Bad technique.

[MacDaddy]

Nobody would deny Jamerson's talent, but I don't think any bass tutor would teach their pupils to pluck with just one finger?

It's the question of personal technique I'm interested in. I play with fingers, using variations of i-m-r to pluck. For shredding I've developed a technique (probably through lazyness) whereby i and thumb are pinched together as if holding a pick. This works for me and I can play a lot faster than usual.

So the point is, do I stick with a technique that works, or should I make more of an effort to play 'properly'?

[garethox]

Stick with what works for you! Who decrees what is 'proper' and what is not? There are tons of techniques and different variations therein and if we all played the same way using the same method nothing would have changed in 40+ years.
I use thumbs, fingers (between 1 and 4 at any given time), tapping, typewriter, pick, nails, different angles... anything and everything to explore the instrument and see what new sounds I can get.....

[jakenewmanbass]

My response to things like this is always:
ask yourself what it sounds like...
does it sound less than good? can you hear anything that shouldn't be there (clicking etc)?
If it sounds ok and you are not harming yourself by doing it then it's fine.
Using examples of people like Jamerson to justify poor technique is unhelpful to yourself as you are using a musical colossus as a measuring stick. So my thinking is judge the technique on it's merits (or lack of them) rather than one of history's greatest players.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='665901' date='Nov 26 2009, 08:49 AM']My response to things like this is always:
ask yourself what it sounds like...
does it sound less than good? can you hear anything that shouldn't be there (clicking etc)?
If it sounds ok and you are not harming yourself by doing it then it's fine.
Using examples of people like Jamerson to justify poor technique is unhelpful to yourself as you are using a musical colossus as a measuring stick. So my thinking is judge the technique on it's merits (or lack of them) rather than one of history's greatest players.[/quote]

Well I could have used Bill Wyman playing with his thumb as the example

but I take your point .

[Bilbo]

I'm with Jake. Bad technique is different to unconventional technique. There are all sorts of ways of getting your strings to make noises and some of them are well documented: two finger technique, pop, slap etc. There are other odd idiosyncracies that we all have they evolve over time. I have all sorts of weird and wonderfull ways of making moises: on ballads and Latin tunes, for instance, I often mute strings with my palm and use the thumb like a classical guitar player would, playing the notes 'dead' - I heard Anthony Jackson making this sound and, in the absence on any other information on how he did it, developed a personal way of achieving it. I also get false harmonics the way a guitar player does rather than using Jaco's method of using the thumb. I also sometimes use the volume pot on my Wal to create the effect achieved by a guitar player with a volume pedal. I can even get a wah sound using the tone pots and the pot that balances the pick ups. All of these are little tricks and textures I have developed over the years. The secret is to make sure that the 'bad' techniques are not causing you harm (CTS, tendonitis etc) or prevevnting you from gaining the most potential out of your instrument.

Jamerson's one finger technique is no different to the double bass players of the time: Ray Brown, Paul Chambers (mostly) etc all used primarily on finger to make the noise. Geddy Lee is the same. Its not 'wrong' in any way at all just less popular amongst bass players today.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Bad technique is different to unconventional technique[/quote]
[quote]If it sounds ok and you are not harming yourself by doing it then it's fine[/quote]

More or less what I was going to say

Mark

[Major-Minor]

When I was first getting into jazz playing on DB in the 70's (I was already a pro classical player), I used to listen to British bass man Roy Babbington on record and on the radio. I thought his feel and sound were just what I wanted to emulate. I met him briefly in the 80's (at the "99" pub near the Royal Albert Hall) but it wasn't till about 5 years ago that I actually saw him playing. He played my bass on a couple of numbers at a jazz gig.

I could not believe my eyes ! He broke every conventional left hand rule in the book. Everything I had ever learned about bass playing technique he did the opposite. But the point is: he is an exceptional player. He could get round the DB with seemingly effortless ease.

Now, I would never try to copy his technique, it's too different from mine, and I would never encourage a student of mine to play in that way, because I wouldn't know how to justify his method like I do my own.

But you can't take away from him his exceptional agility on the DB and his wonderful musicality.

There isn't a "right" way to play any instrument. We all have our own preferences, and any good teacher will always insist on a student adhering to that tutor's methods, otherwise why have lessons ?

But we shouldn't decry another players style just because it isn't the same as our own. If we all played in the same way, how boring music would be !

