Sensing imminent conflict

[maxrossell]

Seems fairly clear to me.

Playing gigs for fun instead of money gives you the luxury of picking and choosing the gigs you want to play, because there's no point in doing a sh*t gig if you're not even getting cash for it.

The fact that your band leader still takes any toilet gig he's offered, to the extent that he'll do it with half the band if he has to, indicates that he's sort of missed the above point.

You mentioned fifteen other reasons for wanting to leave the band, but frankly the one above would be enough for me.

[MB1]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='670591' date='Nov 30 2009, 11:40 PM']Seems fairly clear to me.

Playing gigs for fun instead of money gives you the luxury of picking and choosing the gigs you want to play, because there's no point in doing a sh*t gig if you're not even getting cash for it.

The fact that your band leader still takes any toilet gig he's offered, to the extent that he'll do it with half the band if he has to, indicates that he's sort of missed the above point.

You mentioned fifteen other reasons for wanting to leave the band, but frankly the one above would be enough for me.[/quote]

MB1.
I know a drummer who had the same problem...traveling miles to play to no more than 5 people!...the worst thing about this was 3 of them were the Barstaff!...i kid you not!

[thepurpleblob]

I've been in a vaguely similar situation. You rarely have so much to loose that you can't lay down the line. Mine was, "you have to check with me before confirming a gig. If you don't, then I'm not available". Don't be vague and don't be wishy-washy. If something is not acceptable to you, say so. You'll feel better

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='OldGit' post='670582' date='Nov 30 2009, 11:34 PM']So, how did it go tonight?[/quote]

No huge conflict, but not really satisfying either. We're not doing the February gig. He's asked me to reconsider, and I've told him that unless some new information comes to light, my decision isn't going to change.

I didn't get around to raising any of the bigger issues, like the band's objectives or my lack of willingness to perform as a 3-piece. The atmosphere didn't feel right - I think it's something that would be better initiated with him as a one-on-one thing, instead of chewing into everyone's rehearsal time.

S.P.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670795' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:47 AM']No huge conflict, but not really satisfying either. We're not doing the February gig. He's asked me to reconsider, and I've told him that unless some new information comes to light, my decision isn't going to change.

I didn't get around to raising any of the bigger issues, like the band's objectives or my lack of willingness to perform as a 3-piece. The atmosphere didn't feel right - I think it's something that would be better initiated with him as a one-on-one thing, instead of chewing into everyone's rehearsal time.

S.P.[/quote]


Sounds wise.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='670788' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:41 AM']I've been in a vaguely similar situation. You rarely have so much to loose that you can't lay down the line. Mine was, "you have to check with me before confirming a gig. If you don't, then I'm not available". Don't be vague and don't be wishy-washy. If something is not acceptable to you, say so. You'll feel better [/quote]

Yes, I did feel better for making my feelings clear on this. Though I did feel a bit bad for being the one who let the side down. The overall result was "we can't do this gig because SP doesn't want to" whereas I would have preferred it to have been "we can't do this gig because SP makes a compelling argument why we should not." Not for want of trying.

S.P.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670800' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:50 AM']Yes, I did feel better for making my feelings clear on this. Though I did feel a bit bad for being the one who let the side down. The overall result was "we can't do this gig because SP doesn't want to" whereas I would have preferred it to have been "we can't do this gig because SP makes a compelling argument why we should not." Not for want of trying.

S.P.[/quote]


More a case of "We can't do this gig becase the band leader hasn't got a workable system for ensuring he has a band before taking the date"
It's important that your band mates know the true reason for the gig not going on.

I was very early into discussions with a guy this year about doing some blues stuff. Third phone call he said "can you play a gig this Saturday?" he then got all "you are letting me down" about me preferring to spend my wedding anniversary with my wife rather than playing some random no notice pub blues gig.
Twonk.. It didn't get any better and, needless to say, I didn't join his band.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670800' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:50 AM']Yes, I did feel better for making my feelings clear on this. Though I did feel a bit bad for being the one who let the side down. The overall result was "we can't do this gig because SP doesn't want to" whereas I would have preferred it to have been "we can't do this gig because SP makes a compelling argument why we should not." Not for want of trying.

