The bass, the wood...the electronics...

[Kongo]

This is one such phenomenon that eludes me...Your told that pickups pick up vibrations from your strings that are then turned into a current that goes into an amp, gets amplified...and this is how your sound is made...If this is how it is to be...why does the wood matter?
It does, and I know this but how?

I have a few basses of varying wood type and density and all of them carry the natural sound (when played unplugged) as well as the tone of the pickups and / or Preamp...the denser the wood, the woodier the sound...the softer the wood, the flatter the sound...

How is this?

I'm looking to mod some of them but, if the wood will always affect the sound...is there any point? Can any preamp and pickup combination overcome this?

Edited November 21, 2009 by Kongo

[CHRISDABASS]

I really like this subject

Im not educated well enough to explain how it works but in my experience ive found that the wood makes a huge difference to the tone of an instrument

its also discussed at length here

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311493"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311493[/url]

hope that helps

[Mr. Foxen]

Vibrations go from the strings to the wood, bounce about a bit and then come back to the strings, the body moves as well as the string. Some stuff like 'tone' can be modifed by pickups and electrickery. Stuff like sustain, not so much.

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='660705' date='Nov 21 2009, 12:48 AM']I really like this subject

Im not educated well enough to explain how it works but in my experience ive found that the wood makes a huge difference to the tone of an instrument

its also discussed at length here

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311493"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311493[/url]

hope that helps

[/quote]

The link i posted seems to be annoyingly useless in parts (which i apologise for) im gonna find something more useful

lol

[sdgrsr400]

I've found quite a difference between through-neck and bolt-on neck construction too. However, after a rather nice bottle of Merlot I am unable to explain it

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='sdgrsr400' post='660721' date='Nov 21 2009, 01:37 AM']I've found quite a difference between through-neck and bolt-on neck construction too. However, after a rather nice bottle of Merlot I am unable to explain it [/quote]


Me too! (not the Merlot)

[Kiwi]

The wood in a bass provides the structural rigidity but it also dampens certain frequencies selectively which gives it tonal character. Basses that have graphite composite necks also have a frequency response but its normally less marked so the instrument often sounds more responsive but across a broader range of frequencies, some of which may not necessarily sound attractive.

The pickups have inherent tonal characteristics, all pickups have a frequency peak but their design influences where that peak happens and how significant it is.

The preamp can also have a tonal character if it has been designed with a mid scoop (like Aguilar) or bass boost (like the GB circuits). Its also possible to get preamps with sweepable bands but a sweepable band is never going to compensate for the characteristics of wood because the peaks in wood are that much sharper and narrower in width.

Depending on the desired end result, a bass maker can select elements so that similar frequency characteristics are enhanced (eg. Stingray), compensatory (Pedulla) or as neutral as possible (Alembic).

[hillbilly deluxe]

I have 4 basses,2 that are barely audible when played un-plugged,and 2 that can be heard un-plugged.Of the latter 2,one sounds great plugged in,the other is weak and characterless.
Of the first 2,(my 1st & backup basses) the Jazz 5 (passive) sounds amazing,the other one (active)not a patch in both tone and volume on my first choice.
I think that the basses finish can make a huge difference too,i've never got on with poly coated basses,almost all the ones that had "it" for me were either cellulose or un-finished.
I ca'nt explain it,it's just some things work together and this is the "mojo" that a bass has.

[Sean]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='660706' date='Nov 21 2009, 12:48 AM']Vibrations go from the strings to the wood, bounce about a bit and then come back to the strings, the body moves as well as the string. Some stuff like 'tone' can be modifed by pickups and electrickery. Stuff like sustain, not so much.[/quote]

A brilliant example of this can be found with my Spector NS5 and Euro5. Both have the same pickups and preamp and both are neck-through maple; the big difference is that one has solid maple wings and the other has poplar/walnut/alder wings. Although the pickups are mounted on to the maple thru-neck the whole instrument vibrates when played and the different properties of each bass resulting from the different tone woods affect the string vibration and hence the sound is different between the two.

The more you change the variables the more different the sound gets. And boy, are there some variables

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Kongo' post='660700' date='Nov 21 2009, 12:27 AM']I'm looking to mod some of them but, if the wood will always affect the sound...is there any point? Can any preamp and pickup combination overcome this?[/quote]

Im no expert (quite the opposite really) but i recently change the pups on my Lakland DJ5 to a split coil P and a split coil Jazz and it still has the same dark tone quality it had with two single coils pup.
Im pretty amazed at this. The bass was very deep sounding when i got it and i thought changing the pups would cure this but it didnt.