The Major

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='665915' date='Nov 26 2009, 09:03 AM']Well I could have used Bill Wyman playing with his thumb as the example [/quote]

erm but you didn't

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='665915' date='Nov 26 2009, 09:03 AM']but I take your point .[/quote]
ditto

[Doddy]

Jamerson's technique was a result of years of playing the Upright.
The technique that you seem to be using sounds,to me,like what Bernard Edwards
used to call 'chucking'. I believe he did it on the middle section of 'Le Freak'.

As far as techniques go,there are certain things that I would always recommend
trying when I'm teaching,but it's totally cool to try 'unorthodox' techniques. As long
as you are not causing any damage to yourself,go for it.

[GonzoBass]

Yeah, The First Rule of Music applies here.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='666231' date='Nov 26 2009, 01:57 PM']The technique that you seem to be using sounds,to me,like what Bernard Edwards
used to call 'chucking'. I believe he did it on the middle section of 'Le Freak'.[/quote]

so I'm not being lazy, I've just been directly influenced by Bernard Edwards. That works

[Cat Burrito]

This is a great thread with some really interesting views. I found myself agreeing with Garethox only to scroll down and completely agree with Jakesbass! Er, so what do I know!? My view is therefore at best confused. I think there is a danger with comparing pro players to our own unperfected techniques (I'm thinking about myself here, so as we are clear) but also feel to an extent that the rule is there is no rule. Certainly it's best to be able to learn something properly before any corners are cut

[Alun]

+1 to the general consensus - as long it sounds good, allows you to do everything you need to, and doesn't harm you then it sounds fine by me.

I use various techniques but also play with just one finger a LOT - especially for walking lines. I personally find the tone a lot more consistent with one finger.

Cheers
Alun

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Alun' post='670262' date='Nov 30 2009, 06:37 PM']+1 to the general consensus - as long it sounds good, allows you to do everything you need to, and doesn't harm you then it sounds fine by me.[/quote]
+1.

But - not only in relation to playing bass but more generally too - standard techniques are standard because they are tried and tested and work effectively.

[quote name='Alun' post='670262' date='Nov 30 2009, 06:37 PM']I use various techniques but also play with just one finger a LOT - especially for walking lines. I personally find the tone a lot more consistent with one finger.[/quote]
I too have a tendency to play with one finger (index) for evenness of tone. My middle finger never sounds the same, although I'll use it if I need to.

[jakenewmanbass]

You guys are not alone in thinking that one finger sounds more consistent. I've heard that Marcus says the same thing and over on the Alembic forum I've seen a thread with Jimmy Johnson saying the same for recording 8th note bass parts, he cites Jamerson as a light in this.
I also do the one finger thing especially on upright.

Edited November 30, 2009 by jakesbass

[TheButler]

I got taught originally to use one finger; i learnt bass guitar from a cellist/double bass player. Then i just started using two fingers myself, without being prompted, because for some applications i couldn't effectively use one finger. My tutor was pleased to see initiative and said that as long as i kept it consistent then there was no reason not. I now usually use I-M-R all the time, but it has taken me the past year to make it sound as consistent as using my index finger on its own. Interesting all the same..

[Marvin]

I'm in a no man's land with regard to technique at the moment.
When I was younger, late teens, I used to play with a pick. No I've picked (not an intentional pun) up the bass after a +15 yr gap I can't for the life of me play with a pick - generally I have problems muting and hence create an awful noise.
However, I really struggle getting used to using my fingers - only 2 at most index and middle. I have difficulty getting a good disciplined technique crossing strings. For example on the Brand New Heavies track Spend Some Time, in the chorus there is a run that goes across all 4 strings. Played cleanly it sounds brilliant but simple. I just get my fingers knotted up.
I'm putting in down to beginners problems and will come with practice. Fingers crossed - perhaps not that's my problem.

[velvetkevorkian]

The best thing I've found for getting fingers in the right order is to number them (I.E. index finger=1, middle finger=2) and then say the numbers out loud as you play the lick. It makes you feel like a tit but it does work!

[Alun]

[quote name='Marvin' post='671466' date='Dec 1 2009, 07:37 PM']I'm in a no man's land with regard to technique at the moment.
When I was younger, late teens, I used to play with a pick. No I've picked (not an intentional pun) up the bass after a +15 yr gap I can't for the life of me play with a pick - generally I have problems muting and hence create an awful noise.
However, I really struggle getting used to using my fingers - only 2 at most index and middle. I have difficulty getting a good disciplined technique crossing strings. For example on the Brand New Heavies track Spend Some Time, in the chorus there is a run that goes across all 4 strings. Played cleanly it sounds brilliant but simple. I just get my fingers knotted up.
I'm putting in down to beginners problems and will come with practice. Fingers crossed - perhaps not that's my problem.[/quote]


String crossing is one of the trickiest things to do on bass IMO. I would suggest the folowing exercise:

1, play 2 notes one each string ( doesn't matter what notes really, this is aimed purely at the picking side of things), making sure you strictly alternate. First do it with index then middle, and then reverse it so you'e playing middle then index. Slowly go from the E string to a, then, D then G, and back down again. Don't worry about speed, just aim for accuracy and keep the fingers alternating.

