Hello! New Here, Can anyone help????

[davetcollection]

As the title says: I'm new here, hello everyone!

I bought this bass in 1990 from a 2nd hand shop in Kidderminster and the guy at the time said it was about 15 yrs old then!

Can anyone help with what it is?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.























I think it's a model number 407?

And the serial number is 1176

[warwickhunt]

Try asking here... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7473"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7473[/url]

[Bloodaxe]

Greetings & Welcome - Fine piece of JapCrap there!

I'm no expert on this (but we do have a couple), but I'd say the dating sounds about right roughly ish.

That back pickup looks interesting - any chance of a photo of that?

Also there's been a logo nailed to the headstock at some point in the past, if you could get a clearer & bigger shot I'm sure you'll soon know as much as you ever will.

Cue the Cap'n!

[davetcollection]

Thanks for that. Hope these are what you wanted.

[Pete Academy]

Looks like an old Antoria or Columbus.

[Dom in Dorset]

It looks like the G string is falling off the side of the neck!
I'd have said that the pick ups aren't original but the neck one does look like it's always been there.
One of the best basses I ever had was a tatty no-name jazz.

[FlatEric]

Grant???

[davetcollection]

[quote name='Dom in Somerset' post='689924' date='Dec 20 2009, 05:37 PM']It looks like the G string is falling off the side of the neck!
I'd have said that the pick ups aren't original but the neck one does look like it's always been there.
One of the best basses I ever had was a tatty no-name jazz.[/quote]


LOL Thanks! I think it's the angle of the photo with the G-String !!

I've never changed the pick-ups and have had them off to repair wiring and would say they're original TBH

It has got a great tone though!

Edited December 20, 2009 by davetcollection

[Bassassin]

That's an Avon - it should have a badge like this:

[attachment=38665:avonjhead.jpg]

Looks original to me - the bridge pup & surround are original - the pickups are probably Maxxons, and are the same as those used in early 70s MIJ Tele copies.

Avon was never the most salubrious British JapCrap brand - but they weren't necessarily bad. I'm pretty sure these were made by Rokkomann in Kobe - I actually had what looks like an identical J copy branded Maya, which was Rokkomann's house brand:

[attachment=38648:bodyf.jpg] [attachment=38649:headneckf.jpg]

These same basses appear with other names too, including CMI, Jim Marshall's 1970s instrument brand.

Obviously, the not-exactly-standard pickups are designed to be hidden under ashtrays, as is the 2-saddle bridge - very common on early MIJ copies, even on the supposedly more upmarket Antorias & Ibanezes. And talking of the bridge - this one does seem to have been aligned following an extended [i]sake[/i] - break! I think I'd feel inclined to bite the bullet & fill in the old holes & re-drill. & I'd probably stick a standard 4-saddle bridge on, while I was at it.

I might have one of those old Avon badges kicking around in my spares draw, if you're interested... & by the way - what's the bolt neck LP copy? Another oldie - the big diamond inlay's making me think Cort, but if so it's a rebrand. Can't read that logo, though...

Jon.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Bassassin

[davetcollection]

Thanks ever so much Jon.

LOL I'm not sitting on a collector's piece then PMSL (Hey-Ho!)

The LP copy is a 1984 Franconia - absoloutely rubbish, but I haven't got the heart to chuck it as my late Dad bought it for my 14th Birthday present!

You're both right about the bridge! You know in all the time I've owned it, I've never noticed how out of alignment it is!!! LOL

Thanks for the advice guys.

Looks like I've got to put alot more to my Ricky now, never mind

[arsenic]

The pickups do seem to be fairly typical of the era....these are the ones on an Agelica Tele bass copy I have(my first bass), from around 72/73.

[attachment=38689:DSCF2686.JPG] [attachment=38688:DSCF2681.JPG]

The bridge is very similar, if not identical to the Avon Jazz featured here.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='davetcollection' post='690081' date='Dec 20 2009, 07:44 PM']Thanks ever so much Jon.

LOL I'm not sitting on a collector's piece then PMSL (Hey-Ho!)

The LP copy is a 1984 Franconia - absoloutely rubbish, but I haven't got the heart to chuck it as my late Dad bought it for my 14th Birthday present!