[henry norton]

[quote name='Kongo' post='660700' date='Nov 21 2009, 01:27 AM']I'm looking to mod some of them but, if the wood will always affect the sound...is there any point? Can any preamp and pickup combination overcome this?[/quote]


There's always a point, the number of threads regarding electronics and pickups on this forum alone will tell you that. Some pieces of wood just seem to work better as a bass body/neck than others - that's why you can pick up two otherwise identical Fenders and one sounds lively and resonant and the other sounds dull and lifeless. The type of wood will have some effect on the timbre (the frequencies that make up the sound), but even the most seasoned electric guitar luthiers are at the mercy of the wood to some degree or another. An archtop guitar luthier will carve, scrape and generally work a top & back until they get the desired resonance, something you can't really do with a two inch slab of hardwood.

If the bass sounds good to begin with, fitting better pickups will make a huge difference, as will a good pre. Whether you'll like that difference is another matter

[Happy Jack]

Try basing yourself here ( [url="http://www.theguitarsherpa.com/categories/tonewood-sound-characteristics.html"]http://www.theguitarsherpa.com/categories/...cteristics.html[/url] ) for a while. I particularly like this site ( [url="http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm"]http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm[/url] ).

You'll never look at a guitar/bass in the same way again.

[gary mac]

nor sure it matters much when you are up against five guitards, keyboards and a loud drummer as I was at a rehearsal on tuesday night.

[KiOgon]

I don't know the technical answers but I can tell you a little story, are you sitting comfortably - - -
When I was 13/14 there were 4 of us, mates living within a stone throw of each other - who all got guitars about the same time, (I blame Hank Marvin & Bert Weedon mostly). So we started bashing it out together, (bad doesn't come close), but we tried & tried & tried again! Then Derek's big brother gave him his old drum kit, smashing - now we couldn't hear what we were playing. We knew someone had to get a bass but no-one had any money + we needed electric guitars + we needed amps! More weekday paper rounds & a Saturday butchers delivery job helped but there were so many things to spend it on, motorbikes, girls, beer, fags, music - in no particular order! Then I had a little crash on my bike & broke 3 fingers on my left hand. Hospitals were good in those days I remember the lovely nurse saying - in response to 'will I be able to play guitar again' - "probably not, you'd better get a bass, they've only got 4 strings!"

My dad was a carpenter or to give him his full title, (I remember his headed paper), 'Cabinet Maker, Carpenter & Joiner', which was fully deserved, he did a 7 year apprenticeship at Harland & Wolves shipyard in Belfast, fitting cabins out on luxury liners with wood the quality of which I'm sure is something we can only dream of nowadays.

Long story maybe - BUT - when I said 'Dad I need a bass guitar' & he said well we'll have to make one then! Next breath - [u][b]I'll have to find you some decent wood or it won't sound right[/b][/u][size="3"][/size]
How he knew that I shall never know, he passed away in 1984 so I can't ask him now, but he came home later that week with some beautiful pieces of timber, I believe it was Iroko for the body, Sapele for the neck with Rosewood for the fret board.

About that time I'd seen The Rolling Stones, probably on TOTP with Bill Wyman & Brian Jones using pear shaped or Teardrop guitars, so that was it - simple - no tricky cutaways - couldn't be easier! Many weeks in the workshop later, we had it made! I remember getting a catalogue from the local music shop showing the Vox teardrops, but mine was finished before I even saw that! I spent all my hard earnt on strings, single pup, T & V pots, bridge, nut & tuners, but couldn't get fret wire. Hours I spent calculating the fret positions, no calculators or computers then you know, then very carefully scribing the lines precisely on the rosewood. That was it - fingers getting better, no fret wire, so of course started playing it fretless - never looked back!

Yes it sounded fantastic, it was the only bass I had for many years, many bands, many gigs - in fact until 1973 I think, when I had saved enough, (I thought), about £400 IIRC, to get my dream - A Rickenbacker. Went to that London, every frigginbacker I tried was a piece of crap compared to what I'd been playing, I was so gutted, my aspirations shattered. Eventually I found my new love - Blonde of course - Italian I'd never heard of, my lovely Gherson Blonde Jazz bass.

[GreeneKing]

Nice tale, I'd love to see a photo of your original bass.

Bear in mind also that one piece of wood even from the same tree will have a different structure in terms of density and grain and will interact differently from another piece of wood with the same name.

[JTUK]

You never know how a bass will sound until you have thrown all the bits together.

Sure, some woods are known as good/decent combinations but a build is a leap of faith, to a degree... IMV
Active electronics takes a lot of the variables out of things which is why custom luthiers often offer it, I think

[KiOgon]

[quote name='GreeneKing' date='Nov 21 2009, 02:17 PM' post='661016']
Nice tale, I'd love to see a photo of your original bass.

