble.

Edited June 7, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[Bilbo]

Well, its a year on from when I got hold of a double bass and six months since I got my own. I did a function gig with a quintet at Emanuel College, Cambridge, last Saturday. Straight crotchets all night but it was so in the pocket it came out stuck to an Everton mint and some lint. The drummer and I just locked in and stayed there swinging all night at tempos from slow blues to be-bop to great shuffles and one bossa. No Scott LaFaro licks, no flash and absolutely NO solos from me but swingadoodledo...... Got through without picking up the Wal and no blisters.....felt marvellous.

For one night only, I WAS Ray Brown....doom. doom, doom, doom, doom, doom.............

[BassBus]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1058596' date='Dec 14 2010, 02:56 PM']....doom. doom, doom, doom, doom, doom.............[/quote]
I recognise that tune...

[Bilbo]

Am happy with my general progress in terms of time and intonation but am thinking that the action on my bass is not helping me with phrasing etc (it is as it was when it was delivered). I can't afford a full set up (£400+) so am just going to get the bridge lowered and the nut adjusted acccordingly. I have it in mind to get the other bits and bobs done in time (when all the extra gigs I get by being a double bass player come rolling in .... ) but, in the meantime, a simple lowering of the action will loosen things up for me.

I have a gig undfer my own name next month and I have chosen to put in a trio of bass, drums and tenor sax. No harmony instrument. Scary and there is a high risk that I will fall on my arse but I just feel like I have played it too safe for too long and I wanted to stick my neck out. Have booked two great sidemen who are willing to try this so am happy with that end of things and I will be debuting a few of my own pieces but, either way, I need this for my soul!

A lower action may help...