Rumble Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 After watching some youtube clips of guys posting themselves playing bass in a way I only dream of I have to ask myself whether talent is a bit like velocity? If you drop a box from the top of the Eiffel tower it will reach terminal velocity when resistance (by air) equals (although is opposite to) the force and acceleration of gravity i.e. it reaches it's terminal velocity because air resistance stops it from continuing to accelerate. Do you think talent is the same? Is there that point where you just won't get any better no matter how much time you spend practicing? I have to think there is, because otherwise there'd be a vast number of Victor Wooten's and Anthony Jackson's out there and there isn't. Is there peace to be found in saying to yourself "[i]I'm mediocre and I'll probably always be mediocre, but that's OK[/i]"?! or is that just being defeatist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hit&Run Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 [quote name='Rumble' post='72336' date='Oct 10 2007, 07:20 PM']Is there peace to be found in saying to yourself "[i]I'm mediocre and I'll probably always be mediocre, but that's OK[/i]"?! or is that just being defeatist?[/quote] I don't see any real limits myself, other than the fact I'm really lazy. Big name players got to where they are because they practiced their craft instead of drinking cider and setting fire to things like I did. I suppose there must be some physical limitations; but like an athlete you can still 'hone' yourself to improve. Any chimp (with practice) can ape a 'big name' player, but crafting a bassline of their own may make them sweat. The other day I read something which half surprised me,it was an anecdote about Yngwie Malmsteen. Yngwie had ovheard another guitarist bragging that he could "play Yngwie's licks faster than Yngwie could", to Which Malmsteen (rather wittily) replied something like: "That's nice. Can you play any of your own?" I never thought I'd hear Yngwie backing the virtues of originality over speed & technical proficiency! I don't want to be the cat among the pigeons but as far as I'm aware, no one outside of musicians circles listens to or cares about 'advanced' playing anyway. Except a few die-hard jazz fans maybe? It's like Mozza sings: "Because the music that they constantly play, IT SAYS NOTHING TO ME ABOUT MY LIFE" As an analogy, Sunday league football players aren't going to be as good as [i]Henry [i]or[/i] Ronaldo[/i], but that doesn't mean that they should stop playing or even label themselves mediocre. Only you will really know what you're capable of, and if you've played your best or went on autopilot for a couple of numbers. I think everyone still has some room for improvement. I have a lot of room for it. Anyway, that's me done. I don't even know if I've answered your questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 How many vituoso bass players have platinum discs or can sell out Wembly? I can think of 2 or 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 [quote name='Hit&Run' post='72508' date='Oct 10 2007, 11:44 PM']I don't see any real limits myself, other than the fact I'm really lazy.[/quote] The roles of virtuoso, songwriter and bandmember aren't that easy to reconcile because of the fact above - there just isn't time to do everything to your maximum potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnt Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 One of those platinum-selling bassists was at a sold-out Wembley Arena tonight, coincidentally. I think he wouldn't be as famous if all he did was play bass, and he owes a lot to a strong proficiency in melodies and arrangements, and a distinctive singing voice. I'm talking about Geddy, of course. Personally, I've run in to things my fingers can not do: I can't get them to move as quickly and precisely as required. Without going in to too much detail, that is not likely to improve, and may get worse, but that's not going to stop me trying various things. I don't think I need to be that technically advanced to get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3V17C Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 hmmm interesting post. i think generally the thing (for me at least) that slowed progress back in the day was just life! when you first start playing bass you do it all the time: take your guitar to school, friends house afterwards, sit and noodle while watching tv etc etc but as you get older things like work, girlfriends, kids etc come along meaning less time to spend practising and therefore improving. Its ok for players like Sheehan, Vai, Wooten etc to practice 8 hrs a day because they've not got day jobs to worry about, but I certainly couldn't (and probably wouldn't want to!). I think anything is physically possibly to play though and while we may struggle with certain Wooten licks/techniques or whatever, similarly he might struggle with some of ours. Ok these people are exceptional talents but I'm sure theres equally skilled people on here and elsewhere who just don't get the recognition because they're not signed/touring etc or perhaps are just happy to be