Beedster Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 [quote name='Stingray5' post='663263' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:26 PM']Sorry for the delay getting back to you, Chris. I can vouch for GuitarAvenue having known owner Gary Winterflood for around 30 years. He certainly knows his guitars and amps (that's including basses too!) Cheers, Steve[/quote] Hey Steve, thanks and no worries mate. Where are they based, there's a couple there that look promising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray5 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='663264' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:30 PM']Hey Steve, thanks and no worries mate. Where are they based, there's a couple there that look promising?[/quote] Based near to Chelmsford, Essex. Shoot him a quick email or give him a call (01245 401066). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 [quote name='Stingray5' post='663287' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:56 PM']Based near to Chelmsford, Essex. Shoot him a quick email or give him a call (01245 401066).[/quote] Cheers Steve, will do Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo-London Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 [quote name='Hutton' post='662538' date='Nov 23 2009, 11:54 AM']I found the same type of attitude. The first thing I asked was the price. When the female assistant told me I just said "Oh!" She then rather sarcastically said; "So you'll be wanting two then?" I didn't bother to ask anything else.[/quote] Actually, I quite like her. She's not as off-ish as some of the other fellas. Davo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 (edited) This search is proving interesting. Is it just that I've had back luck or do a lot of shops buy basses without really knowing what they're buying? There certainly seems to be quite a lot of "it used to belong to....." as if that in itself is evidence of authenticity? A couple of '64s' have also turned out to be somewhat later on closer inspection - folks seem to take the neck plate number alone as de facto evidence of vintage, which I find amazing, especially given Fender's history, even pre-CBS (does taking the neck off, as some people suggest, really represent a risk to the tone and structure of the instrument? OK, that was not a serious question! But one guy said - in response to my requesting pics of the heel and pocket - that as the neck's never been off the bass before he's not going to be the first to do so now!! OK, if he's not the original owner how the hell does he know this, and if he's never seen the pocket and heel, how the hell does he know what he's bought? Answer, he's either an idiot or it's a con). Rant over, the search continues Chris Edited November 26, 2009 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 [quote name='Stingray5' post='663263' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:26 PM']Sorry for the delay getting back to you, Chris. I can vouch for GuitarAvenue having known owner Gary Winterflood for around 30 years. He certainly knows his guitars and amps (that's including basses too!) Cheers, Steve[/quote] Thanks for the link Steve, had a chat with Gary and he's, as you suggest, a good guy and keen to help. Hopefully he's going to come back to me with something next week C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='663249' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:15 PM']Sad but true fact about the UK retail sector is that I've emailed several dealers in the UK and in the US regarding their respective '64s, and whilst most of the US dealers have got back to me not one of the UK dealers has. Gotta wonder if this is simpy because when you ask questions about provenance and originality, they can't answer them? C[/quote] Chris, I'd always advise picking up the phone for best result. Cheerss Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 [quote name='Toasted' post='666392' date='Nov 26 2009, 04:08 PM']Chris, I'd always advise picking up the phone for best result. Cheerss Joe.[/quote] Cheers Joe, you're bang on, in fact I kinda worked that out last week and now I'm on the phone to folks it's a much easier process. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 I don't know what it is - I do quite a bit of *cough*fashion*cough* internet shopping, and some places will never reply to an email but will treat you as a long lost friend on the phone, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray5 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='666373' date='Nov 26 2009, 03:51 PM']Thanks for the link Steve, had a chat with Gary and he's, as you suggest, a good guy and keen to help. Hopefully he's going to come back to me with something next week C[/quote] Excellent. Fingers and toes crossed for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodney72a Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 This one doesn't look too shabby... [url="http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guitarshop/64_Precbass.html"]http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guita...4_Precbass.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanbass1 Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rodney72a' post='667953' date='Nov 28 2009, 02:52 AM']This one doesn't look too shabby... [url="http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guitarshop/64_Precbass.html"]http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guita...4_Precbass.html[/url][/quote] Ouch - that is a lot of money. I don't understand how so much paintwork comes of a bass, especially in the places that this bass is missing paint. I have owned my '62 P Bass since '75 and took it on the road for six years in the late 70's/early 80's - also, played regularly since. It shows wear and I understand why, but I can't think of how the one at NewKingsRoadGuitars has been used! Edited November 28, 2009 by alanbass1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 [quote name='alanbass1' post='668642' date='Nov 28 2009, 07:38 PM']Ouch - that is a lot of money. I don't understand how so much paintwork comes of a bass, especially in the places that this bass is missing paint. I have owned my '62 P Bass since '75 and took it on the road for six years in the late 70's/early 80's - also, played regularly since. It shows wear and I understand why, but I can't think of how the one at NewKingsRoadGuitars has been used![/quote] Fair point Al. Any expert opinions out there (WoT, Bass Doc)? It certainly seems to have aged in a very different way to the 3TSB finishes of the same era? C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 [quote name='Hutton' post='662538' date='Nov 23 2009, 11:54 AM']I found the same type of attitude. The first thing I asked was the price. When the female assistant told me I just said "Oh!" She then rather sarcastically said; "So you'll be wanting two then?" I didn't bother to ask anything else.