Theory

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698200' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:12 PM']Ever since I started playing, which was about 14, I just played along to records constantly (LPs in those days). A few years into my playing I decided to have a couple of lessons, so that I could learn theory and some jazz. The first lesson was a disaster. I was playing my '83 Steinberger in those days, and the teacher looked at it and started to criticise it, saying it wasn't a real instrument. Then he said there was no need to play anything beyond the fifth fret, as every note is there. So I thought, why not just play a bass with 5 frets? He then sent me home with the cycle of fifths, without ever explaining what they meant.

I ended up badmouthing him in the shop I was working in, and someone he was teaching happened to be there and overheard this. A couple of days later I get a call from the teacher, telling me never to contact him again.

So there we have it: my one and only stab at learning theory and jazz.

By the way, he's named Tony Silver, and to this day we seriously hate each other.[/quote]

Sorry to digress here, but a few years ago I was browsing a market in Newcastle-under-Lyme, when I came across a stall selling musical instruments. On there was an acoustic bass for a hundred quid. It looked pretty good except the neck was seriously bent. You could have driven a bus under the strings. I pointed this out to the lady at the stall, and then I suddenly heard a voice say: 'It's a bloody bass, they're supposed to be like that!' Ah, my old nemesis.

Last I heard from the old buffoon.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698127' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:15 PM']I wouldn't exactly put it like that.
For me,everything that you study should be put to one side when you are performing,and eventually it will
begin to become part of your vocabulary and will naturally come out in your playing. The trick is
knowing it well enough to not have to think about it.[/quote]

I believe that's the essence of the quote - the key thing is that people can get hung up on theory and forget to listen to what they're playing.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote]
I do that and hate myself for it.
I'd much rather know what it is I'm actually playing or giving a bassline to.

[SteveK]

[quote]I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.[/quote]
If I understand correctly...it sounds like you are seriously restricting yourself. ie, confining yourself to that "grid".

[quote]A couple of days later I get a call from the teacher, telling me never to contact him again.[/quote]
Result!

[oldslapper]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='698211' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:19 PM']I've actually heard it said.... and I think it's good advice... that when learning things like scales, intervals and arpeggios, always visualize them in terms of patterns on the instrument.[/quote]
+1
I often think of arpegios in terms of shapes, nothing wrong with that.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote]

It's certainly a natural way to view a bass being that ultimately the grid on a bass (the fretboard) is itself a repeating pattern. Obviously music can be described mathematically and thus intervals or grid like patterns work fine on something like a bass. Whether it's right or wrong - it's certainly not for me to say. As I'm pretty mathematical and never had or wanted formal training, I do tend to see patterns better than I see notes (if that makes sense) but as long as the patterns do not take precedence over what you hear or feel, then personally it's what ever makes it work for you (is my opinion)

EDIT: Smiley wasn't showing

Edited January 1, 2010 by purpleblob

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='698230' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:38 PM']It's certainly a natural way to view a bass being that ultimately the grid on a bass (the fretboard) is itself a repeating pattern. Obviously music can be described mathematically and thus intervals or grid like patterns work fine on something like a bass. Whether it's right or wrong - it's certainly not for me to say. As I'm pretty mathematical and never had or wanted formal training, I do tend to see patterns better than I see notes (if that makes sense) but as long as the patterns do not take precedence over what you hear or feel, then personally it's what ever makes it work for you (is my opinion)

EDIT: Smiley wasn't showing [/quote]

It's just the way my brain has worked for 35+ years.

[Pete Academy]

As we speak, I've just been going over 'Aja' and 'Babylon Sisters' for the new set. We haven't played these for at least two or three years, but I found myself settling into the songs again via the pattern memory thing.

It seems to work for me.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698200' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:12 PM']By the way, he's named Tony Silver, and to this day we seriously hate each other.[/quote]

He doesn't hate you anymore- he died a couple of years ago.

[ZMech]

and just think how much theory we could have all learnt in the time we've spent reading this thread!
perhaps my new years resolution should be to spend my time more productively...

Edit: [quote name='purpleblob' post='698230' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:38 PM']EDIT: Smiley wasn't showing [/quote]
oh no!

Edited January 1, 2010 by Zach

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns.

I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote]

I'm the total opposite I trained myself to think in terms of notes . I thought this was more "correct" to do until I had an audition last year and the guitarist changed the key just before we started playing, If I had just learnt patterns I would have been ok but instead I ended up trying to tranpose the notes and them play then. Suffice to say Iot totally lost and didnt get the gig

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698247' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:51 PM']He doesn't hate you anymore- he died a couple of years ago. [/quote]

God bless him.

