Floating Thumb

[iamthewalrus]

Hiya,
Wonder if anyone here can give me some pointers on floating thumb technique?

Main reason for asking is that I've been using the moveable anchor technique for years which has worked ok, but would really like to get this technique under my hands.

Would like to have everyone's input on how they learned to do this (negative or positive - don't really mind, I'm not easily offended).

Looking forward to seeing your replies!

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

Edited December 23, 2009 by iamthewalrus

[wotnwhy]

someone had a thread a while ago asking for a demonstration of floating thumb so i put up this video. might be of some use to you

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFSeNy_GMk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFSeNy_GMk[/url]

[6stringbassist]

I'm selling a DVD by Todd Johnson if you're interested. He (I think), started the technique. He's certainly a master of it anyway.

I had the privilege os studying with him for a couple of days last year. The technique is especially useful if you play 5 string and 6 string basses. It really cuts down on unwanted string noise, strings that you're not playing 'ringing'.

It's a more sensible way of playing. Playing while pivoting your thumb on the B string and stretching down to play the G and C strings, that's a hell of a stretch, and you're not in proper control of what you're doing.

I use a mix of 'floating thumb' and resting my thumb on the string above the one I'm playing. So my right hand moves down the strings as I play.

Check the Todd Johnson section on talkbass, there are loads of links to Youtube videos on there, showing him demonstrating the technique.

Edited December 23, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[mcgraham]

Floating thumb is a great technique. Keeps everything quiet, releases tension in your hand, and makes moving about the strings a lot smoother as you're not 'anchored' on anything in the same way as locking your thumb on/behind a string.

Some disadvantages? You may feel a little bit disconnected from the bass if you're used to anchoring lots. You may feel a bit underconfident about the relative position of your plucking hand as you won't have the absolute reference point you had before. You also need to learn different muscle memory for string skipping/jumping. Your arm also plays more of a role in stabilising your hand when plucking. You may feel you can't pluck as authoritatively as you're not 'plucking into your thumb' like the more usual pinching action.

However, I feel that these are only initial bug-bears that soon wear off. I feel that the benefits you get with FT cannot be achieved through the anchoring technique (whether movable or immovable), and that the disadvantages soon disappear (particularly as it teaches you to play softer as you won't be quite as aggressive when first using FT).

Check out these threads for some discussions of this technique:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=44705&hl=floating"]This one...[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11218&hl=floating"]And this one...[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7772&hl=floating"]And another one...[/url]

Edited December 23, 2009 by mcgraham

[Doddy]

I've tried the floating thumb technique,and although I can do it,it just
does not feel comfortable to me.
I've always used a movable anchor-with very little pressure on the thumb,
and have never had any problems with ringing strings or anything.
The floating thumb is kind of fashionable at the minute-and it's cool-
but for me,I have not seen any advantages in using it.

[iamthewalrus]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far - I think the reason I probably feel I need to learn it is this:

I'm in a band at the moment that rehearses pretty regularly. Sometimes the rehearsals can last as long as 5 hours (with breaks) & one thing I've noticed is that my hands ache a bit at the end (I'm using a 5 string). I was wondering if I might have had the start of CTS or something similar (might also be old age creeping in - I'm 46!) as a result of my current technique. Hence the possibility of learning this technique to keep my playing going.

Keep the POV coming....

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

Edited December 23, 2009 by iamthewalrus

[wotnwhy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='692322' date='Dec 23 2009, 01:34 PM']The floating thumb is kind of fashionable at the minute-and it's cool-[/quote]



thought i was the only one that read vogue..

genuinely interested to know what made you come to this conclusion though. haven't seen any evidence myself.

[quote]I've always used a movable anchor-with very little pressure on the thumb[/quote]

i think the method i use is a little of both. if i'm playing a line of mostly E (or A, D etc) string notes then as you, i will lightly rest my thumb on the next string. but when moving around the strings, especially if there's multi string jumps then floating more makes things much smoother and (for me) easier. but then i adopted this technique almost 10 years ago.

[Doddy]

[quote name='wotnwhy' post='692350' date='Dec 23 2009, 02:25 PM']

thought i was the only one that read vogue..

genuinely interested to know what made you come to this conclusion though. haven't seen any evidence myself.[/quote]

The reason I said that it's fashionable at the minute,is because in the last 12-18 months there has been alot
of talk of the technique on the various bass forums,and a bunch of lessons on how to use it. Kind of in the same
way that Double Thumbing became fashionable when Wooten became popular,the floating thumb technique has
become increasingly talked about since Todd Johnson became more high profile.