[/quote] I was in on Friday and saw the '64. Didn't try it. I found the general quality in there to be quite poor. There was a 77 P-bass which had a very odd neck and nut. Jazz width, E tuner strangely aligned and a very weirdly cut nut with uneven string spacing, they knew nothing about it when I asked, although they were generally quite helpful and chatty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougal Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I have no idea of what these things go for, but there's one on gumtree that's popped up for £2.5k: [url="http://www.gumtree.com/london/07/50151007.html"]http://www.gumtree.com/london/07/50151007.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 [quote name='dougal' post='669778' date='Nov 30 2009, 09:28 AM']I have no idea of what these things go for, but there's one on gumtree that's popped up for £2.5k: [url="http://www.gumtree.com/london/07/50151007.html"]http://www.gumtree.com/london/07/50151007.html[/url][/quote] Thanks Dougal, good spot. That's probably on the expensive side given the modifications, but I'm sure someone will take it. Unfortunately it's a 63 or I'd be going to have a look anyway! Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 [quote name='rodney72a' post='667953' date='Nov 28 2009, 02:52 AM']This one doesn't look too shabby... [url="http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guitarshop/64_Precbass.html"]http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guita...4_Precbass.html[/url][/quote] Did try last week but there were no takers, can anyone shed light on whether a Burgundy Mist finish should have aged like that? I've seen a couple of other basses with the same finish from the same era but both appear to have worn more conventionally, i.e., like the classic wear due to hand/arm contact you see on most old 3tsb finishes. Is this a badly done refin? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Beedster' post='662534' date='Nov 23 2009, 11:48 AM']Hiya mate, yes, I looked at that. I wasn't all that impressed by V&R though, they seemed unsure of too many important factors with both that bass and the two Jazz basses another BCer was looking at. At the price they're asking I'd need more than "we have it on good authority that it's all original" (I asked for the month of manufacture and they said they hadn't had the neck off to check, which worried me. Furthermore, if you haven't checked the pocket and cavity you surely can't state for sure it's the original finish). In short, and ironically, they seemed to have a pretty casual approach to demonstrating the 64's vintage or its rarity.[/quote] Sounds all too familiar. Any bass shop purporting to sell vintage instruments, should easily be able to supply paperwork warranting that they have inspected an instrument and documenting their findings. If they decline to do so and try to sell the instrument on a handshake, time to walk away. "Good authority" is not acceptable proof of an instrument's provenance and hearsay validation would never be acceptable in any other industry. [quote name='Beedster' post='663249' date='Nov 23 2009, 10:15 PM']Sad but true fact about the UK retail sector is that I've emailed several dealers in the UK and in the US regarding their respective '64s, and whilst most of the US dealers have got back to me not one of the UK dealers has. Gotta wonder if this is simpy because when you ask questions about provenance and originality, they can't answer them?[/quote] What is even worse is statements such as (for example), "we were told it was this year" or "we'd rather not remove the neck". If a shop sells an instrument represented as having certain characteristics, for example, year of build and that instrument then turns out to not fit the representation, the seller is still guilty of an offence under the old Trades Description Act. Such offences carry a 5K fine or a custodial sentence, depending on severity and "mistake" is no defence. So, whether the seller misprepresents goods knowingly or not, they are still committing the offence, which is one of strict liability. If a seller won't provide a piece of paper documenting their inspection and findings for an instrument, it's time to walk away. If the goods are as described, there should be no problem evidencing this in writing. A failure to do so indicates that the shop are either too incompetent or lazy to perform the requisite inspections, backed up in writing, or they are simply not being honest. Either way, such trading practice is deeply unprofessional and unethical. [quote name='Beedster' post='666371' date='Nov 26 2009, 03:50 PM']This search is proving interesting. Is it just that I've had back luck or do a lot of shops buy basses without really knowing what they're buying? There certainly seems to be quite a lot of "it used to belong to....." as if that in itself is evidence of authenticity? A couple of '64s' have also turned out to be somewhat later on closer inspection - folks seem to take the neck plate number alone as de facto evidence of vintage, which I find amazing, especially given Fender's history, even pre-CBS (does taking the neck off, as some people suggest, really represent a risk to the tone and structure of the instrument? OK, that was not a serious question! But one guy said - in response to my requesting