[TimR]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='698250' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:53 PM']I'm the total opposite I trained myself to think in terms of notes . I thought this was more "correct" to do until I had an audition last year and the guitarist changed the key just before we started playing, If I had just learnt patterns I would have been ok but instead I ended up trying to tranpose the notes and them play then. Suffice to say Iot totally lost and didnt get the gig [/quote]

This is why you should be thinking in terms of intervals.

[grapevinebass]

Interesting thread so far. General conclusion seems to be that some knowledge of theory helps you as a bass player.

Now my son is looking at University courses in music. There are courses where you spend 3 years learning music theory!

So perhaps a better question is: 'what elements of the whole music language are most useful to a bass player'. Since I cannot spend 3 years learning music theory, what nuggets of theory are most needed for an average bassist?

Even better, are these nuggets collected together in any one book, or website?

Is a new thread called for, called 'Helpful Music Theory and Tips'?

[iconic]

I'm sure I read somewhere that some very, very talented musicians can't read music, let alone understand the theory.....Mark King comes to mind?

Surely, the music came first then the theory came along to makes sense of it, to enable a tune to be played by someone who had not previously heard the tune...or to confuse everyone

I think of it as I do a car....you can be a fantastic F1 driver without knowing diddly squat about chassis dynamics, air/fuel ratio's, camshaft timing overlap etc....you can drive it to the limit by 'natural talent' and that is something you can't be taught, you either have it or you don't......but if ya lacking in some 'natural talent' I'm sure some engineering knowledge can help?

.....without blowing down my own exhaust, I used to a very good cart driver and I'm a reasonable enduro rider, but with very little driving talent to be honest....I can overcome this by my knowledge of engineering to some extent.

Anyway music theory?.....I'm still struggling to learn the notes on my fretboard, god knows when I get will around to breaking down an Emadd9 chord?

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='grapevinebass' post='698629' date='Jan 2 2010, 11:45 AM']Interesting thread so far. General conclusion seems to be that some knowledge of theory helps you as a bass player.

Now my son is looking at University courses in music. There are courses where you spend 3 years learning music theory!

So perhaps a better question is: 'what elements of the whole music language are most useful to a bass player'. Since I cannot spend 3 years learning music theory, what nuggets of theory are most needed for an average bassist?

Even better, are these nuggets collected together in any one book, or website?

Is a new thread called for, called 'Helpful Music Theory and Tips'?[/quote]
Good idea, though the [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showforum=31"]Theory and Technique[/url] Forum itself is very useful as it is..

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='iconic' post='698636' date='Jan 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I'm sure I read somewhere that some very, very talented musicians can't read music, let alone understand the theory.....Mark King comes to mind?

Surely, the music came first then the theory came along to makes sense of it, to enable a tune to be played by someone who had not previously heard the tune...or to confuse everyone

I think of it as I do a car....you can be a fantastic F1 driver without knowing diddly squat about chassis dynamics, air/fuel ratio's, camshaft timing overlap etc....you can drive it to the limit by 'natural talent' and that is something you can't be taught, you either have it or you don't......but if ya lacking in some 'natural talent' I'm sure some engineering knowledge can help?

.....without blowing down my own exhaust, I used to a very good cart driver and I'm a reasonable enduro rider, but with very little driving talent to be honest....I can overcome this by my knowledge of engineering to some extent.

Anyway music theory?.....I'm still struggling to learn the notes on my fretboard, god knows when I get will around to breaking down an Emadd9 chord?[/quote]


Although your anaology of a racing car driver makes sense ,it was mentioned above that theory helps with communication. Imagine a scenario where Micheal Shumacher tests drives a car and finds that the gear slips when he goes from 3rd to 4th gear, if he knew how a car worked how much easier would it to be to explain to the technicians what the problem was rather then just saying it doesnt work properly.

I go back to my earlier comment that the basics of major scale theory are quite simple and anyone can grasp the basics of scales and chords. My suspicion is that its the way its taught and the terminology that is the problem . In your example a E Maj 9 is made up of the 1st, 3rd,5th ,7th and 9th degrees of the E major scale - thats it - not that difficult

[SteveK]

[quote]what nuggets of theory are most needed for an average bassist?[/quote]
For an [b][i]average[/i][/b] bassist?.. none! ..

For an [b][i]above[/i][/b] average bass player...

[quote]are these nuggets collected together in any one book, or website?[/quote]
As mentioned, you could start here in the "Theory & technique" forum. I'm sure there's plenty there to keep you going for quite some time.