bedroom players. Personally, these days I do try to practice much more, but the hard thing is not to just play same old routine chops all the time which i can already do so isn't really advancing anything. Always make a point of trying to come up with something new every time. peace c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theosd Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I really doubt Victor Wooten would have any trouble playing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 there is always going to be a certain amount of natural talent and dexterity that these top players have always had and have then built on. us mere mortals have to practice hard to get to a certain standard and as long as that standard fit into what you play then thats good. I used to play alot when i was at uni but not in a band and used to play around 3 hrs a day playing along to my favourite bands but always got stuck on certain songs. when i came back and started playing in a band i found some of those early songs i struggled with i can now play but i practice alot less so no idea why that works. the terminal velocity thing is probably true for me to a certain extent but i suppose if i put the time in anything would be possible but the terminal velocity is caused by outside things stopping me from practicing in fact i cant rememebr the last time i actually made time t practice at home and only play at rehersals once a week so i've hit a flat spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 [quote name='Rumble' post='72336' date='Oct 10 2007, 07:20 PM']..... Is there that point where you just won't get any better no matter how much time you spend practicing? Is there peace to be found in saying to yourself "[i]I'm mediocre and I'll probably always be mediocre, but that's OK[/i]"?! or is that just being defeatist?[/quote] Talent and ability are different things, they are variable and both have a limit. For example I think Paul McCartney is very talented but doesn't have a lot of ability. Thing is, he doesn't need much ability. Some people never reach their limit some don't even try. I think I am a good average in both respects and it makes me very happy with my lot when I see bass players who eclipse me in both areas and don't play as well in a band situation, because they can't play as well WITH other people. Thats another talent. Always push yourself to be better but at the same time be happy with what you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I think the level of technical ability you reach can always increase, although the better you get, the harder it is to improve. What is Victor going to do next? Nothing different, but maybe a bit faster. You have to decide why you're playing the bass, and then keep challenging yourself in those key areas. So it may be that you want to just rock out in a covers band playing root notes with your pick, or you may want to be a great bassline writer for original stuff in a band. You may want to compose you own music, or songs, or you may want to become a bass virtuoso. I never want to be as good as Victor. I can see the appeal in it, but i'm more interested in writing songs with my bands mates, and in shaping the sound and feel of these songs. I hardly ever play the bass outside of our band practices, and I think that is the reason I don't really progress technically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 [quote name='Rumble' date='Oct 10 2007, 07:20 PM' post='72336'] After watching some youtube clips of guys posting themselves playing bass in a way I only dream of I have to ask myself whether talent is a bit like velocity? If you drop a box from the top of the Eiffel tower it will reach terminal velocity when resistance (by air) equals (although is opposite to) the force and acceleration of gravity i.e. it reaches it's terminal velocity because air resistance stops it from continuing to accelerate. Do you think talent is the same? Is there that point where you just won't get any better no matter how much time you spend practicing? I have to think there is, because otherwise there'd be a vast number of Victor Wooten's and Anthony Jackson's out there and there isn't. Is there peace to be found in saying to yourself "[i]I'm mediocre and I'll probably always be mediocre, but that's OK[/i]"?! or is that just being defeatist? MB1. How many utube bassists are currently available to prove this point,could be difficult dropping them from the eiffel tower though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble Posted October 11, 2007 Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 [quote name='MB1' post='72891' date='Oct 11 2007, 03:17 PM']MB1. How many utube bassists are currently available to prove this point,could be difficult dropping them from the eiffel tower though![/quote] I like....LOL If you give me some time, I might be able to think of a couple we could try it with!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' post='72757' date='Oct 11 2007, 12:43 PM']I never want to be as good as Victor. I can see the appeal in it, but i'm more interested in writing songs with my bands mates, and in shaping the sound and feel of these songs.