Sensing imminent conflict

[Stylon Pilson]

I sense that there might be a conflict this evening. I'll try to condense the story down as much as possible.

The first thing that you should know about my band leader is that he likes to take any gig that is offered. The second thing you should know about my band, in general, is that the drummer and guitarist are both guys with a lot of other commitments, so often the band leader likes to book low-key acoustic gigs for the rest of the band (me, a violinist, and him on mandolin and guitar (though not simultaneously)). As a general rule, I don't get very enthusiastic about these, but I am reluctant to tell him to stop considering me for them, just in case one day there is a diamond in the rough.

So last Tuesday he sent an email to me and the violinist proposing one of these low-key things in February (unpaid). I said that I could make the date, but I was concerned about whether we've got the repertoire to fill a 2 hour slot. His reply used the words "relaxed" and "informal" repeatedly and the line "There might only be five people there!"

My reply was "Is this a good thing? Seriously, what sized audience are you anticipating? Or, if you don't know what sized audience to anticipate, what sized audience would you like to get, in an ideal world?"

I haven't had a reply to this, but this afternoon he sent an email out listing gigs that he has in mind for 2010, and the February date is there as having been confirmed with the venue. I've emailed him saying that my previous email on the subject was not rhetorical, and I was hoping we'd discuss it before confirming the date.

It's one thing when you do a gig and only 5 people turn up, but if we're actually [i]hoping[/i] for just 5, then that's... just wrong.

The matter will be discussed at this evening's rehearsal. The problem is that ever since I joined this band, I've been umming and ahhing over whether to stay or not. In recent months it's been getting worse, and I'm worried that I've got a lot of pent-up aggression over this. I've been rehearsing with another band for the last few months, but no gigs are booked yet, and my gut instinct is that it will fizzle out before it gets to that stage.

My list of reasons to leave is frankly quite huge. My list of reasons to stay is that I like being in a gigging band. The obvious solution is "leave, and find another band" I guess, but I was really hoping to have something lined up before cutting the cord.

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[Moos3h]

I think I'd stick with it, invest only the bare minimum and actively look for something else. Be up front about it, too, citing the reasons it's not working for you.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Moos3h' post='670100' date='Nov 30 2009, 03:58 PM']I think I'd stick with it, invest only the bare minimum and actively look for something else. Be up front about it, too, citing the reasons it's not working for you.[/quote]

I suppose a bit more honesty on my part could be beneficial. If I let him know that I'm interested in the full band, but not in the stripped-down 3-piece, then he might take that on board. I could probably live with that. But still, looking at my list of 15 reasons to go, it would only address 3 of them, at most.

S.P.

[OldGit]

Playing to 5 people for free? That would get me upset too.
How does that help you achieve you band objectives? If the 5 people are the top 5 A&R managers in the UK, a gig bookers convention dinner, the Radio One/two/three/6 music play list committee then maybe .. but I doubt it

You need to have a band meeting and give the guy some parameters so he knows what gigs he will be able to get a band for and which ones he should decline.

I book our bands gigs and that's what we did, eventually, after a few awkward moments. It makes it a lot easier for me.

I can tell straight away if the gig is the sort of thing that I may want to do but the others won't. Once a gig has passed these initial filters I still check each one with them (and anyone can say no with no questions asked) but it does filter out quite a few of the unsuitible gigs so usually the band only turn things down if they can't make the date.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='OldGit' post='670112' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:13 PM']How does that help you achieve you band objectives?[/quote]

Heh, I've just come up with a 16th reason - band objectives are ill-defined or non-existent.

But yes, you're right. I should just tell him "I don't want to play for free to 5 people." And if that's a deal-breaker for him, then he can find a bass player who will.

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670115' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:15 PM']Heh, I've just come up with a 16th reason - band objectives are ill-defined or non-existent.

But yes, you're right. I should just tell him "I don't want to play for free to 5 people." And if that's a deal-breaker for him, then he can find a bass player who will.

