Why is C the 'first' note of the scale?

[thisnameistaken]

This feels like a really silly question but I genuinely don't get it. If you're going to name the notes after letters of the alphabet, why would C be first?

Or does all this relate to some other alphabet?

[nig]

C is only the first note of the C scale, on a piano the white notes, all tones or whole notes, no sharps or flats. thats all...I think. A could be first if you work from A.

[maxrossell]

Yeah, I think C is only first from the Do Re Mi etc perspective.

[wulf]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='679831' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:19 AM']This feels like a really silly question but I genuinely don't get it. If you're going to name the notes after letters of the alphabet, why would C be first?[/quote]
I suspect that the reason the majority of music teaching starts with C is that this it is the root of the only major key with no sharps or flats. What that doesn't answer is why C got picked for this honour. For western alphabets, you would have thought A would be a more obvious choice but don't think about that too hard or you'll forget the accidentals when starting there and sound like a minor.

Wulf

[Bilbo]

Its arbitrary. The note is 'first' because the key is routinely taught first because it has no sharps or flats i.e. the major scale is made up of the white notes on a piano. Its the easiest to read if you are learning to read music as it has no key signature (as does its relative minor, A). Otherwise its cyclical; there is no 'first'. I suspect that, historically, it all 'starts' with A minor rather than C? Lefty may know - its all Greek to him....

[purpleblob]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='679831' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:19 AM']This feels like a really silly question but I genuinely don't get it. If you're going to name the notes after letters of the alphabet, why would C be first?

Or does all this relate to some other alphabet?[/quote]

I have to say that's a damn good question ! In terms of the C scale as has already been stated, it has no sharps/flats to is conceptually simpler to begin with but why on earth was it named C. Time to google for the answer...

[Sibob]

Lowest note on a Piano is A
C is in the middle, so often a good place to start!?

Probably coincidental, but I like it

Si

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Sibob' post='680061' date='Dec 10 2009, 11:31 AM']Lowest note on a Piano is A
C is in the middle, so often a good place to start!?

Probably coincidental, but I like it

Si[/quote]

Yeah I was wondering about that - maybe somebody just said this is a convenient hand position on a piano.

[essexbasscat]

oh yes, like this one. would like to hear from the major too.

As for a question being silly, I may not speak for everyone, but to me, if it aids understanding, any question is a good one

that 'C' in the middle of the piano is predictably called 'middle C'.

the sharp / flat line of reasoning works for me. probably goes back to the question of learning about the rudiments of music from the least complicated beginnings, which might be;

- start off learning where notes are positioned on the stave to the point that you can recognise them at a glance, or without stopping. no sharps. no flats. which puts you straight away in the key of c major

- learn how the 'C' major scale is contructed on the piano keyboard i.e. all the white notes. then learn how the 'A' minor scale is constructed, again, all white notes.

introduce the concept of sharps / flats. progress to constructing keys in other scales i.e. here's the black notes


this may start off another session, but it is one possible answer of many, I'm sure

look forward to hearing more

[Al Heeley]

Please bear in mind the musical scale was around in one form or another long before the piano was invented. This brings up the question - whiat was the first instrument? Maybe it followed on from a string or wind instrument where C was seen as the normal start point, and the piano keys fell in later?

Also, why is it that all the brass sections have to muck about in Bb tuning while the piano is easiest in C? What was the reason for this? Makes all life harder when piano and brass (or woodwind) play together, also for guitar, Bb is a foul key to play in unless you're having to accompany a wind section. Wonder what the cause of this disparity goes back to??

[essexbasscat]

good 'un Al Heeley !

the piano was the successor to the harpsichord I think (if that's wrong - please someone say so) around the 1700's or so.

The harpsichord wasn't tuned in 'even' intervals, which made it sound out of tune when played in certain keys ( the same way that if you tune a guitar to sound really nice in one key, it may sound not quite right in others). The answer to this awkwardness with changing keys was to invent an instrument tuned in 'even' intervals - the piano.

