Theory

[Pete Academy]

We are currently learning some new(ish) songs for a revamped 2010 set. One of the songs requires us to transpose a song into the key of D to suit one of the female singers. The first chord is Dm7. I rang our keyboard player and asked him why we needed to transpose, when the key is already D. He said the first chord doesn't matter, as the song is in C, so I need to go up a tone. Cue embarrassment.

I've realised that I'm absolutely clueless about theory, and always have been. I can groove well and have a good ear. In the 80s and 90s I composed and recorded a great deal of my own (mainly) jazz/funk/soul music. I programmed drum machines and played fairly complex chords on my Casio Midi guitar, but hadn't got a clue what I was doing theoretically. The chords just sounded 'right'.

I just know if it sounds and feels OK, that's all.

I can't solo over jazz chord changes, but what the hell? I'm the bass player.

Does anyone else share this attitude?

Edited December 31, 2009 by Pete Academy

[wateroftyne]

Yep.. me.

If I were you, I'd crack open the popcorn and wait for the fun to start...

[Conan]

Sounded like you were describing me! Except the drum machine bit, I never could get the hang of those things...

I know Einstein's theory and Darwin's theory, so I think I'm doing pretty well don't you?!

I sometimes think that if you know too much about what you're doing, the spontaneity will go - but of course I could just be saying that to make myself feel better about the fact that I know NOWT about music theory!!

[Pete Academy]

I always think that, judging by the material I play, people expect me to be a jazz/theory monster, but I always maintain that anyone can learn songs by rote, but it's the groove and feel that count.

I know Jake has played the Dan's material with Bryan on drums (H Gang), and he's a theory master.

What do you think, Jake?

[Cat Burrito]

My theory is enough to get by but certainly has gaps. I wouldn't know how to play over a jazz progression either to be fair. I'd like to improve on my theory but each teacher I've been to has thought my knowledge was fine - it isn't!

[donut]

You sound like the complete opposite to me. I've been playing bass for around 9 years now, I don't have a musical ear and very little talent but I get by on knowing a bit of theory, having a good memory and diverting attention towards my pedalboard and away from me.

I've always had to partially rely on other, more musical band members to tell me if something sounds awful because at times I simply cannot tell.

So as long as I don't need musical talent you don't need to know theory. It would probably help and I would much rather be in your position but it's not vital. IMO.

[oldslapper]

Pete you are a darn fine player having checked out your vids, and SD bass lines require good feel/timing/technique which you have a'plenty.
I have known plenty of fantastic players who don't have a clue why what they do "works ,it just does.
I was in the same camp up until about 3 years ago, when someone gave me simple some pointers on "intervals/diatonic charts/scale structure".
And I have to say that even some basic theory knowledge opened up my playing, it was a bit like a door opening to a new world (sounds a bit poncy, but only way to describe it) and things started to make sense. I now know why what I do sounds the way it does and I'm able to articulate on a different level with other musicians, particularly in new situations.
Certainly gave me confidence to go out and start playing again after a 15 year break.
I'm 48, not a 19 year old just starting out, and wish now I had taken this stuff on board years ago. I think I'd have been a more confident musician.
But look, if you don't feel you need to know theory, then don't worry about it...you're obviously doing ok without it. You're in a working band, and well respected as a player from what I see on this forum.
Happy new year,
John

[FuNkShUi]

You can be a great player without theory for sure. But if you are, learning a bit of theory will definitly make you even better. IMO anyway. Definitly "opened doors" for me

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='697388' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:01 PM']Pete you are a darn fine player having checked out your vids, and SD bass lines require good feel/timing/technique which you have a'plenty.
I have known plenty of fantastic players who don't have a clue why what they do "works ,it just does.
I was in the same camp up until about 3 years ago, when someone gave me simple some pointers on "intervals/diatonic charts/scale structure".
And I have to say that even some basic theory knowledge opened up my playing, it was a bit like a door opening to a new world (sounds a bit poncy, but only way to describe it) and things started to make sense. I now know why what I do sounds the way it does and I'm able to articulate on a different level with other musicians, particularly in new situations.
Certainly gave me confidence to go out and start playing again after a 15 year break.
I'm 48, not a 19 year old just starting out, and wish now I had taken this stuff on board years ago. I think I'd have been a more confident musician.
But look, if you don't feel you need to know theory, then don't worry about it...you're obviously doing ok without it. You're in a working band, and well respected as a player from what I see on this forum.
Happy new year,
John[/quote]

Cheers mate! I was just wondering if other players feel a bit daunted by a lack of theory. I believe Jimi knew nothing, and the chords he played were made up by himself. It was then up to future transcribers to fathom out what he was actually doing, especially for printed music.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' post='697389' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:02 PM']You can be a great player without theory for sure. But if you are, learning a bit of theory will definitly make you even better. IMO anyway. Definitly "opened doors" for me[/quote]

That was the main point of the post. I know I've missed out, especially on getting more work, but considering the music I really like - which is funk-based - has a grasp of the groove been more important?