[/quote] i'm with you there, but i'd debate the use of the word 'good' i see virtoso bass players like victor wooten on youtube, etc. and so on and it just does not appeal to me...to be honest it bores me stupid a lot of the time. i can appreciate the skills, but it's not where i'd like to be, bass-playing wise. now...coming up with a good bassline to a tune where what you do complements what's going on in the rest of the tune - [i]that's[/i] important to me. but ymmv as always Edited October 11, 2007 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Yeh, well, I never want to be a technically skilled a Victor. The drummer in my band is really into all of these solo drummers on drummerworld.com and youtube etc, which are similar to all the amazing bassists around. They play technically brilliant stuff, and it either gives me a headache or fades into the background. 10 minutes of drum soloing should contain more than 10 seconds of groove! Same goes for bassists, occasionally I want to hear a funky solo, but only in the middle of a funky bassline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share Posted October 12, 2007 [quote name='cheddatom' post='72918' date='Oct 11 2007, 04:19 PM']....I want to hear a funky solo, but only in the middle of a funky bassline.[/quote] Head, nail, hit.... Says it all really. I guess it really is more a case of being as proficient as you can and what you need to be proficient at doing. Ta guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul, the Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think it all depends on the person and their environment and background. I don't believe anyone can become a virtuoso musician, thus the very nature and power that the word holds. If one desires to grasp what they cannot obtain it may only lead to suffering anyway. Was Jaco not severely depressed? Regardless of his love of music and his ability to produce it, it did not make him happy. Find peace with your natural ability. Be proud of your personal achievement and steady improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 +1 to all the above. be yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='paul, the' post='73615' date='Oct 13 2007, 12:32 AM']I think it all depends on the person and their environment and background. I don't believe anyone can become a virtuoso musician, thus the very nature and power that the word holds. If one desires to grasp what they cannot obtain it may only lead to suffering anyway. Was Jaco not severely depressed? Regardless of his love of music and his ability to produce it, it did not make him happy. Find peace with your natural ability. Be proud of your personal achievement and steady improvement.[/quote] Why can't just anyone become a virtuoso? If I practiced 10 hours everyday for the next 10 years, I would be as good as victor, i'm pretty sure of that, and I think anyone could do it. I don't think playing music can cure anyone's depression. Especially if they're full of drugs all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 No. Its like saying anyone can play football like George Best if they practice enough. You have to have that spark of genius as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumb4bob Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='73728' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:47 AM']No. Its like saying anyone can play football like George Best if they practice enough. You have to have that spark of genius as well.[/quote] +1 There got to be a balance of natural talent/hard graft as to where the line lies between these two it would depend on the individual also sometimes an amazing amount of natural talent can work against people, gazza and marradona never practiced in the last 10 years of their career simply because they didn't feel they needed to I don't think Liniker went to many training sessions either I appologise for the footballing examples but I don't really know how often people like wooten/stanley clarke practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 (edited) I submit that the limit of your technical ability functions in a similar fashion to an asymptope: [i]Ignore the line in the top left corner.[/i] Imagine this graph has [b]technical ability[/b] on the y-axis and [b]time and effort put into practice/study[/b] on the x-axis. When you start out, even a little time gives you a huge gain. Your first half hour of playing sees you going from having never hit a note, to fretting with the left hand and plucking with the right. A massive improvement. And your theory knowledge has gone from being aware that some notes are higher than others, to knowing that an octave has twelve steps from E to E. A huge progression. As you get better, though, the difference is less obvious. Today, do 16ths at 80bpm. Tomorrow, do 16ths at 85bpm. Eventually you will hit something of a ceiling where for all the work you are putting in, the gains feel so small that you are no longer motivated to keep pushing it. Or, you keep pushing it, but you can't tell that you're getting better. Maybe? Edited January 10, 2008 by Cantdosleepy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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