[quote]I'm sure I read somewhere that some very, very talented musicians can't read music, let alone understand the theory.....Mark King comes to mind?[/quote]
Yes, and...what's your point?.. May I refer my fellow BCer to post No 24 of this thread.

[iconic]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='698655' date='Jan 2 2010, 12:26 PM']Although your anaology of a racing car driver makes sense ,it was mentioned above that theory helps with communication. Imagine a scenario where Micheal Shumacher tests drives a car and finds that the gear slips when he goes from 3rd to 4th gear, if he knew how a car worked how much easier would it to be to explain to the technicians what the problem was rather then just saying it doesnt work properly.


[b]exactly, sorry, something got lost in my explanation, a great talent and a working knowledege to communicate is hard to beat combo. [/b]


I go back to my earlier comment that the basics of major scale theory are quite simple and anyone can grasp the basics of scales and chords. My suspicion is that its the way its taught and the terminology that is the problem . In your example a E Maj 9 is made up of the 1st, 3rd,5th ,7th and 9th degrees of the E major scale - thats it - not that difficult

[b][b]Ya right again regarding how it's taught and the term', I had two piano teachers when I was young, one was a miserable old git who only played classical music when I had zero interest in it, and he poisoned my passion for leaning the theory.
The 2nd, well she was something out of an Ealing comedy, horn rimmed glasses, always drunk and thought Elvis was where music ended..."David Bowie, I even can't understand the the words, dear boy"

Also, for me music theory is just so very different from anything I have dealt with before...it's like learning a new langauge, possibly why so few can play well but get by on a real minimum of theory.

It's hard to teach well, I have had to do it in the past and even being paid very well to do it, always found it a chore. [/b]
b][/quote]

[iconic]

QUOTE
I'm sure I read somewhere that some very, very talented musicians can't read music, let alone understand the theory.....Mark King comes to mind?
Yes, and...what's your point?.. May I refer my fellow BCer to post No 24 of this thread.

simply that the exception proves the rule...I'm not being very clear today...

[Doddy]

[quote name='iconic' post='698636' date='Jan 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I'm sure I read somewhere that some very, very talented musicians can't read music, let alone understand the theory.....Mark King comes to mind?

(Edit)

Anyway music theory?.....I'm still struggling to learn the notes on my fretboard, god knows when I get will around to breaking down an Emadd9 chord?[/quote]


I've noticed that when people use the argument about good players who don't know any theory or anything they always
refer to guy's like Mark King,who are stylistic 'band' guys. These players are cool and everything-and are
successful-but they are not good examples in this kind of debate as they have found a very small niche and gained popularity within the
confines of one band. There are a ton of players who have made a good career out of being a pro musician-some very well
known,others not- without being in a popular band,and they generally have a decent idea about what they are doing. There are also a
load of players who have been in successful bands who have ended up leaving the business after their popularity waned and they didn't have
the knowledge or ability to diversify.

As far as learning notes on the 'board-I honestly feel that this is a majorly important thing and should be addressed very
early on in the learning process.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='698787' date='Jan 2 2010, 04:00 PM']I've noticed that when people use the argument about good players who don't know any theory or anything they always
refer to guy's like Mark King,who are stylistic 'band' guys. These players are cool and everything-and are
successful-but they are not good examples in this kind of debate as they have found a very small niche and gained popularity within the
confines of one band. There are a ton of players who have made a good career out of being a pro musician-some very well
known,others not- without being in a popular band,and they generally have a decent idea about what they are doing. There are also a
load of players who have been in successful bands who have ended up leaving the business after their popularity waned and they didn't have
the knowledge or ability to diversify.

As far as learning notes on the 'board-I honestly feel that this is a majorly important thing and should be addressed very
early on in the learning process.[/quote]

I know what the notes on the board are.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Pete Academy

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='Kev' post='697980' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:41 PM']ever considered the viewpoint that knowing theory may well cloud your judgement, cause you to overthink things and base your lines on what your told sounds right, rather than what your ears thinks sounds right?[/quote]

Does knowing too much English vocabulary inhibit your conversational skills or improve them ?

Music is a language like any other, learning the theory behind what you're playing [b]will only improve your playing[/b]. It will give you new ideas in what to play, and make your playing more fluid and confident.

I know loads of theory, I love learning about it and it really hasn't hampered me.

Comments like the one above are usually made by people who frankly can't be bothered to learn, it's just an excuse .

[Pete Academy]

I'm not sure if Louis Johnson can read, but he was hired by loads of major artists because of his style.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698826' date='Jan 2 2010, 04:47 PM']I know what the notes on the board are. [/quote]

I know you do- I was refering to Iconic's comment about struggling to learn the
notes on the 'board.