chord names

[Al Heeley]

Not too hot on the theory and nomenclature side, I understand a major chord is basically the 1st, 3rd and 5th note in a scale, and that a minor chord is the same but with the 3rd note flattened. A seventh is presumably notes 1,3,5 + 7 added in to form a chord.
However when you get to 9ths and add 11's, how does that work considering a scale has only 8 notes in it?

Also, cn someone explain the meaning of suspended when in the contect of Asus4 chord for example?

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='680336' date='Dec 10 2009, 03:11 PM']Not too hot on the theory and nomenclature side, I understand a major chord is basically the 1st, 3rd and 5th note in a scale, and that a minor chord is the same but with the 3rd note flattened. A seventh is presumably notes 1,3,5 + 7 added in to form a chord.
However when you get to 9ths and add 11's, how does that work considering a scale has only 8 notes in it?

Also, cn someone explain the meaning of suspended when in the contect of Asus4 chord for example?[/quote]
When you work up the scale, you go from 1 (root) up to 7, and then the next note's the root again, just an octave higher. You can think of that octave as note 8, so note 9 is the one after the octave and so on. So a C9 chord (for example) adds a D to the top of the chord. Yes, D is also note 2 in the scale, but using a 9 suggests that the D should be voiced into the second octave. (Incidentally, when you see C9, it's implied that there's a flat 7 in there too, so the chord would be C,E,G,Bb,D.)

Suspended simply means that there's no 3rd in the chord, and it's replaced with a 2 (sus2) or 4 (sus4). In jazz, a sus chord is a dominant seventh chord with an added fourth, which can be written as a slash chord: Dsus is equivalent to C/D.

HTH. Someone with much deeper knowledge than me will surely be along soon to add, correct and fill in the gaps.

[BottomEndian]

Also, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_%28music%29"]this Wikipedia page[/url] covers a lot of chord types, so it might be worth a squizz through that.

[Bilbo]

Most Western jazz harmony comes from six scales: major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, diminished and augmented. In VERY simplistic terms, chords are genrally built around alternate notes on each of those scales e.g. 1,3,5,7,9,11,13

C Major scale = CDEFGABC so 1357 is CEGB = a major seventh

c Natural Minor = CDEbFGAbBbC so 1357 is CEbGBb = minor seventh

c Harmonic minor = CDEbFGAbBC so 1357 is CEbGB = minor/major seventh

and so on.

Its a massive subject (especially when you get into voicings and inversions) but the principles are quite simple. I woudl recommend you get in touch with someone who knows this stuff and get some 1:1 time.

[Al Heeley]

Thanks, also found a really nicely written article here explaining a lot of this stuff, wish I'd learnt this 20 years ago...
www.museweb.com/ag/chord_form.html

[jakenewmanbass]

It's all been covered so the only thing I'd add is a term. The notes you refer to are called 'compound intervals' because they broadly (but not strictly In chord spelling) come from outside the first octave of a scale. The particular type of note and 'it' in combination with other notes make for great variety of expression where chords are concerned and an intimate knowledge of what makes a chord or scale sound like it does is the path to freedom of expression where playing is concerned.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='680451' date='Dec 10 2009, 05:47 PM']It's all been covered so the only thing I'd add is a term. The notes you refer to are called 'compound intervals' because they broadly (but not strictly In chord spelling) come from outside the first octave of a scale. The particular type of note and 'it' in combination with other notes make for great variety of expression where chords are concerned and an intimate knowledge of what makes a chord or scale sound like it does is the path to freedom of expression where playing is concerned.[/quote]

Jake: Are you saying that knowing what intervals sound like is, like, super-important, then? Because I've got a pretty good ear for that stuff (it's about all I'm good at) but I'm still a fairly rubbish musician, IMO.

What's the next-most important thing I should be learning? I never know what's worth learning and what isn't.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='680350' date='Dec 10 2009, 03:24 PM']When you work up the scale, you go from 1 (root) up to 7, and then the next note's the root again, just an octave higher. You can think of that octave as note 8, so note 9 is the one after the octave and so on. So a C9 chord (for example) adds a D to the top of the chord. Yes, D is also note 2 in the scale, but using a 9 suggests that the D should be voiced into the second octave. (Incidentally, when you see C9, it's implied that there's a flat 7 in there too, so the chord would be C,E,G,Bb,D.)

