Theory

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='697388' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:01 PM']Pete you are a darn fine player having checked out your vids, and SD bass lines require good feel/timing/technique which you have a'plenty.
I have known plenty of fantastic players who don't have a clue why what they do "works ,it just does.
I was in the same camp up until about 3 years ago, when someone gave me simple some pointers on "intervals/diatonic charts/scale structure".
And I have to say that even some basic theory knowledge opened up my playing, it was a bit like a door opening to a new world (sounds a bit poncy, but only way to describe it) and things started to make sense. I now know why what I do sounds the way it does and I'm able to articulate on a different level with other musicians, particularly in new situations.
Certainly gave me confidence to go out and start playing again after a 15 year break.
I'm 48, not a 19 year old just starting out, and wish now I had taken this stuff on board years ago. I think I'd have been a more confident musician.
But look, if you don't feel you need to know theory, then don't worry about it...you're obviously doing ok without it. You're in a working band, and well respected as a player from what I see on this forum.
Happy new year,
John[/quote]
+1

That's pretty much my situation too..

I don't think there's any amount of theory that can teach you to how to 'feel' and understand music, nor how to play well with other musicians in a working band situation..or how to know how to play in a way that is best for the song. IMO, that comes with experience and also depends on whatever talents you were born with.

Having said that, I've found that my lack of a better understanding of musical theory has definitely hindered my personal progress as a musician and may have led to me achieving less as a working bass player. And it's also been quite frustrating knowing there's more out there to learn in terms of what I call 'musical vocabulary'.. I can only describe how it feels to me as a player whereby, over the last 30 years or so, it's like I've been trying to speak English but have only had a quarter of the words in the dictionary at my disposal..if that makes any sense?

This year I already decided that I'm going to have some lessons to change that, and I can't wait!

Going back to the OP, I don't think it matters if you're 'pretty clueless' as far as theory is concerned, provided that you are happy with what you're doing as a bass player.. If you're not though, then maybe it's best to do something about it!

[Kev]

OMGZ you ab0lutl3y mus1!!!!! Cant right musik wivout it!!!1!!

if you have a good pair of ears and know what sounds right, why should theory matter? i know nothing, and i think im pretty good as i am

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Kev' post='697955' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:06 PM']OMGZ you ab0lutl3y mus1!!!!! Cant right musik wivout it!!!1!!

if you have a good pair of ears and know what sounds right, why should theory matter? i know nothing, and i think im pretty good as i am [/quote]

+1
Ears are the most important part of any musician, IMHO.

All I'm saying is even a little understanding helped me from staying "as good as I am", to being a better player.

I also play golf and someone told me I was a "natural" when I started and I got by. But when I had lessons and started to understand the theory behind what happens when I swing, etc, I played better. My "natural" ability wasn't lost, it was enhanced.
I'm still crap, just mildly less crap and know why I'm crap and what I need to do to improve!
Theory enhances natural ability I think??

[ZMech]

the justification of 'you can play fine without theory' is all very well, but what's to say that you wouldn't play that bit better with some knowledge? At the least it can't exactly make your playing worse, so what have you got to lose, except time, by learning basic theory?

[Kev]

[quote name='Zach' post='697976' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:36 PM']the justification of 'you can play fine without theory' is all very well, but what's to say that you wouldn't play that bit better with some knowledge? At the least it can't exactly make your playing worse, so what have you got to lose, except time, by learning basic theory?[/quote]
ever considered the viewpoint that knowing theory may well cloud your judgement, cause you to overthink things and base your lines on what your told sounds right, rather than what your ears thinks sounds right?

[maxrossell]

When taking to musicians about potentially working together I literally never ask them if they know any theory. I don't know many people who do. That's possibly because in the alternative music community people who are self-taught and know relatively little theory far outnumber those who can read music, but also because some of the best musicians I've ever worked with wouldn't have known a minor 7th if it walked up and smacked them in the face.