S.P.[/quote]


Way back when, we used to play charity gigs for free. Then my drummer got made redundant (for the first of - so far - 3 times) and he was getting a bit tetchy about it. In the end I asked him what he problem was and he said "It's cost me £25 to play this free gig what with petrol, drum spares, rehearsal costs etc. Next time why don't we just give the good cause £20 each and let then get someone else in for free?"
He had a point.
Now we always get paid something for charity gigs. It's a reduced fee and we make sure the organisation knows that, but we cover our costs, at least. We also have an agreed list of "charities and good causes" we don't play cheap gigs for, that includes private schools and political organisations of any shade.

[Stylon Pilson]

It's a slightly different story, in that for your band, the norm is to get paid. For "my" band, paid gigs are the exception rather than the rule.

A problem I have is that I sense I'm being seen as the troublemaker in the band. Everyone else goes along with whatever the band leader says (obviously it's easy for the guitarist and drummer, as he only ever offers them the premium stuff, but the violinist is strangely complicit) and I'm the high-maintenance one who says [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=34131"]No[/url] and [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=61823"]No[/url].

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[JTUK]

agree with most of the points on here...

The one thing you need to do is make your feelings known. The singer might be taking the pee, oblivious, doing it for another reason..all of which is up to him,
but he needs to know, or be told, what the rest of you think. If these things aren't addressed, underlying resentment will finish you off anyway..

Best be straight, and tell him/them that some things are concerning you..they then have a chance to address it, or not, and then you'll know.
But if somethings aren't salvageable, then give them as much notice as you can or want to,
There is no point doing it just because it is the best you have atm... IMO.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670146' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:44 PM']It's a slightly different story, in that for your band, the norm is to get paid. For "my" band, paid gigs are the exception rather than the rule.

A problem I have is that I sense I'm being seen as the troublemaker in the band. Everyone else goes along with whatever the band leader says (obviously it's easy for the guitarist and drummer, as he only ever offers them the premium stuff, but the violinist is strangely complicit) and I'm the high-maintenance one who says [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=34131"]No[/url] and [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=61823"]No[/url].

S.P.[/quote]


Sure.., We do generally get paid (not always) but there are several other parameters totally unrelated to money. Having an audience is one
Anyway it's ag eneric point about helping yoru booking person get gigs you all want to do, or at least don't mind doing.

If half your band aready only play some of the gigs, why not play in both bands? If you current band can get a dep player in then they will be Ok when you can't make a gig they all want to do.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='JTUK' post='670152' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:48 PM']The one thing you need to do is make your feelings known. The singer might be taking the pee, oblivious, doing it for another reason..all of which is up to him,
but he needs to know, or be told, what the rest of you think. If these things aren't addressed, underlying resentment will finish you off anyway..[/quote]

The band leader has more emotionally invested in this band than I do. He's also slightly naive - as I said before, he'll accept any gig that's offered. To him, any exposure is better than no exposure, even if that means playing for 2 hours to 5 people who aren't even listening to us. To him, it's a viable prospect. To me, it's a potential nightmare. What happens if those 5 people get bored after the first hour and a half and leave? I've already expressed to him my concerns that we haven't got the repertoire as a 3-piece to fill 2 hours. His response was basically to bury his head in the sand.

Incidentally, reason #10 on the list, for those who are keeping track at home, is that he doesn't listen when I try to steer him away from really bad ideas.

But as you say, I've got to come clean or quit. Building up all this resentment is not good for my soul.

S.P.

[farmer61]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670115' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:15 PM']Heh, I've just come up with a 16th reason - band objectives are ill-defined or non-existent.

But yes, you're right. I should just tell him "I don't want to play for free to 5 people." And if that's a deal-breaker for him, then he can find a bass player who will.

S.P.[/quote]

If you're spending time drawing up lists with 16??? reasons for leaving, you should have left a while ago!