Can't remember the answer about the Bb trumpet tuning, Eb and Bb saxophone tuning also. S'pose I should really, as I began playing music on the trumpet and still use it and a sax too. My heart and soul are with the Bass though.

this line is intriguing

[MacDaddy]

middle C is the note between the bass and treble clef staves.

[essexbasscat]

Cor !

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='680150' date='Dec 10 2009, 12:39 PM']Please bear in mind the musical scale was around in one form or another long before the piano was invented. This brings up the question - whiat was the first instrument? Maybe it followed on from a string or wind instrument where C was seen as the normal start point, and the piano keys fell in later?[/quote]

Damn you, a great theory blown out of the water Very good point though

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='680183' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:02 PM']good 'un Al Heeley !

the piano was the successor to the harpsichord I think (if that's wrong - please someone say so) around the 1700's or so.

The harpsichord wasn't tuned in 'even' intervals, which made it sound out of tune when played in certain keys ( the same way that if you tune a guitar to sound really nice in one key, it may sound not quite right in others). The answer to this awkwardness with changing keys was to invent an instrument tuned in 'even' intervals - the piano.[/quote]

Not quite, 'well tempered tuning' was used on the harpsichord and clavier before the piano, hence Bach's compostion 'the well tempered clavier' in which the same instrument - his clavier - played pieces that go through all keys.

[essexbasscat]

Thank you MacDaddy

Do you know which instrument was the forerunner of well - tempered tuning ? I really did think the piano was involved in it somewhere, as I remember a seires of programmes about the history of music and the claim that the piano solved a number of problems around this issue. (doh -don't beleive what you see on t.v.)

or is it alzheimer's creeping up on me again ?

[Bilbo]

I am trying to look this up (saddo that I am) and can't find a definitive answer but it appears that it evolved rather than happened. Early instruments appear to have been variable in pitch but a common phenomenon appears to have been pentatonics (a Chinese discovery originally). Early keyboards would have had all white notes but, as musicians 'discovered' other notes, they added them one at a time calling them sharps or flats etc. Tempered scales came later but I guess noone woke up one day and said 'lets call this easy one C' but it evolved over centuries and across continents to what we call the tempered scale today. All of this is a Western phenomenon and other culltures have different notes/scales etc.

In short, it was unintentional.

[chrisba]

[quote]Also, why is it that all the brass sections have to muck about in Bb tuning while the piano is easiest in C?[/quote]

Originally, there was a C trumpet ( you can still buy them ), but somebody made a longer one, and thought it sounded nicer. So that this longer one could use the same fingering as the shorter one, all their music was transposed to Bb.

Most brass instruments have ( roughly ) the same fingering, but differ in actual pitch, so play in different keys.

My sister has a C clarinet ( and an Eb one ) and it's amazing how much different it sounds from the Bb standard one.

[Bilbo]

You can also get a C-melody saxophone, whatever that is!

[chrisba]

I came across the subject of Temperament a couple of years ago and found it interesting, so here is a short summary.

If you play a note, then play another note with double the frequency, it will be an octave higher than the first ( and sounds "right") . That is fundamental to all music.
If you play another note with three times the frequency, that will be a fifth higher again. ( eg. Low G, High G, High D are one, two and three times the frequency ). This too sounds "right"
The rest of western musical scale can be constructed using fifths, as if you start with C, then go up in fifths, you get G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F and back to C , which is all 12 notes of the chromatic scale ( not in order, obviously ). This is called the Circle of Fifths and is fundamental to western music

BUT... This model is broken, because the C you get to at the end of the circle is not quite the same as the one at the beginning ( do the maths, you end up with a frequency that's about 1.5% out, enough to sound out of tune ).

To fix this, we have to shift the frequencies that define the notes down very slightly so they all fit exactly into one octave, and there are various ways that shifting can be done, and "well tempered" was one of the ways this was done. There are several other ways, and the standard way now is 12 Tone equal temperament. This means that, in any given key, all the notes apart from the root, are very slightly out of tune.