You're both right about the bridge! You know in all the time I've owned it, I've never noticed how out of alignment it is!!! LOL

Thanks for the advice guys.

Looks like I've got to put alot more to my Ricky now, never mind[/quote]

Well - all 70s MIJ stuff is getting a bit collectable these days - even the more "humble" brands like Avon. If you like the way it plays & sounds, then use it!

I had a Franconia Jazz copy a couple of years back - wasn't too bad, TBH, apart from weighing a ton & having a neck like a tree trunk. Ridiculously loud pups, if I remember.

Arsenic - that Angelica's fascinating - never seen one the same before. It's 34" scale, by the looks. Any danger of more pics? Angelica's a pretty rare brand & I'd be intrigued to see if I can work out who made it. Anyway you're right about the hardware - identical stuff turns up on loads of instruments from many different factories, suggesting there were probably only a couple of suppliers of hardware & electronics. A lot of stuff came from Gotoh - even back then they were a pretty big player in the Japanese instrument industry.

J.

[FlatEric]

[quote name='arsenic' post='690103' date='Dec 20 2009, 08:06 PM']The pickups do seem to be fairly typical of the era....these are the ones on an Agelica Tele bass copy I have(my first bass), from around 72/73.

[attachment=38689:DSCF2686.JPG] [attachment=38688:DSCF2681.JPG]

The bridge is very similar, if not identical to the Avon Jazz featured here.[/quote]

Hi.
Your Angelica looks identical to my Columbus. Maybe the same factory?

Cheers.

[arsenic]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='691150' date='Dec 22 2009, 12:22 AM']Arsenic - that Angelica's fascinating - never seen one the same before. It's 34" scale, by the looks. Any danger of more pics? Angelica's a pretty rare brand & I'd be intrigued to see if I can work out who made it. Anyway you're right about the hardware - identical stuff turns up on loads of instruments from many different factories, suggesting there were probably only a couple of suppliers of hardware & electronics. A lot of stuff came from Gotoh - even back then they were a pretty big player in the Japanese instrument industry.

J.[/quote]

Fist off I would like to apologise for hi-jacking the OP's thread.

Well, it was neglected for a number of years following heavy use use from day one.

Sad to say that as I was only around 11 years old when I picked it up, it was never looked after that well. But as the years went on I grew to appreciate what I had, and I will only part with it when I shuffle off this mortal coil - My two kids are already arguing about which one will releive my cold dead hands of this one, and neither seems to be as bothered who is going to get the Fenders, Hohners etc....though I am tempted to have my ashes sealed into a small container, and then fitted behind the pickguard - I'll haunt the buggers when I'm gone.

Anyway back to the bass....

Angelica Deluxe (cos it says so on the headstock).
[attachment=38765:DSCF2738.JPG]

The neck is made up of many narrow strips of wood...this is now quite bent - way to much releif, and the truss rod is backed right off, so the action is quite high.
The neck is attached by six screws, and it has made in Japan stamped onto the neck plate.
[attachment=38760:DSCF2739.JPG][attachment=38759:DSCF2688.JPG][attachment=38762:DSCF2689.JPG]
[attachment=38761:DSCF2743.JPG]

The body is a solid wood, (not plywood), slab.
The bridge,tuners,ashtrays,control plate,string tree, truss rod cover,strap buttons etc are all original.
The pickguard screws have been replaced - but I have what is left of the originals.
The control knobs have been replaced, but again I have the originals.
It has been rewired once or twice over the years, but last time, the pots, pickup selector switch and capacitor were replaced - again the originals were retained.
The Pickups - as I recall one of them was re-wound using the original wire, but both have suffered over the years, and the volume is really low - and there is now a terrible buzz/hum if the volume is turn down from max.
[attachment=38763:DSCF2736.JPG][attachment=38766:DSCF2745.JPG][attachment=38764:DSCF2741.JPG]

So it's in a bit of a sorry state - but I was wondering whether to retire it, try to restore it to a playable state - try and get somrthing done to the neck, a re-fret, pickups re-wound and a full rewire, or pimp it up to look more like the '51P/Telebass.- which means buying a new neck, pick guard with one cutout for a single, single coil pickup etc....what's the price of sentimental value?????

