Tips for playing double bass in an orchestra.

[fatgoogle]

Hi

Ive got a place in the Wexford youth Orchestra and i was wondering if any of you had tips for playing as part of the string section.
What really worries me is that my teacher told me alot of time you can hear yourself playing, and just have to really on memory, and as my intonation isn't the best.. well. Im used to playing 1st trumpet in orchestra and have always been able to hear myself fine.

So any tips?

thanks
Sam H

[velvetkevorkian]

If you're used to playing trumpet then you shouldn't have any trouble- most important are the basic orchestra skills (IE watch the conductor, have a pencil, etc). The bass part is usually (but not always) doubling another part in the orchestra, often the cellos or the heavy brass, so know your cues in that respect in case you get lost. Hearing yourself shouldn't be that big a problem; if it is hang your head forward in front of the bass for a few seconds to check, or put an ear against the neck. Are you playing as part of a bass section or will you be the only bassist?

[sdgrsr400]

Surprising absence of input here given some very informed board members.

A couple of tips from a dabbler:

1. COUNT COUNT COUNT COUNT!!!

2. You don't have to play all the notes. By that I mean if a passage is technically too hard in the LH, do some "air bowing" to keep synchronized with the rest of the section. No-one will spot the difference and it's better than coming to a halt or making a hash of the notes.

Good luck!

[fatgoogle]

Thanks
Yes i will be the only double bass player in the orchestra. Also thanks for the tip of air bowing, ill remember that one. Also is it worthwhile getting a stool?

[velvetkevorkian]

Yes- a long orchestra rehearsal will seem even longer if you have to stand while the conductor goes over that tricky passage with the woodwind fourteen times! That said, a lot of rehearsal venues will have suitable stools available which should be no problem for you.

edit- do you know what pieces you're going to be playing?

Edited December 1, 2009 by velvetkevorkian

[fatgoogle]

No, ive only been once and that was just to say hello and not play, The conductor has posted me out the music and so im waiting for it to arrive. She said it wasn't anything very difficult.

Edited December 1, 2009 by fatgoogle

[fatgoogle]

Found out the pieces im learning, for 13th of feburary when i the orchestra has a concert.

Dance of the tumblers
Peer Gynt Suite no 1
Anitra Dance
Death of Ase
Hall of the mountain king
Slavonic dance no 8
Selections from harispray

[Gareth Hughes]

Tips are just practice as much as you can - I know that's obvious, but when it comes to following the conductor, following the music and remembering to breathe, it can make life a lot easier if you know the next four bars cold - or can see a tricky section coming up and not have to panic about it. Also, tricky passages can be navigated by doing a quick edit - get the starting note and the ending note right for starters. Then, say it's a bar of 16ths, try just playing the first note of every beat. Then the first and third note, so that way you're playing in time and hitting all the predominant beats. Obviously this would be sacrilege for an exposed bass part, but the majority of the time you'll be buried under everyone else. An orchestral bass player told me once to think of the bass as the rhythm of the orchestra, so it's about keeping the pulse moving, hence the first beat suggestion.

And yes, get a stool!!

[velvetkevorkian]

The Peer Gynt suites are fairly straightforward- been a few years since I played it but Hall of The Mountain King has a good bass melody- everything else is pretty much texture as far as I recall. I'm sure you'll have no problems.

[fatgoogle]

Well ive done the first rehearsal with them last friday and it was better then expected. I was playing sitting down which i think helped with hearing the double bass as it was touching more of me. I don't like classical pizz though. Is it acceptable to put your bow down and do more of a jazz pizz while doing a piece that is either all pizz or has a good long section of it.


Thanks
For all the advice, so far.

[velvetkevorkian]

That's usually fine, although obviously make sure you have enough time to pick the bow back up, and make sure the conductor doesn't mind. Just remember its a bit of a different sound you're usually going for as far as pizz goes in an orchestra, IME.

[Pete1967]

I'd agree with everything said above... especially that practise is the key. Parctice Practise Practice.

A tip to hear yourself, looks a bit odd, but reasonably easy to do if you really need to hear... press your left ear against the neck where it passes over your shoulder. You'll 'hear' the vibrations in your head...

Pizzicato without a bow... if you're CAREFUL, place the tip of the bow in the arch of the bridge so that it's wedged with the tip resting against the back of the left leg and the shaft against the top of the right leg. Just be careful 'cos you can take the bridge off if you're not! The other option is to grasp the frog of the bow with your last two fingers so that it's pointing towards the floor, leaving thumb and first two fingers free.

Have fun!

[velvetkevorkian]

The problem with putting the bow through the bridge legs is it can make an ungodly racket if you're not very careful- fine when you're changing between pieces but good for provoking the conductor's wrath if done in the middle of a piece! Also, I would worry about it rattling?

Pete1967, I take it you play German bow? If the OP is also playing German the last method you suggest is excellent (from what I've seen of other German bow players); if you're playing French bow though it doesn't really work, for me anyway- my fingers are too big to fit through the frog! Instead I just use the second and third fingers, without changing the bow position much- that works for all but the most frenetic pizz stuff IME.

Edited December 11, 2009 by velvetkevorkian

[fatgoogle]

Ya i play with a french bow, but maybe a i could get a make one of those little sack things i see some players use that hang from the bridge and can hold the bow. Ive found my biggest trouble so far is speed especially when bowing to actually make the notes clear but i suppose thats practise.

Thanks

[Pete1967]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='681683' date='Dec 11 2009, 08:30 PM']The problem with putting the bow through the bridge legs is it can make an ungodly racket if you're not very careful- fine when you're changing between pieces but good for provoking the conductor's wrath if done in the middle of a piece! Also, I would worry about it rattling?