I'm told that one of the reasons that instruments that are infinitely variable ( like violins and the human voice ) sound "pure" is that the players/singers automatically adjust the note so that it sounds right for the given moment. ( Obviously, this doesn't apply to fretless basses or trombones )

I'm not a musical theory expert, so if any of the above is incorrect, please correct as necessary. Lots more in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament"]Wikipedia[/url], of course.

Edited December 10, 2009 by chrisba

[Al Heeley]

The pre-history of musical instruments goes back to hitting various objects to give different tones. this led to drums, xylophone type things, then later the evolution of instruments such as pan pipes - tubes with holes in them you blow down and create the first MELODY.
None of this explains the C scale question though it is an interesting thread.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='680221' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:27 PM']I am trying to look this up (saddo that I am) and can't find a definitive answer but it appears that it evolved rather than happened. Early instruments appear to have been variable in pitch but a common phenomenon appears to have been pentatonics (a Chinese discovery originally). Early keyboards would have had all white notes but, as musicians 'discovered' other notes, they added them one at a time calling them sharps or flats etc. Tempered scales came later but I guess noone woke up one day and said 'lets call this easy one C' but it evolved over centuries and across continents to what we call the tempered scale today. All of this is a Western phenomenon and other culltures have different notes/scales etc.

In short, it was unintentional.[/quote]

Sorry to come into this a little bit late.

Equal Temperament is a relatively recent phenomenon, that basically emerged from amongst a series of attempts to resolve an inherent problem with Just Intonation. Although it's origins can be traced back to the late 16th Century, it's use didn't really become universal until the 19th. It is entirely mathematical in structure, starting with a reference pitch of 440Hz (A5 I think) and spreading out in both directions form there according to a formula based on a geometric series (for more on this you may care to check out post #5 in my series on Greek Music [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=59011"]HERE[/url]).

Before that, the Western Medieval church held sway in all matters musical (and everything else for that matter). Their theories were basically hand-me-downs from the work of the Ancient Greeks in this area. Since there is nothing in the work of the Greeks that would suggest the use of C as the starting point (indeed the letter C does not even feature in the Greek alphabet, and in any case the notion of a central reference point for notes is slightly at odds with the way the Greeks approached the matter) it is hard to see how it came from there. My suspicion would be that you should look at the Medieval Church for the answer. C certainly appears to have been the accepted standard at the end of the Medieval period, and if it wasn't there at the start doesn't that suggest something?

Actually I'd be interested to hear what the Major has to say about it.

Hope this helps

Edited December 10, 2009 by leftybassman392

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='wulf' post='679936' date='Dec 10 2009, 09:34 AM']I suspect that the reason the majority of music teaching starts with C is that this it is the root of the only major key with no sharps or flats. What that doesn't answer is why C got picked for this honour.[/quote]

Yeah I would've phrased my question better if I hadn't been so drunk. Anyway, I'm quite pleased that so far lots of people who know lots about music theory have responded but none of them have the answer. Makes me feel a bit less thick.

Funnily enough I did a load of reading about temperaments a couple of months back so I knew a lot of the boffiny stuff above already. Go me!

Edited December 10, 2009 by thisnameistaken

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='680355' date='Dec 10 2009, 03:27 PM']Actually I'd be interested to hear what the Major has to say about it.[/quote]
This is a most interesting question - and I have to say i have no idea of the answer !
I shall ask some of my more erudite orchestral colleagues, but i don't hold out much hope of getting to the bottom of this one.

The Major

[Eight]

I'm going to wade in with a theory completely unbacked by any research.

If people were tuning to a common frequency e.g. 440Hz and wanted to name this note then they might think logically and start at the beginning of the alphabet. So if A is your reference and all your other notes follow from there - it would just so happen that the major scale with no sharps or flats starts with a frequency that gets called C because of it's distance from reference A.

And regarding equal temperament, my understanding was that it was derived mathematically (as previously mentioned) from an agreed reference point - which I will call A.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Eight