Suspended simply means that there's no 3rd in the chord, and it's replaced with a 2 (sus2) or 4 (sus4). In jazz, a sus chord is a dominant seventh chord with an added fourth, which can be written as a slash chord: Dsus is equivalent to C/D.

HTH. Someone with much deeper knowledge than me will surely be along soon to add, correct and fill in the gaps. [/quote]
Can I just correct one small point here:

You say "Dsus is equivalent to C/D".
This is not quite right.
Dsus is DGA
C/D is DGCE

If you wrote D7sus you would get DGAC
If you wrote D9sus you would get DGACE

The Major

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='680997' date='Dec 11 2009, 09:21 AM']Can I just correct one small point here:

You say "Dsus is equivalent to C/D".
This is not quite right.
Dsus is DGA
C/D is DGCE

If you wrote D7sus you would get DGAC
If you wrote D9sus you would get DGACE

The Major[/quote]
Thanks. I'm happy to stand corrected.

The thing is, ten years ago (back when I were a lad with only classical and rock backgrounds) I would never have said Dsus = C/D. I've long thought of Dsus as DGA. However, with a bit of exposure to jazz theory (and I'm pretty sure Mark Levine lays it out like this in [i]The Jazz Theory Book[/i]), I've come across the idea of Dsus = C/D too many times to ignore. In fact, looking at Wikipedia (that bastion of accuracy ) again, they've got it there as well on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspended_chord"]the page for suspended chords[/url]. I mean, it's Gsus = F/G there, but it's the same thing.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that jazz chord terminologies seem to imply different things from standard "rock"-style symbols, but yes, this one's always struck me as a bridge too far. I guess it's an easy shorthand for a much more complex chord. If every jazzer knows that ([b]in jazz[/b]) Dsus actually means D9sus without a 5, that would make charts simpler to read.

Of course, I'm happy to stand corrected again.

Yours,

Confused of Corbridge

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='681028' date='Dec 11 2009, 10:00 AM']Thanks. I'm happy to stand corrected.

The thing is, ten years ago (back when I were a lad with only classical and rock backgrounds) I would never have said Dsus = C/D. I've long thought of Dsus as DGA. However, with a bit of exposure to jazz theory (and I'm pretty sure Mark Levine lays it out like this in [i]The Jazz Theory Book[/i]), I've come across the idea of Dsus = C/D too many times to ignore. In fact, looking at Wikipedia (that bastion of accuracy ) again, they've got it there as well on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspended_chord"]the page for suspended chords[/url]. I mean, it's Gsus = F/G there, but it's the same thing.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that jazz chord terminologies seem to imply different things from standard "rock"-style symbols, but yes, this one's always struck me as a bridge too far. I guess it's an easy shorthand for a much more complex chord. If every jazzer knows that ([b]in jazz[/b]) Dsus actually means D9sus without a 5, that would make charts simpler to read.

Of course, I'm happy to stand corrected again.

Yours,

Confused of Corbridge[/quote]
I looked at the wiki sus chord page, and it is mostly accurate except for this paragraph where it mentions what it calls "jazz sus chord". Setting aside for a moment the fact that there is no such thing as "jazz theory" (or rock theory or classical theory - its all just "theory"), the whole point of having chord symbols is to communicate from composer/arranger to player (or from one muso to another ) what harmony is intended for the passage of music being played.

If academics (and others) try to stamp their own identity on the accepted norm, then we will end with confusion like the above example. Granted, the chord symbol method is not foolproof, indeed it is hugely limited in scope, there being many occasions where the only solution is for the writer to specify exactly what notes and voicing are required.

It has always been entirely clear to me that "sus" in a chord symbol means the fourth REPLACES the 3rd.
If you require the 3rd as well as the 4th (as in CEFG) then this is clearly a major triad with an added 4th and therefore will be written C add F (or Cadd4).

The word "add" is very useful on these occasions. It leaves no uncertainty. A note is simply added to the named chord.

What has to be remembered is that the 3rd of the chord (either major or minor) is what gives the harmony its distinctive flavour. If you replace the 3rd with a 4th (sus), you completely change the character of that chord - it becomes a more open, floating sort of harmony. I'm particularly fond of this sound and use it a lot in my own writing. Consecutive sus chords are always a great tool for inspiration. Think of the intro to Street Life by the Crusaders as an example.

As the Wiki article says, a MAJOR triad with an added 4th is fairly dissonant (a lovely crunchy sound). However a MINOR triad with an added 4th is quite a relaxed harmony, not quite stable, but still fairly smooth in character.