Pete1967, I take it you play German bow? If the OP is also playing German the last method you suggest is excellent (from what I've seen of other German bow players); if you're playing French bow though it doesn't really work, for me anyway- my fingers are too big to fit through the frog! Instead I just use the second and third fingers, without changing the bow position much- that works for all but the most frenetic pizz stuff IME. [/quote]

Re the bridge 'technique'... yes true it's true it can be noisy... I once got a hell of a stare off Simon Rattle (no pun intended), so the key here is to be careful... once safely lodged though it's usually quite secure. Gravity is working for you.

I do now use a German bow - but I started with french bow and changed to German when I studied with Duncan McTier. The German technique is to slip your little finger into the U of the frog and grasp the shaft, and it's quite quick to do with a bit of practise, a bit like a wild west gunslinger. With the slimmer french frog you can grasp the whole frog, but I agree that it's more difficult.

[Pete1967]

[quote name='fatgoogle' post='681776' date='Dec 11 2009, 10:31 PM']Ya i play with a french bow, but maybe a i could get a make one of those little sack things i see some players use that hang from the bridge and can hold the bow. Ive found my biggest trouble so far is speed especially when bowing to actually make the notes clear but i suppose thats practise.

Thanks[/quote]

Yup.. practise the changes. The 'quiver' you refer to is popular with jazz players but a bone fide classical player wouldn't be seen dead with one.....

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Pete1967' post='681794' date='Dec 11 2009, 10:53 PM']The 'quiver' you refer to is popular with jazz players but a bone fide classical player wouldn't be seen dead with one.....[/quote]
Not true! Nearly all the bass players I work with (in one of the BBC orchestras) use a leather bow quiver, and I've seen them often when I have worked with other orchs.

Having said that, we usually only play pizz with "bows down" on long pizz sections like that bass bit in the New World symph (Dvorak), slow movement.

If there is any arco coming up that requires a swift change, we play the pizz notes with bow in hand, plucking with the middle finger, bow held upwards with thumb, pinky and index fingers.

There are many pieces where you are constantly changing from arco to pizz and its vital to get this technique sorted.

Lets be clear:
There is a distinct difference in sound when you play pizz with bow in hand, plucking just with the tip of the middle finger, as opposed to jazz style where more of the flesh works the string, producing a long sustained meaty and characterful note. Some Principal bass players will ask for a specific approach depending on context. For a lot of the more classical rep, the former approach is more in keeping with the style ie a shorter, less sustaining thuddy sound.

Another bow-in-hand approach is to pluck with middle AND ring finger - giving a thicker, louder sound - ideal for ff or louder.

I have quivers on both my basses and they are ideal for storing duster, rosin and tuner when the bass is not in use. I also have a little place on the quiver where I keep my trusty pencil, hooked through the retaining strap. Very handy !

Also the quiver is most useful when you need to put the bow down to write something in the part. I highly recommend getting one.

Have a look at:
[url="http://www.contrabass.co.uk/bowquivers.htm"]http://www.contrabass.co.uk/bowquivers.htm[/url]
Not the cheapest place to buy bass stuff, but it will give you an idea as to cost.

The Major

[fatgoogle]

Thanks Major minor, I was talking to my teacher about the classic Pizz and he told me its more for the sound then the notes in general.
Also both my parents were saddlers so i could get them to whip me up one if i show them the picture.

Also a question on my actual double bass while i have the thread open, the double bass i bought while i should never need to use it in the orchestra it has faults, such as no shallow in the fingerboard, needs a new bridge and nut and looks manky. I was wondering whether it is worth spending the 300 on getting fully working to a good standard or should i sell it on and get something better now that ive come into a bit more money.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='fatgoogle' post='684551' date='Dec 14 2009, 09:36 PM']Thanks Major minor, I was talking to my teacher about the classic Pizz and he told me its more for the sound then the notes in general.
Also both my parents were saddlers so i could get them to whip me up one if i show them the picture.

Also a question on my actual double bass while i have the thread open, the double bass i bought while i should never need to use it in the orchestra it has faults, such as no shallow in the fingerboard, needs a new bridge and nut and looks manky. I was wondering whether it is worth spending the 300 on getting fully working to a good standard or should i sell it on and get something better now that ive come into a bit more money.[/quote]
Its almost impossible to answer this without both seeing and hearing the bass you currently own. To be honest, £300 won't get you much in the way of improvements but it might be worth it to help get a better price if you decide to sell.
I suggest you try to find a bass dealer and play on a few other instruments to get a feel for what is available. You can then compare your existing bass with better quality instruments.

If you do decide to make improvements to your existing bass, I would recommend getting a new set of good quality strings. Its amazing what a difference strings can make (have a look at the Pirastro Evah Pirazzi ..... thread). But this will set you back £150 at least.

IMO the better quality bass you have, the quicker will be your progress. If you love the sound you are making, you will practice more. Conversely, if you are making a thin rough squeaky sound, you will end up wanting to throw it through the window !

The Major

[fatgoogle]

Im liking the sound of it yes, and ive barely made a squeaky sound while playing, but to play. When in the half and first position all the strings rattle, especially when playing jazz pizz. Also Unless in a small room the sound is small because ive been told someone cut the feet of the bridge.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='fatgoogle' post='685567' date='Dec 15 2009, 06:52 PM']When in the half and first position all the strings rattle, especially when playing jazz pizz. Also Unless in a small room the sound is small because ive been told someone cut the feet of the bridge.[/quote]
If your strings are rattling, then you almost certainly need to get a new bridge fitted, and maybe also a new nut. There should be no hint of a rattle for most dynamic levels. However, most of us can cause rattling when we really lay deep into the string. But extraneous noises are to be avoided if at all possible.

The Major