[XB26354]

I use floating thumb for 6-string but I came upon it by experimenting years ago.
I didn't even know it had a name until other people spoke about it!
However despite the chat on various forums nothing is new under the sun. It's actually an adaptation of the floating picking technique used by jazz guitarists such as Ivor Mairants. The only change for bass is the need for the relaxed thumb (which is now not holding a pick) to touch/brush the lower strings to aid right hand damping. The biggest hindrance is repeated skipping of two or more strings (which is also difficult with an anchored thumb). The only solution I've seen is to use three fingers a la Gary Willis, but as Mark has mentioned it is all to easy to get too tangled up deciding which finger is to play which note. If you play 6 string it's almost essential to avoid the big old B rumbling whenever you play higher up on the neck

[JTUK]

well, only you can tell if it helps with fatigue, I was thinking more on a damping technique rather than a string mute which is a subtle difference IMV.
Not sure why you would have problems over a 5 string anyway, but it may depend how high slung you have the bass

A decent compromise to floating is to anchor as you go across/up the strings, but if just for ringing strings...then I'd work on left hand damping anyway. Low open strings shouldn't ring unless you hit them..

[mcgraham]

[quote]Low open strings shouldn't ring unless you hit them[/quote]
I disagree. Sympathetic vibration can set off low notes, general movement of the bass can cause an undesired rumble from lower strings, not pulling off cleanly when moving from low to high can leave a ringing string in your wake, etc. Loads of ways a lower string can be sounded.
[quote]A decent compromise to floating is to anchor as you go across/up the strings, but if just for ringing strings...then I'd work on left hand damping anyway[/quote]
Whilst I once would have agreed with you about left hand damping being sufficient, I would take issue with this now. In essence, IMO, your left hand has enough worry about when fretting notes than to worry about also being the primary muting source for low strings (as well as high strings).

To illustrate, I once played the 4 finger TIMR popularised by Matt Garrison exclusively for a year. No anchored thumb and no right hand thumb muting - I had to mute using only my left hand. I essentially used my index finger like a hairband style mute and dragged it across the strings lightly to mute all ringing, using certain parts of the finger to fret notes that I wanted. This was fine for a while, but as my left hand technique caught up to my right hand speed/technique, I realised that more complex lines were not compatible with leaving my index finger in this position. All this speed was for nought if I couldn't mute effectively. So I went back to two finger floating thumb, knowing full well that if I could play 4 finger at speed 'x', then two fingers must be able to move just as fast - it'd just be more tiring.

In summary, if you can get over the idea that you 'need to anchor', then you have a spare digit that can be exclusively dedicated to muting low strings in an extremely low maintenance way. It literally just does the job without much work on your part, unlike having to move the thumb between strings as with the anchor/movable anchor technique.

[JTUK]

ok...never had a problem so don't need to fix it...

[mcgraham]

Well indeed! I only changed because I started to encounter things I couldn't play due to the fundamental nature of my technique, so I modified my technique. If there's no problem, there's nothing to fix

Mark

[Doddy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='692459' date='Dec 23 2009, 05:29 PM']If you play 6 string it's almost essential to avoid the big old B rumbling whenever you play higher up on the neck [/quote]

I disagree.. I've played a 6 string for years and never had to use the floating thumb technique to
cure any ringing strings.

As far as muting and damping technique goes-for me it is a combination of both hands. I explained it,
basically,over on the 'string skipping and muting' thread.

[XB26354]

[quote name='Doddy' post='693032' date='Dec 24 2009, 03:41 PM']I disagree.. I've played a 6 string for years and never had to use the floating thumb technique to
cure any ringing strings.

As far as muting and damping technique goes-for me it is a combination of both hands. I explained it,
basically,over on the 'string skipping and muting' thread.[/quote]

But that's the point - it's all down to what works for [i]you[/i]. It's not good general advice. I tried the Gary Willis 3 finger thing but couldn't get on with it, same with the non-rest stroke floating technique. The point is to look at making the right sound as efficiently and easily as possible so you can play freely for extended periods, regardless what traditional technique may be. 6-string (and above) are exceptional instruments because of the width of the plucking area. Logic dictates that you have to pay more attention to damping. I've seen and heard a number of 6-string bass players say they've got damping sorted and when it comes to the crunch and their playing is exposed, they haven't. I respect your point of view, but I trust my experiences with bass as a player, teacher and engineer in a studio more.