Scale length is actually 30" - and having just checked the relief in the neck agian - its looking a bit better than I remember it - but the action still needs to be high to avoid fret buzz, possibly due to the fact the frets are worn with deep grooves here and there.
Originally it had a lovely deep tone, with the acoustic twang still audible - now it's got a bit more of a higher tone, with less volume , but the twang is still there.

Anything you can tell me about this would be great - all I know is it was brought new around '72-'73 from a music shop in Birmingham for somewhere around £30, and I am led to believe that they were a rebrand for Boosey and Hawkes - which would fit in with there being a B&H retailer at the Snow Hill end of Colmore Row around this time.

[arsenic]

[quote name='FlatEric' post='691308' date='Dec 22 2009, 10:05 AM']Hi.
Your Angelica looks identical to my Columbus. Maybe the same factory?

Cheers.[/quote]

That interesting, because I have not seen another bass like this.

Any chance of some pictures - would be interested in a comparrison.

I was always a bit of a sucker for some of the low end Jap stuff - I well remember lusting after a Shaftsbury Rick copy way back, and I used to have a really nice Avon EB/SG style bass in a transparent goldy colour, that played rather well - that was part ex'ed for a '73 Fender Precision - now sadly long gone due to unemplyment in my early twenties (about 25/26 years ago) - I would like to replace that with an all original '62 (year I was born) or a nice late '70's all natural/maple one, a bit like Jon's Japcraptasic one thats in the For Sale section. - but not until I have lots of money.

Edited December 22, 2009 by arsenic

[Bassassin]

Cheers for the pics - really surprised it's a short-scale - usually the bodies on the 30" versions look huge - yours is nicely proportioned. So to speak. :brow:

The neck & neckplate are unusual & might give a clue to its age & origin. JapCrap nerds call necks like that "strip mahogany" - basically a posh word for ply - and they're pretty common on 60s MIJ stuff, disappearing at the very start of the "copy era". Usually they're painted over, and I don't think I remember seeing one on a Fender copy before, never with a maple board. I'd say 72 is probably the latest it might be, and quite possibly a bit older - perhaps old stock, if you got it new?

The 6-bolt neckplate seems to be associated with the early output of Moridaira, who were basically an acoustic manufacturer which jumped on the 70s copy bandwagon. Unfortunately that's not a 100% ID - there's so little verifiable history of old JapCrap that it's difficult to be certain about anything. As far as the Angelica name's concerned, if you understand it to be a Boosey & Hawkes brand then it probably is - all of the old UK 70s brands were importer/distributor trade names, and there were dozens of them in a very small market. This is why the actual Japanese brands - your Ibanezes, Arias, Kasugas, Morrises, Mayas etc are comparitively unusual on copy-era instruments, but the exact same instruments from the same factories all turn up with UK importer names.

If it was mine I'd want to keep it original - rewind the pups & sort out the electrics, and some fret work (maybe just a level & crown, if you can get the relief out & there's enough metal left), because aesthetically you've done a great job of keeping looking good - right down to the ashtrays. If you were to put a different neck on it, you'd even have to move the bridge to compensate for the longer scale - & basically all you'd be keeping is the body wood once you did everything else.

[quote]I would like to replace that with an all original '62 (year I was born) or a nice late '70's all natural/maple one, a bit like Jon's Japcraptasic one thats in the For Sale section. - but not until I have lots of money.[/quote]

If you'd like my JapCrapTastic P to be going on with - it isn't lots of money!

J.

[Gary Holder]

I have a model of that bass by Maya.

Best wishes
Gary

[davetcollection]

Again, thanks for all the help guys.

A friend at work is into Guitar restoration/building and is going to have a look at it for me after X-mas. New bridge, frets and nut and another re-wire.

The quality of the wood doesn't seem that bad, I'm not expert so don't know what it is. It is quite heavy - as is the Franconia LP copy.

As said it really has got a lovely tone.

[Cat Burrito]

Hi davetcollection - it's amazing how similar these 70s Jap basses look. I have an Antoria that to an untrained eye would look almost identical.

[Bassassin]

Pictures or it didn't happen. As they say in some quarters of the Interweb.

J.