pics of the heel and pocket - that as the neck's never been off the bass before he's not going to be the first to do so now!! OK, if he's not the original owner how the hell does he know this, and if he's never seen the pocket and heel, how the hell does he know what he's bought? Answer, he's either an idiot or it's a con). Rant over, the search continues[/quote] Again, a seller should not position an instrument as being of a certain year of manufacture, if they themselves have not, either, inspected the instrument fully and properly and are prepared to state material findings in writing, or, are already able to provide documentation detailing a prior inspection. If they waffle out ridiculous nonsense about their terms and conditions, again, walk away. It is consumer statutory rights that are relevant and a shop's terms and conditions cannot override the legal providence governing sale of goods. No point in wasting time and effort engaging in this discussion with anyone that tries to defend the indefensible, just take the business elsewhere. It is simple. If a shop or seller cannot stand by their representations of an instrument and back up what they say in writing, it's time to walk away and take the business to someone who will do the job properly. Verbal diarrhoea doesn't cut it for those living in the real world. Edited November 30, 2009 by AM1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='AM1' post='669845' date='Nov 30 2009, 11:00 AM']Sounds all too familiar. Any bass shop purporting to sell vintage instruments, should easily be able to supply paperwork warranting that they have inspected an instrument and documenting their findings. If they decline to do so and try to sell the instrument on a handshake, time to walk away. "Good authority" is not acceptable proof of an instrument's provenance and hearsay validation would never be acceptable in any other industry. What is even worse is statements such as (for example), "we were told it was this year" or "we'd rather not remove the neck". If a shop sells an instrument represented as having certain characteristics, for example, year of build and that instrument then turns out to not fit the representation, the seller is still guilty of an offence under the old Trades Description Act. Such offences carry a 5K fine or a custodial sentence, depending on severity and "mistake" is no defence. So, whether the seller misprepresents goods knowingly or not, they are still committing the offence, which is one of strict liability. If a seller won't provide a piece of paper documenting their inspection and findings for an instrument, it's time to walk away. If the goods are as described, there should be no problem evidencing this in writing. A failure to do so indicates that the shop are either too incompetent or lazy to perform the requisite inspections, backed up in writing, or they are simply not being honest. Either way, such trading practice is deeply unprofessional and unethical. Again, a seller should not position an instrument as being of a certain year of manufacture, if they themselves have not, either, inspected the instrument fully and properly and are prepared to state material findings in writing, or, are already able to provide documentation detailing a prior inspection. If they waffle out ridiculous nonsense about their terms and conditions, again, walk away. It is consumer statutory rights that are relevant and a shop's terms and conditions cannot override the legal providence governing sale of goods. No point in wasting time and effort engaging in this discussion with anyone that tries to defend the indefensible, just take the business elsewhere. It is simple. If a shop or seller cannot stand by their representations of an instrument and back up what they say in writing, it's time to walk away and take the business to someone who will do the job properly. Verbal diarrhoea doesn't cut it for those living in the real world.[/quote] Thanks Anne Marie, that's a useful post. It's been a pretty disheartening process to be honest (I think you had the same), there's just so much BS out there. Several guys, both private sellers and stores, have told me their particualr '64 is '100% original', only to start fudging when I point out that the bridge is wrong or the finish in the neck pocket is wrong for the finish on the body. OK, I don't really care TBH, but if it's advertised as 100% it damn well should be. Also the quality of set up on instruments in shops is often appaling, I don't mean slightly high action (which is preference anyway, as long as it can come down that is) or poor intonation, but basses that are simply unplayable or have such poor electrics that they cannot be evaluated. If, as has been said, "it's an easy fix" well f**king well fix it then; if you're asking £4000 for the bass it's kind of the least you can do! I seriously wonder whether the traditional UK vintage market place is people who simply don't expect a playable instrument? Anyway, I think I've exhausted the UK market and I haven't found many people with '64s I'd want to buy from. I will say that Steve at Chicago Music Exchange has probably been the most helpful dealer to date, but the costs (courier, VAT and import duty) on a £5,000 bass simply don't bear thinking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='671020' date='Dec 1 2009, 01:20 PM']Thanks Anne Marie, that's a useful post. It's been a pretty disheartening process to be honest (I think you had the same), there's just so much BS out there. Several guys, both private sellers and stores, have told me their particualr '64 is '100% original', only to start fudging when I point out that the bridge is wrong or the finish in the neck pocket is wrong for the finish on the body. OK, I don't really care TBH, but if it's advertised as 100% it damn well should be.