Question For You Music Readers Out There

[Pete Academy]

I don't read music. However, I've always wondered how you can write a piece of music and inform the reader that it grooves. For instance, if you've been in a situation where you have to sight-read a piece of music and you never heard it before, as it's an original piece, how do you know where to make it groove? Is it just instinctive?

[thumperbob 2002]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='657380' date='Nov 17 2009, 07:17 PM']I don't read music. However, I've always wondered how you can write a piece of music and inform the reader that it grooves. For instance, if you've been in a situation where you have to sight-read a piece of music and you never heard it before, as it's an original piece, how do you know where to make it groove? Is it just instinctive?[/quote]

Now thats a question!! Andrew Gouche says you cant write this sort of thing down- no doubt there are some expert readers here- (I`m not one ) - that will disagree. Marcus Miller said he was paid so much because he could sight read a new piece of music and it sounded like he had played it for years.

Then again what is Groove- does it exist? Can it be described on paper?

probably- but by a better player ( reader ) than me.

Bob

[Pete Academy]

How could you possibly write down a Rocco Prestia track, so that the player knew how to make it groove like he does? Are there any tricks you can use?

[Doddy]

What if you are playing an original piece and you just 'jam' it? How do you know how
to make it groove?
For me,the only difference when reading it that is it tells you what to play. It's easy enough
to tell if it's straight or swung or whatever,but like everything else it then comes down to interpretation.

It's easy enough to write down a Rocco line,but no one will play it the same as Rocco will-reading
or not.

[xgsjx]

Writing score isn't just about putting dots in the right places for the notes.
There's note length, rests, timing & multiple terms that help explain the feel or groove of what is to be played.
Hope this explains a little. I'll try & get on my mac later & go into a bit more detail(if someone else doesn't).

[chris_b]

Being "in the pocket" isn't written down, it's how you play and react with the other musicians. This is the extra you get from A list session players.

[Bilbo]

Its not just about the dots. Its also about understanding the genre you are playing in. A classical player who can read anything cannot just go into a jazz or a rock session and make it happen without some comprehension of the medium they are engaging with. I had a BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra first bassist dep for me in a big band once (his call) but, despite reading every note 'correctly' he didn't come even close to swinging. If you ever read a classical score along with the music being played, you will quickly realise that the dots are only a part of the story. You have to know the genre.

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='658068' date='Nov 18 2009, 01:33 PM']Its not just about the dots. Its also about understanding the genre you are playing in. A classical player who can read anything cannot just go into a jazz or a rock session and make it happen without some comprehension of the medium they are engaging with. I had a BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra first bassist dep for me in a big band once (his call) but, despite reading every note 'correctly' he didn't come even close to swinging. If you ever read a classical score along with the music being played, you will quickly realise that the dots are only a part of the story. You have to know the genre.[/quote]

Fully agree. Interpretation and empathy/understanding of the musical situation very very important!

[TimR]

When you read a passage from a book out loud, how do you know what emphasis to put on what words and phrases? You could read the words in a foreign language because you know the letters, but it would be very hard to pronounce the words and phrases.

Can you 'speak' Funk, Jazz, swing, death metal, pop? Would you like to be multi-lingual in music or would you just listen and play classical music?

Edited November 18, 2009 by TimR

[OutToPlayJazz]

I often tell pupils to "play it how they'd sing it" - This often helps them to understand that it's not just a series of notes to be played, but that the music also needs an overarching feeling and their own interpretation. Musicality is so difficult to explain to people in simple terms, but the often misused term of "grooving" basically means to "fit in" with the other instruments and to give the piece/line some shape out of the blandness of the notation or the given sequence.

[jude_b]

If anyone's interested, the online Italian dictionary says "con ritmo".

Apologies to any Italian speakers out there if I've just said something offensive.

I find that written music for, say, the piano, and particularly classical, is much easier to interpret along the right lines without hearing the piece first.

I've personally found that, in any case, standard notation transcriptions for bass can be pretty patchy and can only be used as a guide - particularly if there's slapping involved. I learnt a huge amount from a book called "Basslines" (can't remember the author right now), which included transcriptions of Mark King, Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller and Jaco pieces. However, for some of the songs/pieces I had trouble tying in the transcriptions with what I was hearing on record (possibly my failing). Again, I learnt some of the pieces before hearing the records and, I think, I was further away on the funkier stuff than, say on the melodic/classical-ish pieces.