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='OldGit' post='670157' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:54 PM']If half your band aready only play some of the gigs, why not play in both bands? If you current band can get a dep player in then they will be Ok when you can't make a gig they all want to do.[/quote]

Sorry, I think I've failed to avoid confusion. The band in question has a 3-piece core (me, violin, BL) and a 5-piece full lineup (+guitarist+drummer). I enjoy playing with the full lineup, but not with the core.

There was also another band that I mentioned in the penultimate paragraph of my original post, but that's moot, for the purposes of this discussion, because they aren't gigging yet, and possibly never will be.

S.P.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='farmer61' post='670161' date='Nov 30 2009, 04:59 PM']If you're spending time drawing up lists with 16??? reasons for leaving, you should have left a while ago![/quote]

I know. But Moos3h sums up my sentiments pretty well:

[quote name='Moos3h' post='670100' date='Nov 30 2009, 03:58 PM']I think I'd stick with it, invest only the bare minimum and actively look for something else. Be up front about it, too, citing the reasons it's not working for you.[/quote]

So I'm just trying to find a way of keeping it bearable in the meantime.

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[bassbloke]

If you really don't like the band, then move on. there's nothing more miserable than being in a band you don't like. But, if you do enjoy the band but don;t like being part of the trio that does every gig they're offered, then why don't you just join the drummer and guitarist in only participating in shows featuring the full line up?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670163' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:00 PM']Sorry, I think I've failed to avoid confusion. The band in question has a 3-piece core (me, violin, BL) and a 5-piece full lineup (+guitarist+drummer). I enjoy playing with the full lineup, but not with the core.

There was also another band that I mentioned in the penultimate paragraph of my original post, but that's moot, for the purposes of this discussion, because they aren't gigging yet, and possibly never will be.

S.P.[/quote]


Ah Ok


Well it does sound like you and he have diverged in your paths somewhat...

[JTUK]

I think you know what you'll do..and best of luck with that..

But the first question I ask about a new gig is how much..? it isn't because I need the money so much as it puts a value on things and focuses people minds.
The venue has to think through having bands on...and whether they can afford it. Too many round here of late are having open mics..which is not a sustainable thing IMV...
and also, acts have to be worth what they are charging, by and large.

If you use the example above about the drummer who paid to do gigs...then that way, your time is costed for a really dross gig..and it is a bonus if it is a stormer...
Basically your time is money, IMV..

No pub or club owner would work for nothing...why should anyone else..?

If there is nothing in it but a waste of time, then....?????

If your singer/booker doesn't get this, then he can do the gig solo......???

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='bassbloke' post='670167' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:08 PM']But, if you do enjoy the band but don;t like being part of the trio that does every gig they're offered, then why don't you just join the drummer and guitarist in only participating in shows featuring the full line up?[/quote]

I think that's the way it will pan out. As I said in my original post, I've been reluctant to make such a flat-out statement, because I'd prefer to judge each opportunity on its own merits, but I guess that the time has come to set some parameters that are easy for the band leader to comprehend.

Still, there's more to it than that - even if the full band was invited to do 2 hours for an audience of 5, I wouldn't want to do it. Maybe I need to draw up a list of criteria and a scoring mechanism that I can present to him.

[quote name='OldGit' post='670168' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:10 PM']Well it does sound like you and he have diverged in your paths somewhat...[/quote]

Yes, and I suppose it's my own fault for not being clearer about what I am and am not willing to do. That said, I feel like if he's been paying attention, then there should have been enough clues for him to figure out my tendencies, but I guess not.

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[Protium]

I had a similar situation with my old band. I really enjoyed the music but it was the same gig in the same venue every week. Playing to a sh*t crowd, sh*t soundguy, sh*t bands always asking to use your gear, "paid" in drinks which the singer either drank himself or gave away to whatever girl happened to be in the vicinity. In the end I just had no motivation to play with them, turn up for practice, bother to hang around after we'd performed so called it a day...