[Doddy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='693071' date='Dec 24 2009, 04:59 PM']But that's the point - it's all down to what works for [i]you[/i]. It's not good general advice. I tried the Gary Willis 3 finger thing but couldn't get on with it, same with the non-rest stroke floating technique. The point is to look at making the right sound as efficiently and easily as possible so you can play freely for extended periods, regardless what traditional technique may be. 6-string (and above) are exceptional instruments because of the width of the plucking area. Logic dictates that you have to pay more attention to damping. I've seen and heard a number of 6-string bass players say they've got damping sorted and when it comes to the crunch and their playing is exposed, they haven't. I respect your point of view, but I trust my experiences with bass as a player, teacher and engineer in a studio more.[/quote]

That's cool-I appreciate what you are saying. My only disagreement,was when you said that it was 'almost essential' to use the
floating technique when playing a six string. I don't believe that it is essential to employ the floating thumb when playing on an
extended range instrument.
I have always used my thumb as a movable anchor,which allows me to totally dampen the lower strings with the side of my thumb,
and I even use my little and ring fingers to damp strings on occassion,in a similar fashion to the way John Pattitucci does.
I'm glad that you trust your own experiences-you have to-,but I also trust mine as both a professional player and teacher.

[XB26354]

I know where you're coming from. I think we both agree that with such a wide neck, if you don't stop the strings from ringing somehow, then you will get that rumble. Play a B or F♯ high up on the neck a few times with no dampening, then stop the high notes. You will hear the low B sympathetically rumbling (just like piano strings).

The only reason floating thumb crops up because
a/ the hand is totally relaxed, making it easier to play evenly, cleanly and over extended periods and
b/ it's "free of charge", in that it is just there dampening the strings without having to move independently or take away from what the rest of the plucking hand is doing.

Point (a) is really important because it is oh so easy to tense the plucking hand. Sound wise It's not really noticeable when one is playing but it tends to make the overall bass sound muddy and undefined. I've recorded a few bands in my time in studios and it was a common problem with a 5- or 6-string bassist. When you lay a bass track down onto tape (or hard disk!) and solo it at the desk, every little hesitation and string noise or unintentional sympathetic strings really jump out, and can actually make a professional mix harder to achieve (when time is money). Years ago I got shown the door in a professional recording session because I couldn't dampen the strings (and I made damn sure I went away and sorted it out).

I liken anchoring the strings to a pick player resting a finger on the pickguard. It helps to balance your plucking hand but ultimately restricts how far you can take technique - which is academic if you plonk along with root-5 half notes all night

[XB26354]

[quote name='Doddy' post='693089' date='Dec 24 2009, 05:40 PM']My only disagreement,was when you said that it was 'almost essential' to use the
floating technique when playing a six string. I don't believe that it is essential to employ the floating thumb when playing on an
extended range instrument.[/quote]

Ah, a bit of a mis-quote (or my convoluted prose) - I said it is almost essential to avoid the B string rumbling, whichever method you choose.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='Doddy' post='693089' date='Dec 24 2009, 05:40 PM']That's cool-I appreciate what you are saying. My only disagreement,was when you said that it was 'almost essential' to use the
floating technique when playing a six string. I don't believe that it is essential to employ the floating thumb when playing on an
extended range instrument.
I have always used my thumb as a movable anchor,which allows me to totally dampen the lower strings with the side of my thumb,
and I even use my little and ring fingers to damp strings on occasion,in a similar fashion to the way John Pattitucci does.
I'm glad that you trust your own experiences-you have to-,but I also trust mine as both a professional player and teacher.[/quote]

I think you've probably got a similar 6 string playing style to me with the 'movable anchor'. I tend to stop any unwanted sypathetic string vibration with my left hand.

I do use the 'floating thumb' too, it kind of depends on what I'm playing.

I also have a couple of hair bands over the strings too, just past the nut (cheating I know ).

[iamthewalrus]

Just to update everyone on my progress....

I ran through some scale & triad exercises which seemed to go ok - I also managed to get a bit of a sore shoulder as you have to avoid the wrist bend (as mentioned in TJ's video). I'm hoping this (as per TJ's video) will soon pass....

Cheers,
iamthewalrus

[mcgraham]

[quote]I also have a couple of hair bands over the strings too, just past the nut (cheating I know )[/quote]

*shocking*

Just kidding. I was thinking about this the other day, as in 'cheating' using things like ramps, hairbands, low action, light strings, light touch, etc. I used to think stuff like that was 'cheating', but I really don't think that sort of thing is cheating when it comes to making music. For example, cars nowadays have traction control, satnav, switchable 2/4 wheel drive etc, but you wouldn't call Jensen Button or guys like that any less of a driver because they utilise the latest technology in their cars to improve/contribute towards their driving. Ultimately, these are just tools that are a means to an end. The car doesn't drive itself, nor does the instrument play itself - all the other things we add (like ramps, low action etc) is just to make it as easy as possible to play what we want to hear. How can that really be considered cheating?