I've picked up quite a lot of theory over the years, enough to build chords and scales and identify keys and all that guff, but they've only actually helped me to communicate with people who also knew that stuff. They haven't improved my playing, and they're all but pointless when I'm talking to most of the people I regularly make music with. If I didn't know any at all, I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[chardbass]

There are people who are theory-led, playing music which almost bypasses their ear. "I can play this scale over these changes and then this shape over that bit" (I have played with these guys), and there are those who have no, or little knowledge, of theory whose ears and feel are incredible (also encountered these guys)

The realistic ideal situation is somewhere between the two (the absolute ideal is having both traits down 100%)

Its like the reader vs non-reader debate.

"I can't read but I can pick up stuff really quickly and I'm a great busker."

Well how about a great busker who can pick up stuff easily but who can read great too?

It's all gravy.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Kev' post='697980' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:41 PM']ever considered the viewpoint that knowing theory may well cloud your judgement, cause you to overthink things and base your lines on what your told sounds right, rather than what your ears thinks sounds right?[/quote]

That's just silly. The first thing you learn (well maybe the second or third) is that many aspects of music are either very difficult to explain without recourse to extremely nasty theory or *just are*. What sounds good must always be the ruling factor no matter what depth of theoretical knowledge.

[SteveK]

[quote]ever considered the viewpoint that knowing theory may well cloud your judgement, cause you to overthink things and base your lines on what your told sounds right, rather than what your ears thinks sounds right?[/quote]
OK, I'm going to make a wild guess, your music theory is, at best, limited?

Not sure what you mean by "what you're told sounds right". By knowing a bit of theory doesn't mean that your natural feel/ability goes out of the window. You don't forsake one for the other.

[Pete Academy]

Whenever someone is giving me chords to play, I always say, 'Just give me the root notes.' When the song is playing, even if I haven't heard it before, I can usually guess what notes to play within the chord by listening.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Kev' post='697980' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:41 PM']ever considered the viewpoint that knowing theory may well cloud your judgement, cause you to overthink things and base your lines on what your told sounds right, rather than what your ears thinks sounds right?[/quote]

I've never considered that view point because it's bullshit.

The way I always look at it is I have never once heard anyone complain that they [u]know[/u] how to do
something.
I've got pretty decent ears,and can busk well,but knowing what I'm doing makes it a hell of a lot easier to work out
what's happening. You say that you think you are 'pretty good' as you are-that's great,but why would you choose to limit yourself
by ignoring something that would improve your understanding of music?

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698105' date='Jan 1 2010, 04:55 PM']Whenever someone is giving me chords to play, I always say, 'Just give me the root notes.' When the song is playing, even if I haven't heard it before, I can usually guess what notes to play within the chord by listening.[/quote]

I hate just being told the roots. I want to know what the chord is-I don't want to play a b7 over a major 7 chord,it'll just sound bad,and
knowing what is going on will eliminate any guess work and allow me to just play.

[Doddy]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='697874' date='Jan 1 2010, 12:40 PM']I cannot recall where I first heard/read this, but I recall someone well known saying "learn all the theory you can and then when you're comfortable with it, throw it all away" (I paraphrashe I'm sure) and this can also be true.[/quote]

I wouldn't exactly put it like that.
For me,everything that you study should be put to one side when you are performing,and eventually it will
begin to become part of your vocabulary and will naturally come out in your playing. The trick is
knowing it well enough to not have to think about it.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698105' date='Jan 1 2010, 04:55 PM']Whenever someone is giving me chords to play, I always say, 'Just give me the root notes.' When the song is playing, even if I haven't heard it before, I can usually guess what notes to play within the chord by listening.[/quote]
Why merely 'guess' when you can have knowledge in advance? And if you are going to guess why not guess the root notes too? And if you know what a root note is then you already know some theory.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698122' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:09 PM']I've never considered that view point because it's bullshit.

The way I always look at it is I have never once heard anyone complain that they [u]know[/u] how to do
something.
I've got pretty decent ears,and can busk well,but knowing what I'm doing makes it a hell of a lot easier to work out
what's happening. You say that you think you are 'pretty good' as you are-that's great,but why would you choose to limit yourself
by ignoring something that would improve your understanding of music?