In short, I agree that groove is difficult to notate. Although, saying that, I now remember some Gershwin piano preludes, where the groove came naturally from the left hand rhythm. Perhaps you need a good transcription, reading abilities and the experience of the type of music you're playing. I suspect the real answer lies in being a good enough reader/player to really pick up the rhythm from a good transcription.

[robocorpse]

Its one of those situations where it might possibly be best left, theres no way to teach feel unless you either have a proper groovemeister giving you one to one tuition (and you have the empathy required for the piece/genre), or you spend years perfecting it in your bedroom while you play along to other peoples stuff and try to gain some insight into how they played it, and more importantly realising how your own technique can either be adapted to suit theirs, or can be developed into a happy medium. I assume this is how most people get their groove on, by being inspired by player(s) and after having given up trying to ape them, they gradually work out they can sound good by adding the hero worship into their own style and coming up with something unique to them that sounds good and works in the context of what they are trying to play, if only by improving your own "lick library" of your fave bits of other peoples stuff. Thats certainly how I got my technique together, and its served me well the last 29 years of playing. To this day, I cannot sight-read, but I know so many people who I think have suffered from "reading the dots" for too long and not knowing how to make them swing, that I would rather be happy in my ignorance of the staves. It is rare to find a "proper" (classically trained) musician who can sight read, AND groove.


[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='658096' date='Nov 18 2009, 02:01 PM']I often tell pupils to "play it how they'd sing it" - This often helps them to understand that it's not just a series of notes to be played, but that the music also needs an overarching feeling and their own interpretation. Musicality is so difficult to explain to people in simple terms, but the often misused term of "grooving" basically means to "fit in" with the other instruments and to give the piece/line some shape out of the blandness of the notation or the given sequence.[/quote]

[pete.young]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='658068' date='Nov 18 2009, 01:33 PM']Its not just about the dots. Its also about understanding the genre you are playing in. A classical player who can read anything cannot just go into a jazz or a rock session and make it happen without some comprehension of the medium they are engaging with. I had a BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra first bassist dep for me in a big band once (his call) but, despite reading every note 'correctly' he didn't come even close to swinging. If you ever read a classical score along with the music being played, you will quickly realise that the dots are only a part of the story. You have to know the genre.[/quote]

Absolutely. Anyone who thinks that you read the dots, and just the dots, doesn't get it, never will. And this is also true for reading classical music scores.

[Owen]

The Marcus Miller comment was interesting and crystalises why the top players always work and get paid top dollar. I have been around people (John Parricelli - guitarist, being the best) who can sight read the most obscene fly s***t on paper and make it sound like they have been honing that piece for years. It was a humbling experience. My reading is good, but I realised that I was in the presence of real quality. Interstingly, the better the player the less you are aware of it until they actually play.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='658630' date='Nov 18 2009, 10:03 PM']It is rare to find a "proper" (classically trained) musician who can sight read, AND groove.[/quote]
Thats just simply not the case. I know many straight trained musicians who are very capable groovers indeed. It's a commonly held misconception... usually by people who seek to justify a deficit. And before you say there are many groovers who can't read who don't have a deficit, that's true but it doesn't undermine the validity of my point

It's true that many classical players are not involved in other genres but the classical repertoire is big enough to justify that.

[robocorpse]

I'm not trying to justify anything mate, just talking form my own experience of working with classically trained musicians who are top notch in the field, but are absolutely wooden when faced with anything vaguely "pop". I personally would rather go with someone who knows jack sh.t about the workings and can just hit it.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='658673' date='Nov 18 2009, 10:37 PM']Thats just simply not the case. I know many straight trained musicians who are very capable groovers indeed. It's a commonly held misconception... usually by people who seek to justify a deficit. And before you say there are many groovers who can't read who don't have a deficit, that's true but it doesn't undermine the validity of my point

It's true that many classical players are not involved in other genres but the classical repertoire is big enough to justify that.[/quote]

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='658692' date='Nov 18 2009, 10:50 PM']I'm not trying to justify anything mate, just talking form my own experience of working with classically trained musicians who are top notch in the field, but are absolutely wooden when faced with anything vaguely "pop". I personally would rather go with someone who knows jack sh.t about the workings and can just hit it.[/quote]
Yet you see fit to speak of the many classically trained players that you haven't worked with whose capabilities you know nothing of and state categorically that it's rare to meet one that can groove.
Thats just wrong in my experience.
I have known and worked with loads of royal college, royal northern etc etc players and loads of them are m*****f***er groovers and can play in tons of styles and read (with feeling) anything you care to put in front of them.
So I think your assertion while it might speak for your experience is not the case for all.