One day I'll go through a massive drawer full of old photo's, but I can't remember any, maybe something taken in a dark corner at a gig in the back of a pub or club don't hold your breath

Next thing my dad was pressured into making a left handed 6 string for our lead guitarist, that turned into the most gorgeous 'fusion' guitar you ever saw! 1/2 Strat, 1/2 Rickie with a sprinkling of Vox & very much 'cack handed', he loved it!

Cheers!

[Lfalex v1.1]

All I do know is that my favourite 3 basses have varying degrees of graphite in them;
Status Streamline
Vigier Passion s3
MIA Fender Jazz

I think it's for two reasons:

i) Reduced vulnerablility to changes in temperature/ humidity
ii) The increased stability of the neck reduces neck movement as the strings are played, and [i]perhaps[/i] more of the vibration causes resonance in the body rather than flexing the neck.

I think that truss-rods play a part in the overall sound, too. The Vigier doesn't have one, and I reckon that it's a major contributory factor in its sound. It sounds smooth, with no unnatural ringing overtones. I find that it doesn't slap very well as a result. The all-graphite Status DOES have a truss rod, and slaps like a monster.
Still, basses would be boring if they were all the same. You just have to pick one that suits you!

[Kongo]

Wow how many replies!
I guess this is the 1 Million Pound question eh?

[quote name='henry norton' post='660833' date='Nov 21 2009, 10:19 AM']There's always a point, the number of threads regarding electronics and pickups on this forum alone will tell you that. Some pieces of wood just seem to work better as a bass body/neck than others - that's why you can pick up two otherwise identical Fenders and one sounds lively and resonant and the other sounds dull and lifeless. The type of wood will have some effect on the timbre (the frequencies that make up the sound), but even the most seasoned electric guitar luthiers are at the mercy of the wood to some degree or another. An archtop guitar luthier will carve, scrape and generally work a top & back until they get the desired resonance, something you can't really do with a two inch slab of hardwood.

If the bass sounds good to begin with, fitting better pickups will make a huge difference, as will a good pre. Whether you'll like that difference is another matter [/quote]

Well the bass in question does sound really nice unplugged with enough highs and lows across all 6 strings accordingly, but plugged in it sounds dull and flat, even extreme tweaking of the preamp EQ jus makes a more nasal or subby flat sound...

It's my Ibanez BTB556MP thats on the agenda here first. With maple top and bottom and walnut sandwiched in between.
It's on the top of my list for sustain and the natural tone is good, just plugged in...not snappy or aggressive enough.
It has the vari-mid preamp and Bartolini MK2 pups.

My other one I used before coming back to this is an Ibanez RD605 with a 2 band EQ Ibanez preamp and Basslines pups, one jazz in the neck one MM @ the bridge, this is the model with the proper Basslines not the later Ibanez designed ones and they are ceramic too!

My RD, made of much cheaper wood once plugged in sounds HUGE! Such POWERFUL low end, punchy mids and bell like highs...A little HOT in the signal and excites any amp its plugged into (turn the input DOWN LOL!)...with a switch for the preamp you can hear how it sounds passive...which is still massive and punchy but not as refined.

My thinking is then, maybe the RD over compensates with pickups...the preamp is great but is considered cheap.
But what could I switch my barts out with? There not proper ones, Korean made, but they are jus too weak in output...I have to crank it to about 1 o'clock on the input gain to get the sweet spot on my Trace Elliot head (thats the yellow light)...and the preamp seems to be...worthless.

I think the wood is good and if you think it is defo worth changing the pups and preamp then I might jus do that.
I'm just interested in the relation of why wood affects tone so much.

[henry norton]

Yeah you kind of got the answer there yourself Kongo. Barts aren't known for being particularly hot or especially aggressive so it's not surprising you're not getting a loud, aggressive sound. The wood adds allot to the sound but if the pickups aren't picking it all up you won't hear it through the amp. Presumably the money went on the woodwork rather than the fittings so it sounds like a perfect bass to hot rod. Have a trawl on the net for pickups, most alternatives will be louder and more aggressive than the Barts.

[JTUK]

agree with the above..

I have Barts in my manistay bass but I have just bought a new one ..and am not sure what the pups are..
Both have pre's, but the East retro has SO much more gain.. that I can't see a way..atm..of playing them on the same gig/settings..

I could subdue the pre boost somewhat but then I would sacrifice the sound I bought it for..to a degree.

It is early days... but if I can't sort this out, then they aren't compatible ..and I'll have to sell one..which I really didn't envisage having to do and it will be a shock..


so, be careful how far you go if you want the basses to retain similar qualities, not so much in sound but gain etc...