I forgot to mention in my previous post that D9sus (for instance) can also be written as Am7/D (DGACE), and is somehow easier to read for improv purposes.
The very nature of jazz means that the chord sequence is only ever a rough guide, and so some loose abbreviations are quite acceptable in a heavily improvised situation. Its all about using yours ears anyway on most jazz gigs. However, if you are playing in a reading situation - say in a heavily arranged big band setting or TV / Film session - then accuracy in the rhythm section chord charts is vital. All too often, I've seen chord symbols written by less experienced arrangers that leave the poor old guitarist scratching his head.

I've banged on about this before on the forum:
Music theory has developed over many hundreds of years, its not science, its entirely man-made, based on our emotions and preferences and to a certain extent on our musical conditioning - ie the sounds we have been exposed to.
I work in many different music genres, so I see at first hand the differing ways of articulating musical thought, but in the final analysis, we NEED a consensus of opinion and methods when it comes to music creation / re-creation. Otherwise we just end up with confusion and wasted time in the rehearsal room.


The Major

[BottomEndian]

Thanks, Major. Top-class stuff, as ever.

Can we start some sort of Campaign for Cross-Genre Clarity and Consistency in Chord Symbols and Nomenclature? Join the CCGCCCSN! Catchy acronym, huh?

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='682131' date='Dec 12 2009, 01:15 PM']Thanks, Major. Top-class stuff, as ever. [/quote]

+1 , and to your good self Mr B.E cheers gents

[fingeringAm]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='680997' date='Dec 11 2009, 01:21 AM']Can I just correct one small point here:

You say "Dsus is equivalent to C/D".
This is not quite right.
Dsus is DGA
C/D is DGCE

If you wrote D7sus you would get DGAC
If you wrote D9sus you would get DGACE

The Major[/quote]
I thought the "/" between two chord names meant an inversion?

Like C/E would be a C in first inversion and C/G would be second inversion ect...

Am I mistaken?

Edited December 23, 2009 by fingeringAm

[Al Heeley]

The article I read said that C/G was a C chord with a low G added to it. Not sure what an inversion means!

[fingeringAm]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='686013' date='Dec 15 2009, 11:06 PM']The article I read said that C/G was a C chord with a low G added to it. Not sure what an inversion means![/quote]
Thats what it means. I'll look for a good article on inversions or post some scans of a book I'm reading.

Inversions are just that, a chord where the tonic is not the lowest note (also called, "in the bass").
So a C/G would be GEC, where G is in the bass. That would be called 2nd Inversion, because the 5 (G) is in the bass.
When the 3(E) is in the bass, it is called 1st inversion. That would be EGC or C/E.
Then with 7th Chords, when the 7( B ) is in the bass it is 3rd inversion.
And when the tonic [i]is[/i] in the bass, its called Root position. CEG

Bare in mind I'm utterly green with this stuff so please correctly where I'm wrong.

Edited December 16, 2009 by fingeringAm

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='fingeringAm' post='686015' date='Dec 16 2009, 07:19 AM']Thats what it means. I'll look for a good article on inversions or post some scans of a book I'm reading.

Inversions are just that, a chord where the tonic is not the lowest note (also called, "in the bass").
So a C/G would be GEC, where G is in the bass. That would be called 2nd Inversion, because the 5 (G) is in the bass.
When the 3(E) is in the bass, it is called 1st inversion. That would be EGC or C/E.
Then with 7th Chords, when the 7( B ) is in the bass it is 3rd inversion.
And when the tonic [i]is[/i] in the bass, its called Root position. CEG

Bare in mind I'm utterly green with this stuff so please correctly where I'm wrong.[/quote]
Yes you are absolutely correct. Although to be honest I've rarely heard anybody actually refer to the "3rd" inversion, but it makes sense to call it that in a 4 note chord.
Chord symbols are just abbreviations after all, so the idea of having "slash" chords is instead of writing "1st Inversion" etc which would be a bit cumbersome.
In Baroque music they used the "figured bass" system on harpsichord parts which was a similar idea but the other way round. So they would write a bass note (say G) and write 6/4 underneath it, meaning the intervals of a 6th and a 4th from this note, giving us E (the 6th) and C (the 4th) so we have a C major triad in the second inversion or C/G in modern parlance.


The Major

Edited December 16, 2009 by Major-Minor

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='fingeringAm' post='686011' date='Dec 16 2009, 06:57 AM']I thought the "/" between two chord names meant an inversion?