[arsenic]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='692408' date='Dec 23 2009, 03:45 PM']If it was mine I'd want to keep it original - rewind the pups & sort out the electrics, and some fret work (maybe just a level & crown, if you can get the relief out & there's enough metal left), because aesthetically you've done a great job of keeping looking good - right down to the ashtrays. If you were to put a different neck on it, you'd even have to move the bridge to compensate for the longer scale - & basically all you'd be keeping is the body wood once you did everything else.



If you'd like my JapCrapTastic P to be going on with - it isn't lots of money!

J.[/quote]

Thanks for that Jon.

Your right, since I posted those pictures, I really did think about trying to restore it - seems the best idea. It may well be a full re-fret, rewind the original pickup bobbins, and get the thing re-wired, with the neck the way it is, a re-fret may be enough to lower the action to make it playable.

I did actually think about that P copy of yours, but I have just commited to a short scale fretless build from Prosebase.....mind you if you haven't sold it by the time I have some spare cash - I may just take it off your hands.

[FlatEric]

[quote name='arsenic' post='691433' date='Dec 22 2009, 12:47 PM']That interesting, because I have not seen another bass like this.

Any chance of some pictures - would be interested in a comparrison.

I was always a bit of a sucker for some of the low end Jap stuff - I well remember lusting after a Shaftsbury Rick copy way back, and I used to have a really nice Avon EB/SG style bass in a transparent goldy colour, that played rather well - that was part ex'ed for a '73 Fender Precision - now sadly long gone due to unemplyment in my early twenties (about 25/26 years ago) - I would like to replace that with an all original '62 (year I was born) or a nice late '70's all natural/maple one, a bit like Jon's Japcraptasic one thats in the For Sale section. - but not until I have lots of money.[/quote]

Not great pics but should show similarity.

[attachment=38821:TelBass.jpg]
[attachment=38822:TelBass1.jpg]
[attachment=38823:TelBass2.jpg]

Had a quick go on this today - really quite good.

Cheers.

[arsenic]

[quote name='FlatEric' post='692594' date='Dec 23 2009, 09:22 PM']Not great pics but should show similarity.

Had a quick go on this today - really quite good.

Cheers.[/quote]

There is more than a passing resemblance there - there are slight differences in the tuners, string tree, and the pickup cover (the one on yours seems be slightly curved on top), with the only major difference being the single pickup/selector switch,, and the rosewood board.

But that is lovely - it definately looks like part of the same family, right down to the type and colour of the body finish and strap buttons - and that is in far better condition than mine.

I don't suppose you have any idea of a date for it.

[Bassassin]

The Columbus will be pretty much the same age as the Angelica - the metal pin-badges usually indicate early 70s at the latest & they're very uncommon on Columbus instruments. So that would put both of them between '68 - '72 - basically because you didn't get copies much earlier than that.

I don't think the two basses are related, other than by the fact they're medium-scale copies of the same instrument. Hardware is probably from the same source, but from experience I'd guess the Columbus will have a ply body construction, while the Angelica will be a butcher-block sandwich with front & back veneers. We can see that both necks are entirely different, both in construction & specification - the Angelica is strip mahogany whereas the Columbus is a more conventional single piece of mahogany. Additionally the Columbus is very narrow and has 21 frets, but does not have a zero-fret like the Angelica. Headstock shapes are very different (Columbus is much more accurate) so do not come from the same template.

It's hard to tell without being able to see them side-by-side but I think the bodies would turn out to be pretty different also - as I said before the Angelica looks a bit better proportioned. What's interesting is that I think the Columbus might be a copy of a copy - spec & shape-wise it's a lot closer to the Italian-made Eko version:

[url="http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/eko/varie/shaftesbury_tele%20bass.html"]http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/eko/vari...ele%20bass.html[/url]

Here's a 1974 catalogue shot showing an unbranded Eko with the original ashtrays:

[url="http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg"]http://personal.inet.fi/surf/lorse/bellcatalogue/26.jpg[/url]

Anyway - this is now ridiculously off-topic - but we need to see Burrito's Antoria (I guarantee - it's not gonna be the same as either of these. Probably.) right now! Vintage JapCrap discussion sub-forum, anyone?

J.

[arsenic]

I humble myself before your expansive knowledge, and I agree this should be returned to original topic - bring on the Antoria, Burrito

(grabs coat and heads to Japcrap sub forum)