[Kongo]

[quote name='henry norton' post='661634' date='Nov 22 2009, 11:14 AM']Yeah you kind of got the answer there yourself Kongo. Barts aren't known for being particularly hot or especially aggressive so it's not surprising you're not getting a loud, aggressive sound. The wood adds allot to the sound but if the pickups aren't picking it all up you won't hear it through the amp. Presumably the money went on the woodwork rather than the fittings so it sounds like a perfect bass to hot rod. Have a trawl on the net for pickups, most alternatives will be louder and more aggressive than the Barts.[/quote]

One guy I know went Nordstrand pups, Audere preamp and SWEARS by it's tone which he says is "Second to none", and he got a lot of basses...But it's a costly endeavor if you get it wrong...Basslines do do soap bars but there active...I don't really want active pickups because 1) they wont drop right in and 2) some preamps such s as Audere say they dont work with active pickups...the pickups in my RD tell me that passive pickups are still good.

Which is worth swapping first? I'd say the pickups myself and then see what that does...What say you?

[quote name='JTUK' post='661806' date='Nov 22 2009, 02:37 PM']so, be careful how far you go if you want the basses to retain similar qualities, not so much in sound but gain etc...[/quote]

My RD is 5-string with 18mm spacing, the BTB 6-string with 17mm spacing...Cant play 6-string songs on a 5-string and thus, I don't play both in the same band...I only wish Ibanez made 6-string RD's or even still made them all together! GREAT basses with HUGE sound and coil tapping allows an array of tones...
But hey, if they did that my world would be perfect so...LOL!

Edited November 22, 2009 by Kongo

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Kongo' post='662269' date='Nov 22 2009, 11:42 PM']One guy I know went Nordstrand pups, Audere preamp and SWEARS by it's tone which he says is "Second to none", and he got a lot of basses...But it's a costly endeavor if you get it wrong...Basslines do do soap bars but there active...I don't really want active pickups because 1) they wont drop right in and 2) some preamps such s as Audere say they dont work with active pickups...the pickups in my RD tell me that passive pickups are still good.

Which is worth swapping first? I'd say the pickups myself and then see what that does...What say you?[/quote]

I swapped out the Bart MK1s on my Ibanez SR500 and replaced them with Nordstrand Big Singles. They're slightly narrower than the Barts but I wasn't bothered about cosmetics at all. If I was, I'd fit a pickguard to hide the gaps. At first I ran it through the MK1 pre but have now gone passive, and much prefer the single coil passive sound. However there is something of the 'dark' character of the bass that remains, giving it quite a thick tone. I assume this is due to the body (mahogany) and neck (bubinga/wenge with rosewood). When I flip the S1 switch I fitted when I converted to passive, it sounds massive.

My conclusion was that bad/poorly matched electronics can really 'choke' the tone of the wood, conversely a good bit will bring out the best in the wood's sonic properties. But the wood's fundamental tone is always there and you can't make mahogany sound like maple. I could be wrong.

[Kongo]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='663005' date='Nov 23 2009, 06:28 PM']I swapped out the Bart MK1s on my Ibanez SR500 and replaced them with Nordstrand Big Singles. They're slightly narrower than the Barts but I wasn't bothered about cosmetics at all. If I was, I'd fit a pickguard to hide the gaps. At first I ran it through the MK1 pre but have now gone passive, and much prefer the single coil passive sound. However there is something of the 'dark' character of the bass that remains, giving it quite a thick tone. I assume this is due to the body (mahogany) and neck (bubinga/wenge with rosewood). When I flip the S1 switch I fitted when I converted to passive, it sounds massive.

My conclusion was that bad/poorly matched electronics can really 'choke' the tone of the wood, conversely a good bit will bring out the best in the wood's sonic properties. But the wood's fundamental tone is always there and you can't make mahogany sound like maple. I could be wrong.[/quote]

Yeah Mahogany has quite a thick low end sound from my experience whereas Maple has defined highs and SHOULD be snappier...As it is unplugged but not plugged in...I really must look into this but I do wonder if it's worth doing or not I mean, it might do nothing or sound worse...and cost a bomb in doing so!
I'm not sure...there's so much to think about.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Kongo' post='663289' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:56 PM']Yeah Mahogany has quite a thick low end sound from my experience whereas Maple has defined highs and SHOULD be snappier...As it is unplugged but not plugged in...I really must look into this but I do wonder if it's worth doing or not I mean, it might do nothing or sound worse...and cost a bomb in doing so!
I'm not sure...there's so much to think about.[/quote]

If you were near Edinburgh I'd say come over and try my pickups in your bass. As it is, why not ask your friend with the Nordies if he'd mind doing a little experiment? Or anyone else you know with pickups that'd drop in. You don't even have to screw them down to get a rough idea of what they sound like. Based on my own experience I'd say it will definitely improve things swapping out the Korean Barts, and if the bass sounds good acoustically that's gotta be a good sign.

Be interested to hear what you decide and how it goes.