Like C/F would be a C in first inversion and C/G would be second inversion ect...

Am I mistaken?[/quote]
A slash can certainly be used as a useful shorthand for an inversion, like you say (although first inversion would be C/E, not C/F, but you got it right in your follow-up post so that's presumably a typo!). However, slash chords are also a useful shorthand for some more exotic chords. Try them on a keyboard and see! For example, I find C/F particularly lovely, and it's a lot simpler to read at speed than its standard equivalent, which would be something like Fmaj9(no 3rd). Same with the notorious C/D (discussed above).

[BottomEndian]

And the Major pips me while I tap out my reply on my phone... Good stuff as ever.

[BottomEndian]

I just thought of another situation where slash chords are very useful. I've come across this sort of chord progression quite a lot (it's kind of Stairway-to-Heaven-meets-Oasis) when doing singer/songwritery acousticy/piano stuff:

Am Am/G# // Am/G Am/F# // Am/F Am/D // Gsus G // (or replace the last bar with // Esus E // -- it works equally well)

To me, that makes the intention of the first three bars pretty obvious -- thinking in terms of the piano, you can create the desired sound by keeping an A-minor chord in the right hand and just having the left hand descend chromatically (until the jump to D).

Like the Major said, "chord symbols are just abbreviations", so it makes sense to choose the abbreviation that best suits the result you're trying to achieve. If you chose to rewrite the chords in terms of "root note and structure plus extensions", you'd end up with some absolute monstrosities that completely obfuscate the simplicity of the progression. Something like:

Am G#augb9 // [b]???[/b] F#m7b5 // Fmaj7 Dm9 // Gsus G //

I don't even know of a way to write Am/G as a non-slash chord. (BTW, I know that although Am/D doesn't include the F-natural expressed by Dm9, I chose Dm9 to continue the F-natural feeling through the bar. Also BTW, if I were writing out that progression as a reference to use while playing, I'd probably write the third bar as I have in the second version, but that's entirely personal preference.)

Edited December 16, 2009 by BottomEndian

[fingeringAm]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='686042' date='Dec 16 2009, 12:39 AM']Yes you are absolutely correct. Although to be honest [b]I've rarely heard anybody actually refer to the "3rd" inversion, but it makes sense to call it that in a 4 note chord.[/b]
Chord symbols are just abbreviations after all, so the idea of having "slash" chords is instead of writing "1st Inversion" etc which would be a bit cumbersome.
In Baroque music they used the "figured bass" system on harpsichord parts which was a similar idea but the other way round. So they would write a bass note (say G) and write 6/4 underneath it, meaning the intervals of a 6th and a 4th from this note, giving us E (the 6th) and C (the 4th) so we have a C major triad in the second inversion or C/G in modern parlance.


The Major[/quote]
Thanks I always like to double check when i learn something to make sure I have it right.
If its not 3rd inversion what would it be called? I don't want to sound like a idiot trying to tell someone that.

I'm unfamiliar with Baroque music, where would I run into this?
[quote name='BottomEndian' post='686046' date='Dec 16 2009, 12:46 AM']A slash can certainly be used as a useful shorthand for an inversion, like you say (although first inversion would be C/E, not C/F, but you got it right in your follow-up post so that's presumably a typo!). However, slash chords are also a useful shorthand for some more exotic chords. Try them on a keyboard and see! For example, I find C/F particularly lovely, and it's a lot simpler to read at speed than its standard equivalent, which would be something like Fmaj9(no 3rd). Same with the notorious C/D (discussed above).[/quote]
Ya it was late, I didn't catch it.

Edited December 23, 2009 by fingeringAm

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='fingeringAm' post='692028' date='Dec 23 2009, 07:34 AM']I'm unfamiliar with Baroque music, where would I run into this?[/quote]
Very roughly speaking, the Baroque period was during the 18th century. Composers like Bach, Scarlatti, Handel, Vivaldi, Purcell, Rameau etc

Have a listen to The Four Seasons by Vivaldi - that will give you a good idea of the style of that time.

The double bass came in towards the end of that period and was a 3 string instrument to begin with. Prior to that, the Violone was the bass instrument of the viol family, the forerunner to todays DB.

The Major

[Al Heeley]

According to my old chum Wikipedia the Baroque period ran from 1600 to 1750, referring to european Classical music. Vivaldi's seminal work was composed in 1723.