I hate just being told the roots. I want to know what the chord is-I don't want to play a b7 over a major 7 chord,it'll just sound bad,and
knowing what is going on will eliminate any guess work and allow me to just play.[/quote]

Yeah, but you are a 'proper' musician.

[TimR]

I would hazard a guess you know more theory than you think you do.
You know the names of the notes. I've played with people who only go by fret and string numbers.
You probably even know where most/all of those notes are on the fretboard.
You know that there is a difference between a major and minor, and I would guess you know what the difference is. I've played with guitarists who only play major chords and had to look up a minor one in their chord chart, let alone anything else.

If you know what notes are in a Dm7 you're even further down the road.

[Marvin]

[quote]Well, until I was 12 or so, I learned the scales, and played Beethoven and Mozart like a parrot, with all the passion of a typist. It all seemed like extra homework at the time, but I have since come to appreciate all the theory that was drilled into me, and the understanding of how all music, all chords, all keys are related, and once I reached the stage where I found music a means for expression, having all that experience behind me, made things a lot easier. [b]I've worked with several great artists, who, without that basic foundation, have had a very tough time simply expressing themselves.
[/b][/quote]

That's from Andy Fraser's website. And I've got to say, as someone (i.e me, not Andy Fraser) who knows little theory, I can't argue with that last sentence.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698122' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:09 PM']I hate just being told the roots. I want to know what the chord is-I don't want to play a b7 over a major 7 chord,it'll just sound bad,and
knowing what is going on will eliminate any guess work and allow me to just play.[/quote]

I nearly took a blunt instrument to a drummer's head trying to explain that. "Well it's just a chord just play the note on your fretboard thing" he said.
What a ........

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='TimR' post='698169' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:49 PM']I would hazard a guess you know more theory than you think you do.
You know the names of the notes. I've played with people who only go by fret and string numbers.
You probably even know where most/all of those notes are on the fretboard.
You know that there is a difference between a major and minor, and I would guess you know what the difference is. I've played with guitarists who only play major chords and had to look up a minor one in their chord chart, let alone anything else.

If you know what notes are in a Dm7 you're even further down the road.[/quote]

Yep...spot on.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698127' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:15 PM']I wouldn't exactly put it like that.
For me,everything that you study should be put to one side when you are performing,and eventually it will
begin to become part of your vocabulary and will naturally come out in your playing. The trick is
knowing it well enough to not have to think about it.[/quote]

And you're from Leek.

[Pete Academy]

Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?

Edited January 1, 2010 by Pete Academy

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote]
Yes, but the patterns can also be called scales.

[TimR]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote]

I used to do this and have been trying to get away from it. You can try to move away from it by thinking in intervals and 'hearing' these intervals and learning what they are called. ie one fret jump is minor 2nd, 3 frets is minor 3rd, learn others as you jump across strings etc.

Edited January 1, 2010 by TimR

[Pete Academy]

Ever since I started playing, which was about 14, I just played along to records constantly (LPs in those days). A few years into my playing I decided to have a couple of lessons, so that I could learn theory and some jazz. The first lesson was a disaster. I was playing my '83 Steinberger in those days, and the teacher looked at it and started to criticise it, saying it wasn't a real instrument. Then he said there was no need to play anything beyond the fifth fret, as every note is there. So I thought, why not just play a bass with 5 frets? He then sent me home with the cycle of fifths, without ever explaining what they meant.

I ended up badmouthing him in the shop I was working in, and someone he was teaching happened to be there and overheard this. A couple of days later I get a call from the teacher, telling me never to contact him again.

So there we have it: my one and only stab at learning theory and jazz.

By the way, he's named Tony Silver, and to this day we seriously hate each other.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='698188' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:04 PM']Yes, but the patterns can also be called scales.[/quote]

I know that, but that's just the way my brain retains the songs.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698202' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:13 PM']I know that, but that's just the way my brain retains the songs.[/quote]

I've actually heard it said.... and I think it's good advice... that when learning things like scales, intervals and arpeggios, always visualize them in terms of patterns on the instrument.