[OldGit]

It's interesting that there are no agreed or understood band objectives.
I do something like this rather a lot with clients, usually asking the question gets a "well we've never really thought about it" reply and starts teh thinking and defining process.

In you case yer man thinks that playing gigs is good for the band but hasn't communicated to you how gigs like this actually progress things for you.

If you can determine the band objectives then you have a better chance of working out the best way to achieve them.

Do you get any gigs in? If you don't then you may have less leverage in the types that are accepted, in my book anyway.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='JTUK' post='670172' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:13 PM']If there is nothing in it but a waste of time, then....?????[/quote]

I don't want to give him the impression that I'm only in this for the money, because I'm not. It's never unwelcome, of course, but as a general rule, I'm willing to do a gig out-of-pocket if I'm going to have a good time. And if my instincts tell me that it's not going to be a fun gig for me, then I'll trust them.

The whole debate about "bands shouldn't play for free because it devalues the art" is one that I fundamentally agree with you on, but I'd prefer not to take this thread into that particular direction, because it's already covered under reasons 2, 3, 4, 5, 12, 13, 14 and 15 on the list.

S.P.

[Kiwi]

Sounds all too similar to the situation with my last band. We were turned into a gigging machine and it was doing my head in.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='OldGit' post='670188' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:24 PM']It's interesting that there are no agreed or understood band objectives.
I do something like this rather a lot with clients, usually asking the question gets a "well we've never really thought about it" reply and starts teh thinking and defining process.

In you case yer man thinks that playing gigs is good for the band but hasn't communicated to you how gigs like this actually progress things for you.

If you can determine the band objectives then you have a better chance of working out the best way to achieve them.

Do you get any gigs in? If you don't then you may have less leverage in the types that are accepted, in my book anyway.[/quote]

I acknowledge what you're saying, but the band's structure is pretty much a dictatorship. BL is always telling us that it isn't, and invites contribution, but whenever I've offered anything that contradicts what he believes, the response is always an "interesting, I'll think about it" leading to an inevitable "no" (this is reason #10 on the list). I feel like booking gigs (or asking him to formalise a band objective) would be outside of my remit. He'd hate it. I dunno, maybe he wouldn't. Maybe I'm actually just ashamed of this band and feel like if I approached a promoter, some anti-lying part of me would suddenly flare into life and admit just how bad I think we are.

Whoops, did I type that out loud?

S.P.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Stylon Pilson

[Stylon Pilson]

Nearly time for me to go offline. Thanks for all the responses. Fingers crossed.

S.P.

[JTUK]

agree it isn't always about the money.. I can be bought off with a great gig and kudos, being very well looked after or whatever appeals, but I don't turn up just because it suits someone else.

It has to work for you on some level.

Sometimes a heart felt clear-the-air sessions gets things back on track.. but I do think 16 reasons and counting is quite a position to rescue...

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670210' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:40 PM']I acknowledge what you're saying, but the band's structure is pretty much a dictatorship. BL is always telling us that it isn't, and invites contribution, but whenever I've offered anything that contradicts what he believes, the response is always an "interesting, I'll think about it" leading to an inevitable "no" (this is reason #10 on the list). I feel like booking gigs (or asking him to formalise a band objective) would be outside of my remit. He'd hate it. I dunno, maybe he wouldn't. Maybe I'm actually just ashamed of this band and feel like if I approached a promoter, some anti-lying part of me would suddenly flare into life and admit just how bad I think we are.

Whoops, did I type that out loud?

S.P.[/quote]


Ah Ok

Some bands work great like that because some players really don't want to be fussed with all the objectives, decision making etc stuff and really, as long as they are playing out rather than sitting at home, they are happy.
that's their objective and they are happy to let someone else do the leg work to let them achieve it.
if the band is like that then it will just bump along the bottom going nowhere much...

You (and I) are not like that.

Time to move on before the resentment gets too much.


So, how did it go tonight?

Edited November 30, 2009 by OldGit