[steve-soar]

Pete, you're in one of the best Dan tributes on the planet, don't stress too much, however, learning some theory is worth its weight in gold for that "when the penny drops moment" and it all starts to make sense.

[Pete Academy]

I'm not really stressing. I've gone 35 years without knowing a shred of theory. I'm just curious as to how many other bass players have survived without this knowledge.

[quote name='steve-soar' post='697428' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:27 PM']Pete, you're in one of the best Dan tributes on the planet, don't stress too much, however, learning some theory is worth its weight in gold for that "when the penny drops moment" and it all starts to make sense. [/quote]

[urb]

To be honest theory knowledge is only as good what you can apply on a gig/session etc in real time, "knowing more than you can show" is a bit of shame really as the whole point of learning and extending your knowledge is to be able to do this as a player... so if you can't back it up by writing down everything down and examining it under a microscope then perhaps you don't know the stuff as thoroughly as some, but can play like a well rounded bassist then well, job done... it all depends on where you want your playing to go, and what you want to do as a musician: learning how to be a bebop monster when you play funk and rock isn't necessarily a smart move, but then knowing more is better than knowing less IMO, and ultimately gives you many more options as a musician, and potentially more gigs!

Just my thoughts on the subject, my theory is a lot better than it used to be but using my ear and playing with a good feel/groove are still as important on a gig, and thinking is the last thing I want to do when I'm in the midst of a kicking gig.

M

[oldslapper]

Oh yeah, I can definately relate to the intimidated by theory and those who are good !theorists!
My fear was that theory would make me too "academic" and I'd lose the fun/spontaneity in my playing, particularly as I love a good funk/soul groove...just sitting in the pocket...etc.
But actually my spontanious playing is so much more fun now, I try things now that I wouldn't have 12 months ago.

To be honest, someone with your experience would probably find it easy to go through some basics and will come to the conclusion that it's easier than you first thought. Could always ask the keyboard player to give some pointers?

...by the way I've now transfered my insecurity to being intimidated by peoples expensive gear!!
Totally intimadated by your basses!!...sod the theory

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='urb' post='697436' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:34 PM']To be honest theory knowledge is only as good what you can apply on a gig/session etc in real time, "knowing more than you can show" is a bit of shame really as the whole point of learning and extending your knowledge is to be able to do this as a player... so if you can't back it up by writing down everything down and examining it under a microscope then perhaps you don't know the stuff as thoroughly as some, but can play like a well rounded bassist then well, job done... it all depends on where you want your playing to go, and what you want to do as a musician: learning how to be a bebop monster when you play funk and rock isn't necessarily a smart move, but then knowing more is better than knowing less IMO, and ultimately gives you many more options as a musician, and potentially more gigs!

Just my thoughts on the subject, my theory is a lot better than it used to be but using my ear and playing with a good feel/groove are still as important on a gig, and thinking is the last thing I want to do when I'm in the midst of a kicking gig.

M[/quote]

Good post.

[Eight]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='697354' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:23 PM']Cue embarrassment.[/quote]
If it were me, and I felt embarrassed by a lack of knowledge, then I'd try to fix it.

Are you now trying to talk yourself out of that feeling so that next time it happens you don't care? It's more important to really understand your own feelings than what we all think. Why were you embarrassed?

[wateroftyne]

The exact same thing has happened to me on a number of occasions.. the resultant embarassment wasn't fatal.

Edited December 31, 2009 by wateroftyne

[thepurpleblob]

I bet you know lots of theory. You just don't know you know. It can be quite hard sometimes spotting the tonal centre of a song - especially if it isn't the first chord and even more so if it's jazzy stuff like Becker and Fagan trip out. I wouldn't feel embarrassed; there's quite a few songs I play where I wouldn't swear to knowing what key it was.

I've studied the theory I have done for the most part because I think it's interesting. It's also bailed me out a few times when my crappy ear has failed me.

Edited December 31, 2009 by thepurpleblob

[Pete Academy]

Dunno really. I think it's about the material we cover. I use dto teach people but gave it up because I felt I should know more theory.

The whole post is really about not knowing theory but making a good career out this, nevertheless.