[Doddy]

I don't know one person who has 'suffered' from reading. It does sound like you are trying
to justify a reason for not reading. Besides,I know loads of non-readers who can't groove or swing for
toffee.
Reading does not hurt your feel or make you a 'robot'-I don't care what anyone says. The only time I hear anything negative
is from people who can't do it.
Without hi-jacking the thread(sorry Pete),Let's look at it another way-I don't get why people would not want to read.
It's part of the language of music and opens up so many doors that are unavailable to non-readers-from
educational material to gigs.

[xgsjx]

Most "grooves" are formed when playing with other musicians, that's one thing, & getting it to sound the way it does depends on the bassist, but the "groove" itself can be written down. Below each note on the stave can be written which finger is to be used (t, i, m, r, p) & can be said to be slap or finger.
"h" & "p" on a tie from one note to another indicate hammer-on & pull-off or "tr" for trill & small dots below the larger dots (notes) indicate staccato (which also used with full length notes give that "groove") & X marks a dead note.
Like is said above, it helps if you know the genre that you're playing but that's kinda logical.
Gotta go, but back soon (hopefully).

[velvetkevorkian]

Conventional slap notation is a nightmare to sightread though. I think the OP was thinking more of the overall feel, which as has been said, basically takes getting used to.

[Pete Academy]

My original thought was this: You are a reader, and suddenly get a call to dep for a show or session, where you have never heard the tunes before, and circumstances don't allow you to do so. Would the dots and rests and accents signpost you enough to be able to play the music as it was originally intended to sound and feel?

[xgsjx]

Every musician has their own style & this is what makes a great bassist. To interpret what is written & make it sound like that is how it goes.
If you take two great bassists that can sightread & give them the same piece of music to play, they will both play it the same, note for note & length of time each note is held for but at the same time it will also have "their" sound (due to their finger style & the way they hold the bass & multiple other factors).
If they're playing with a band then they would give an indication of what sort of feel it should have.
Hope this makes some sense.

[Marvin]

I can't read (music), but I would say 'feel' definitely comes from the player not the paper. When I say feel, I mean how to 'attack' the strings and all those nuances that provide feel.

I picked up the music for a funk number a while back. I can go through and work out what is played, notes, how long to hold, pauses etc. But I come from listening to lots of alternative rock, rock and indie inspired material. I find playing funk difficult because I can't communicate the feel of funk when I play it.

Please ignore if this doesn't make sense or you find irrelevant.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='658864' date='Nov 19 2009, 08:16 AM']My original thought was this: You are a reader, and suddenly get a call to dep for a show or session, where you have never heard the tunes before, and circumstances don't allow you to do so. Would the dots and rests and accents signpost you enough to be able to play the music as it was originally intended to sound and feel?[/quote]

If I get called at short notice for a reading gig that is pop, funk or rock orientated, I will have no trouble fitting in. If the call was for something orchestral, I would be out of my depth completely. Its not the dots that makes the gig a runner, its the genre. You don't necessarily need to know every pop tune or rock tune etc to pull it off. You need to know the 'default' variable of the genre. If I get a call for a Latin gig, I can deliver because I have digested most Latin sub genres. I may not know the tunes but I will know how to play a samba, a bossa, xote or guaguanco which are some groove types in Latin music. Its no different that if someone says it a swing tune, or a shuffle or a ballad. Each song form has its own protocols that determine the varaibles within which you will be expected to work. It doesn't mean you can't throw in something fresh or original but it does give you a sense of what the core expectations are. It all gets more complicated the more folkloric the material is. So, if a Brazillian singer/ guitarist says 'bossa', it will be different that a jazz pianist saying the same thing. So there are levels of competence from good enough to great depending on levels of professionalism required. Often the dots are like a script. They tell you what to say but it is up to you, the interpreter of those dots, to make it live and breath; like a great actor reading that script vs. a layman just reciting it in a monotone.

[Doddy]

[quote name='robocorpse' post='658692' date='Nov 18 2009, 10:50 PM']I personally would rather go with someone who knows jack sh.t about the workings and can just hit it.[/quote]

So why are guys like Steve Pearce,Paul Westwood,Phil Mulford, and Trevor Barry (to name a few) so busy?
Because they can 'hit it' and know what they are doing. I'd much rather hire someone like this than a player
who can only 'busk' it.

Back to the Pete's question,understanding the basics of a range of genres is a big part of
interpreting charts. If you know the stylistic differences between,say, Rock,Jazz and Country,
you can apply the correct feels to the music as you are reading them.
The charts give you all the information regarding what to play,but it's up to the player to interpret
it the correct way.