[/quote] Hi again Chris, yes, very disheartening indeed. You are correct that there is so much BS out there. There is something deeply disappointing about finding an excellent Precision and setting your heart on it, only to find out in pre-sale enquiries that a shop/seller has not been entirely honest. It appears to be a relatively common practice to position older Precisions as 100% original, however my experiences are identical to yours, often when you drill down, the bass is not at all original, i.e. bridge/wiring/pots replacements etc. If a bass is positioned as completely original, anything less simply isn't good enough and being kept in the dark about the instrument's true characteristics doesn't enable appropriate price negotiations. Whether an instrument is intended for gigging or for collection purposes, the resale value of the instrument is compromised if the originality element is altered. This nonsense never happens when buying pieces of artwork, it is simply a given that the provenance and originality is countenanced by the seller, rather than the latent misrepresentations we're discussing. It is quite simply, unacceptable, to either "make up" the answers because the person can't be bothered finding out, or to simply lie, just the same as it is to make false representations of goods in any other industry, for example, when buying a car, house, etc. [quote name='Beedster' post='671020' date='Dec 1 2009, 01:20 PM']Also the quality of set up on instruments in shops is often appaling, I don't mean slightly high action (which is preference anyway, as long as it can come down that is) or poor intonation, but basses that are simply unplayable or have such poor electrics that they cannot be evaluated. If, as has been said, "it's an easy fix" well f**king well fix it then; if you're asking £4000 for the bass it's kind of the least you can do! I seriously wonder whether the traditional UK vintage market place is people who simply don't expect a playable instrument?[/quote] Absolutely agreed. You wouldn't spend 4k on a car and expect to tighten a too slack brake cable yourself. Nice to see someone else with proper standards and realistic expectations. [quote name='Beedster' post='671020' date='Dec 1 2009, 01:20 PM']Anyway, I think I've exhausted the UK market and I haven't found many people with '64s I'd want to buy from. I will say that Steve at Chicago Music Exchange has probably been the most helpful dealer to date, but the costs (courier, VAT and import duty) on a £5,000 bass simply don't bear thinking about [/quote] I feel your pain, but keep looking, these older Precisions are a tough quest, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 Wow, great day, played three '64s, two '63s, a '60, two '59s and a '56. Any of you guys wanna go and play some great old basses get yourselves down to New Kings Road Vintage Guitars, really friendly guys and some great stock (I think they have 50% of the world's Telebasses there). I have to say V&R have come through big time and were a whole lot more responsive and knowledgable than last time, NKRVG were also great, Bass Gallery and Bass Cellar the same. A few other shops in Denmark Street need a kick up the ar*e IMO! Might have found the '64 (although until I pushed the issue it was a '63.....) C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='669816' date='Nov 30 2009, 10:22 AM']Did try last week but there were no takers, can anyone shed light on whether a Burgundy Mist finish should have aged like that? I've seen a couple of other basses with the same finish from the same era but both appear to have worn more conventionally, i.e., like the classic wear due to hand/arm contact you see on most old 3tsb finishes. Is this a badly done refin? Chris[/quote] The fact that the wood isn't discoloured and the aspect of the paint finish suggests that it's not a refin job. The way it's aged is either 100% real or simply the most convincing relicing job I have ever clapped eyes on. It's worn largely as a result of temperature changes over forty-five years, which have caused extensive checking to the point where the paint has cracked off. Since it's an earlyish custom colour I would assume that Fender hadn't got the paint mix quite as durable as they would have liked - but nitro isn't eternal anyway. However - and this is a big however - the extent of the weathering does suggest that some of the parts aren't original, specifically the knobs and the pickup and bridge covers. If the paint job is in that bad a shape, I would expect to see an equivalent degree of wear on the metal surfaces, and these just look far too clean. A lot of the screw heads also look suspiciously rust-free. Look at the string retainer on the headstock, and the strap buttons. [i]That's[/i] consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='672740' date='Dec 3 2009, 01:06 AM']The fact that the wood isn't discoloured and the aspect of the paint finish suggests that it's not a refin job. The way it's aged is either 100% real or simply the most convincing relicing job I have ever clapped eyes on. It's worn largely as a result of temperature changes over forty-five years, which have caused extensive checking to the point where the paint has cracked off. Since it's an earlyish custom colour I would assume that Fender hadn't got the paint mix quite as durable as they would have liked - but nitro isn't eternal anyway. However - and this is a big however - the extent of the weathering does suggest that some of the parts aren't original, specifically the knobs and the pickup and bridge covers. If the paint job is in that bad a shape, I would expect to see an equivalent degree of wear on the metal surfaces, and these just look far too clean. A lot of the screw heads also look suspiciously rust-free. Look at the string retainer on the headstock, and the strap buttons. [i]That's[/i] consistent.[/quote] Thanks Max, I kinda thought the same. Off for another day of '64ing today, I'll keep you all posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 This is now sorted, thanks for all the help above guys. Details to follow. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='677114' date='Dec 7 2009, 08:07 PM']This is now sorted, thanks for all the help above guys. Details to follow. Chris[/quote] Exciting news Chris!!! Have you sold your house to finance it I wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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