S.P.[/quote]

But the end result is that you'll be sat in your house with a beer watching X-factor and not getting really stressed out playing a gig you don't want to do to five people who don't care. Honestly, sometimes you just have to be that bastard who wants it his own way. Saying 'yes' to everything results in counselling sessions for anxiety (for real in my case). Learn to say 'no' and not care

[AM1]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670180' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:17 PM']I think that's the way it will pan out. As I said in my original post, I've been reluctant to make such a flat-out statement, because I'd prefer to judge each opportunity on its own merits, but I guess that the time has come to set some parameters that are easy for the band leader to comprehend.[/quote]

The other members of the band that have declined to play with the trio have set clear parameters and as a result there is no ambiguity over their intentions.

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670180' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:17 PM']Still, there's more to it than that - even if the full band was invited to do 2 hours for an audience of 5, I wouldn't want to do it. Maybe I need to draw up a list of criteria and a scoring mechanism that I can present to him.[/quote]

If the band leader is lining up gigs like this then clearly he will accept any gig.

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670180' date='Nov 30 2009, 05:17 PM']Yes, and I suppose it's my own fault for not being clearer about what I am and am not willing to do. That said, I feel like if he's been paying attention, then there should have been enough clues for him to figure out my tendencies, but I guess not.[/quote]

He doesn't sound like the kind of person who takes subtle clues into consideration. If you accept his 5 punter gigs grudgingly but then let the resentment build and are trying to convey subtle clues, he is presented with a lot of ambiguity and passive aggressive type responses. If he doesn't hear firm statements and firm NOs, he'll interpret your mixed messages as a go ahead.

The main problems is that because your approach is that you want to take every case on its own merits, he interprets that as you'll do any gig, unless you are actually unable to make that date. The others have stated their clear rules and therefore he doesn't approach them on a case by case basis. He does not sound like he can operate effectively in the face of ambiguity and your subtle clues therefore won't work.

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670800' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:50 AM']Yes, I did feel better for making my feelings clear on this. Though I did feel a bit bad for being the one who let the side down. The overall result was "we can't do this gig because SP doesn't want to" whereas I would have preferred it to have been "we can't do this gig because SP makes a compelling argument why we should not." Not for want of trying.[/quote]

But it's already abundantly clear that he'll accept pretty much any gig, so for him, there will never be a compelling argument why you should not do a gig. The rest of the band probably feel the same about these one horse town gigs but won't speak up. The reason for that is of course a function of the band leader's manipulative behaviour, i.e. refusing to see basic common sense and instead positioning it as the band "having to" turn down gigs because of SP.

It sounds like there are some powerful mind games going on there because you're being positioned as the one that's stopping the band from accepting a gig, when the reality is, that it is of no benefit for the band collectively to do the gig. Pitting you against your peers in the band in this manner is complicitly putting pressure on you to do things you don't want to do. The reasonable response would be for him to recognise that you have a point and playing to 5 punters, 3 of them bar staff, is clearly not feasible and drop that gig. The unreasonable response is to position it to the band that they are losing a gig because of you.

The others have had no problem saying they won't play certain stuff, yet the band leader will still go and play as a trio, without the full band. That is because the trio are enabling him to do this. If the others can turn down gigs and feel no guilt or peer pressure or manipulation, why can't you?

So, dump the passive aggressive stuff, state clearly to him that a 5 punter gig is fundamentally unconstructive for the band in your view and for this reason you won't consider those gigs and won't do such gigs either as a full band or a trio. If he again positions you to the band as turning down gigs because of you, put it to him and/or indeed, the rest of the band to advance a compelling argument why the band SHOULD accept such gigs.

Once the matter is floated to the full band, you may find that others will speak up and agree with you, they simply don't want to be seen as the initial "dissenter".

It's better to nail your colours to the mast and push the responsibility back to him, to give you a good enough reason to change your mind. If he wants to play band leader, the onus is upon him to assist your understanding of what benefits a 5 punter gig will afford the band, not on you, to accept every toilet gig going, simply because he is putting his personal agenda ahead of the bands'.

For you, analysing why you have difficulty in saying a straight and direct NO, irrespective of the potential consequences and/or resulting subtle manipulation, is at the heart of this.

Edited December 1, 2009 by AM1

[MB1]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670800' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:50 AM']Yes, I did feel better for making my feelings clear on this. Though I did feel a bit bad for being the one who let the side down. The overall result was "we can't do this gig because SP doesn't want to" whereas I would have preferred it to have been "we can't do this gig because SP makes a compelling argument why we should not." Not for want of trying.