Once that starts to feel comfortable...

2, same as above but with 3 notes per string but still alternating so the E string will be index, middle, index , the A string will be middle, index, middle, etc. Again, reverse it as well so you start with the "other" finger

The reason I suggest making sure you can start with either finger is that most players will feel more comfortable starting with one or the other ( I certainly do) and may stumble if they have to start a pattern with the other one ( again, it definitely happens to me which is why I started doing this exercise)

Finally, try one note per string. I say to do this last as I find it the trickiest of the lot.

Hope that helps!

Cheers
Alun

PS You can also do all the above skipping strings once you're happy with the string crossing

[sdgrsr400]

The classical criterion for whether something is not "proper" is whether it leads to tension in either hand. If there is tension, then there almost certainly be long-term problems (due to hand cramping and poor circulation).

I think we'd all agree that the best players have an "effortless" quality about their playing - so does your technique give you this? Could you do it all night without problems? If so, tell us all about it!

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Alun' post='671602' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:43 PM']String crossing is one of the trickiest things to do on bass IMO. I would suggest the folowing exercise:

1, play 2 notes one each string ( doesn't matter what notes really, this is aimed purely at the picking side of things), making sure you strictly alternate. First do it with index then middle, and then reverse it so you'e playing middle then index. Slowly go from the E string to a, then, D then G, and back down again. Don't worry about speed, just aim for accuracy and keep the fingers alternating.

Once that starts to feel comfortable...

2, same as above but with 3 notes per string but still alternating so the E string will be index, middle, index , the A string will be middle, index, middle, etc. Again, reverse it as well so you start with the "other" finger

The reason I suggest making sure you can start with either finger is that most players will feel more comfortable starting with one or the other ( I certainly do) and may stumble if they have to start a pattern with the other one ( again, it definitely happens to me which is why I started doing this exercise)

Finally, try one note per string. I say to do this last as I find it the trickiest of the lot.

Hope that helps!

Cheers
Alun

PS You can also do all the above skipping strings once you're happy with the string crossing [/quote]

I just tried that, half way through I realised that whilst I knew what note I was playing, I had no idea which finger was playing it. Thanks for making me aware of that - something to keep me busy practicing over Christmas!

[EssentialTension]

I remember seeing an interview with Jaco where he says strict index-middle-index-middle plucking is the hardest thing you'll ever have to learn on bass.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Alun' post='671602' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:43 PM']String crossing is one of the trickiest things to do on bass IMO. I would suggest the folowing exercise:

1, play 2 notes one each string ( doesn't matter what notes really, this is aimed purely at the picking side of things), making sure you strictly alternate. First do it with index then middle, and then reverse it so you'e playing middle then index. Slowly go from the E string to a, then, D then G, and back down again. Don't worry about speed, just aim for accuracy and keep the fingers alternating.

Once that starts to feel comfortable...

2, same as above but with 3 notes per string but still alternating so the E string will be index, middle, index , the A string will be middle, index, middle, etc. Again, reverse it as well so you start with the "other" finger

The reason I suggest making sure you can start with either finger is that most players will feel more comfortable starting with one or the other ( I certainly do) and may stumble if they have to start a pattern with the other one ( again, it definitely happens to me which is why I started doing this exercise)

Finally, try one note per string. I say to do this last as I find it the trickiest of the lot.

Hope that helps!

Cheers
Alun

PS You can also do all the above skipping strings once you're happy with the string crossing [/quote]
That certainly will help, Many thanks.

[mcgraham]

Good post! The point about getting good starting on each finger also resonates with me. Neglecting this can often lead to a playing weakness, if a player can't play certain things if it's not starting on a particular finger.

The same can also be said for using a pick. Make sure you are equally confident starting with an upstroke as well as a downstroke.

Mark

[Marvin]

I think for me, my aim should be to develop a consistent technique.
For example, practising crossing strings, consistent tone and consistent pressure with my fretting hand.
In the last 4 months I have probably learnt vastly more than in the 4 years when I was playing in my late teens. And as such can see why what is regarded as standard technique is seen as best practice. However, I can also see that players will always find techniques that are not seen as standard that work well for them.