[quote name='Eight' post='697486' date='Dec 31 2009, 07:17 PM']If it were me, and I felt embarrassed by a lack of knowledge, then I'd try to fix it.

Are you now trying to talk yourself out of that feeling so that next time it happens you don't care? It's more important to really understand your own feelings than what we all think. Why were you embarrassed?[/quote]

[mrcrow]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='697354' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:23 PM']We are currently learning some new(ish) songs for a revamped 2010 set. One of the songs requires us to transpose a song into the key of D to suit one of the female singers. The first chord is Dm7. I rang our keyboard player and asked him why we needed to transpose, when the key is already D. He said the first chord doesn't matter, as the song is in C, so I need to go up a tone. Cue embarrassment.

I've realised that I'm absolutely clueless about theory, and always have been. I can groove well and have a good ear. In the 80s and 90s I composed and recorded a great deal of my own (mainly) jazz/funk/soul music. I programmed drum machines and played fairly complex chords on my Casio Midi guitar, but hadn't got a clue what I was doing theoretically. The chords just sounded 'right'.

I just know if it sounds and feels OK, that's all.

I can't solo over jazz chord changes, but what the hell? I'm the bass player.

Does anyone else share this attitude?[/quote]

jazz songs sometime start on the IIm7...so its in C
the relevant start chord will be Em7 for the key of D major

i am not up in theory but if you know your scales..in this case D major...remember to keep to the key signature ## in any of your basslines...F# and C#...

soloing over a tune on bass can be fun...wrong notes can sound right since you arent playing full chords...

if you have a good ear just try to back up the melody line here and there and where there are breaks and fills pentatonic riffs are quite acceptable with some passing notes

i couldnt begin to explain how i choose what to play in theory...just try to get laid back
remember the bass will be mainly putting in rhythm so harmony isnt being listened for

ps jot down the new chords for backup

Edited December 31, 2009 by mrcrow

[geoffbyrne]

You can play perfectly well not knowing any theory providing you have a good ear......but......

When I was learning about photography, a Sage told me-

'You only need a good eye to take a good photo, but if you understand why it all works that way, you'll get a hell of a lot more out of it!'

I would think that applies to most things.

Geoff

Edited December 31, 2009 by geoffbyrne

[thunderbird13]

I spent a lot of time studing theory and I dont think it really helped me much as I only play covers I think that in retrospect my time would have been better spent on ear training and learning loads of songs. If theory is an issue for you why dont you learn the basics of major scale theory its not really difficult to understand ,as an intellectual concept anyway , and it wont take you long to learn.

[purpleblob]

Interesting discussion. Your initial comment regarding thinking the tune was in D is one I've heard a lot from people, even those that suggest they know their theory, i.e. it's starts with an A chord therefore it's in the key of A. There's certainly nothing to be embarrased about unless you're about to do some music exam

At the end of the day it's what you play that matters, if you've got good ears and good technique then frankly knowing theory isn't really that big a deal. Obviously understanding scales, modes, chords etc. can be interesting and might help you become a better musician, on the other hand it might not - but the ear and technique are easily (imo) more important.

I cannot recall where I first heard/read this, but I recall someone well known saying "learn all the theory you can and then when you're comfortable with it, throw it all away" (I paraphrashe I'm sure) and this can also be true. Sometimes you end up with people playing arps or scales in essence - but without feel/groove or thought, just because they "know the theory".

But I would equally say there's nothing wrong with trying to extend one's knowledge by learning the theory

EDIT: I need a grammar checker.

Edited January 1, 2010 by purpleblob

[SteveK]

[quote]when the key is already D. He said the first chord doesn't matter, as the song is in C, so I need to go up a tone. Cue embarrassment.[/quote]
[quote]I know I've missed out, especially on getting more work,[/quote]You yourself have quoted 2 very good reasons for learning (at least a bit of) theory.

[quote]I was just wondering if other players feel a bit daunted by a lack of theory. [b]I believe Jimi knew nothing,[/b][/quote]I assume that the above quote implies, "If Jimi can do it, so can I". This is a common but dangerous attitude for a musician. Most non-theorists will reel off names of great musicians who don't/didn't know any theory to justify their stance. Don't assume that you are one of these geniuses...the chances are that you aren't.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='SteveK' post='697876' date='Jan 1 2010, 12:43 PM']You yourself have quoted 2 very good reasons for learning (at least a bit of) theory.

I assume that the above quote implies, "If Jimi can do it, so can I". This is a common but dangerous attitude for a musician. Most non-theorists will reel off names of great musicians who don't/didn't know any theory to justify their stance. Don't assume that you are one of these geniuses...the chances are that you aren't.[/quote]

Good post.