S.P.[/quote]

MB1.
If the singer had said that to me!..it would have been we cant do this gig because the singers wearing a Fender Jazz!..Cheeky Bastards making it out to be your fault youre not doing the poxy gig as well!...hes obviously not listening to you or anybody else!

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='AM1' post='670825' date='Dec 1 2009, 10:26 AM']If he again positions you to the band as turning down gigs because of you, put it to him and/or indeed, the rest of the band to advance a compelling argument why the band SHOULD accept such gigs.[/quote]

The problem is that his arguments are compelling to him, but not to me. He'll say that "it's about getting our name out there" or "the guy that's booking us is friends with so-and-so who runs the bar across the road and so if we do the crap gig then he'll put in a good word for us." Bear in mind that trying to change this guy's mind is like trying to push poo back up a cat's anus.

But I agree with your argument that subtlety has proven to be a failing tack, and it's time to be a bit more frank about my desires.

S.P.

[BigRedX]

The guitarist and singer for my originals band like to do these "unplugged" gigs.

I made it very clear when I joined that the reason I wanted to be in the band was because I liked the full-on rock with sequencers sound of the full band, and that I had zero interest in doing unplugged gigs as they were for bearded hippies who dress badly and smell. Besides "unplugged" IMO is a complete sham. Everything's mic'd up or electro-acoustic anyway. I might be persuaded if it was a true acoustic gig with no sound re-enforcement in use at all.

[MB1]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670876' date='Dec 1 2009, 11:19 AM']The problem is that his arguments are compelling to him, but not to me. He'll say that "it's about getting our name out there" or "the guy that's booking us is friends with so-and-so who runs the bar across the road and so if we do the crap gig then he'll put in a good word for us." Bear in mind that trying to change this guy's mind is like trying to push poo back up a cat's anus.

But I agree with your argument that subtlety has proven to be a failing tack, and it's time to be a bit more frank about my desires.

S.P.[/quote]

MB1.
...Perhaps they need a good talking to,if you dont mind me saying so?....Perhaps a bit more?,my girls sir, they didn't care for the Overlook at first, one of them actually stole a pack of matches and tried to burn it down....But i "Corrected" them Sir...and when my wife tried to prevent me from doing my duty...I "Corrected" her!
Delbert Grady (The Shining)

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='670795' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:47 AM']I didn't get around to raising any of the bigger issues, like the band's objectives or my lack of willingness to perform as a 3-piece. The atmosphere didn't feel right - I think it's something that would be better initiated with him as a one-on-one thing, instead of chewing into everyone's rehearsal time.[/quote]

Late to the thread, but I really don't think that's the way forward.

A relationship issue between you and the BL would probably best be dealt with over a quiet beer in the pub, just the two of you. I had to try that during the summer with my lead guitarist. (It didn't really work, but it showed the rest of the band that I was the one willing to talk and compromise, so it did me no harm at all.)

What you've been describing isn't a personal issue between you two guys - it's the entire structure and direction of a 5-piece band. Even if you could meet the BL privately and reach agreement as to the way forward, you have no way of enforcing this later if it's his word against yours as to what was agreed. And who gave the pair of you the right to determine the band's future anyway?

Far from this discussion [i]"chewing into everyone's rehearsal time"[/i], it's the single most constructive use of that time. Rather than rehearsing for no very good reason, why not focus one rehearsal on why you're doing it, and indeed whether or not you actually want to do it in future?

In your position, at the next rehearsal I'd simply refuse to take my bass out of its gigbag until I was satisfied that the subject had been properly discussed.

Just my tupp'orth.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='671006' date='Dec 1 2009, 01:12 PM']In your position, at the next rehearsal I'd simply refuse to take my bass out of its gigbag until I was satisfied that the subject had been properly discussed.[/quote]


Better to call it a meeting and not even take instruments.

[JTUK]

Forgive me for not reading the last few posts that well...
but I feel this is more complicated than it should be..

You tell him that you need to confirm a gig first before he assumes you will do it. The poster above was correct in that.
if you accept a gig and haven't asked the right questions, then you'll have to stand for that...

You may want to pick the right time and place but tell him exactly what the deal is as far as your wroking parameters go.
Keep a record of things for when they go tits up as he doesn't seem to have much of a handle on things anwyay..

He doesn't seem to assume the others will do gigs on his whim.. all you have done or will do is abide by the same..and you are on the point of leaving anyway, so if he doesn't get it, you aren't that bothered.