Theory

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='700269' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:26 AM']I am not going to say too much on this because I get irritated by anyone that advocates ignorance in favour of knowledge - it just doesn't compute.[/quote]

I think that's the most sensible thing anybody has said so far. To not have the time, the inclination, the interest to learn some theory are all reasonable excuses but to advocate that having knowledge is a bad thing is nuts.

[Sarah5string]

Knew where you're coming from. I've played for 8/9 years from ear and just worked out myself what sounded good. I am now, however, starting to learn theory in order for me to get out of a rut I'm in, and I want to do my grades. You don't need theory to be a good player, but as my tutor says, theory will just enhance your playing further.

[Rayman]

Does the fact that I've been teaching myself by ear alone for 30 years make me a bad musician?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='700495' date='Jan 4 2010, 02:36 PM']To not have the time, the inclination, the interest to learn some theory are all reasonable excuses but to advocate that having knowledge is a bad thing is nuts.[/quote]
Yip.. that's the situation I'm in, and I agree.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700670' date='Jan 4 2010, 05:21 PM']Does the fact that I've been teaching myself by ear alone for 30 years make me a bad musician?[/quote]

No it doesn't-but it does make you more limited than if you had studied some theory.

[Rayman]

Do you not feel that reading the dots makes you stay within the box rather than think outside of it with your own creativity?

[Doddy]

Not at all.
Knowing stuff has no bearing what so ever on your creativity.
What it does do is allow you to understand what you are doing,and it is
also the quickest way of communicating your idea's to other musicians.

[Marvin]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='700495' date='Jan 4 2010, 02:36 PM']I think that's the most sensible thing anybody has said so far. To not have the time, the inclination, the interest to learn some theory are all reasonable excuses but to advocate that having knowledge is a bad thing is nuts.[/quote]


[quote name='wateroftyne' post='700676' date='Jan 4 2010, 05:24 PM']Yip.. that's the situation I'm in, and I agree.[/quote]
I agree entirely.
To say that learning theory will inhibit your playing seems a truly bizarre thing to say.
Time is what hinders my learning theory, unfortunately. Which is why lessons are off the menu.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700695' date='Jan 4 2010, 05:35 PM']Do you not feel that reading the dots makes you stay within the box rather than think outside of it with your own creativity?[/quote]
No to both your questions.
But it strikes me that yours is a common refrain emanating from the camp of people who don't know that stuff. You generally don't hear the readers/theoreticians saying it's not possible to be a good player without theory, but you commonly hear the ear only players hint at some deficit in the mystical indefinable feel assertion that they assume readers have. I see beyond that and feel that that assertion is generally borne of insecurity and is actually attack in defence.
For the record From 8-22 I taught myself bass guitar from records and had some double bass lessons at school. From 22 I went to college, carried on the double bass and learned quite extensive theory and practical disciplines on both instruments. I have absolutely no deficit in my feel from being able to read and would stand up next to any uk bass player and hold my own in terms of just playing a bass part well (obviously there are some guys that do some things just way better than me). What I can do is perform an entire nights worth of music by reading and interpreting chord charts or dots. I'm not the worlds best dot reader but have done some pretty heavy duty reading in my career.
The main part of my learning has come through my ears the other stuff is added to that, not a detracting element.

Edited January 4, 2010 by jakesbass

[Rayman]

I'm just making the point, not arguing against learning the theory. I understand that theory would help me be a better bass player, but still, after all these years of being in bands, I have no desire to learn any.

[Clarky]

I would love to learn theory but have two major problems: the time to do so, and the fact that when I have tried to learn some theory in the past I have simply not 'got it'. I had double bass lessons form an old jazzer a few years back and to this day have no idea what the cycle of fifths is/does and remember scratching my head when my teacher used to say things like "you play a flattened sixth there" or "thats an eleventh". As far as i could tell (though I was too scared to say) every note in a scale is either a flattened, sharp or natural something-or-other and it seemed that there were no rules about which ones to play over any given chord. Clearly that last statement must be rubbish, as undoubtedly some note choices are atonal/dissonant/nasty, but thats how it felt.

Maybe a different teacher would have benefited me but I have this feeling that I will never get theory.

[TimR]

So if we agree that music is a language. Most of us can understand by listening and most of us can speak it. Some of us can read and write and get good jobs because of that. Some of us understand the rules of its grammar and can use that to create our own music, and get even better jobs.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700695' date='Jan 4 2010, 05:35 PM']Do you not feel that reading the dots makes you stay within the box rather than think outside of it with your own creativity?[/quote]

No not at all.
It totally depends on the gig. I can 'busk' along to chord charts or just follow what's being played by other musicians. I can sight read accurately and I do the occasional orchestra pit job. I love just improvising and even do so when I'm able to on a 'reading gig'.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='Toddy' post='700271' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:27 AM']I personally couldnt sit in an orchestra pit next week,, but that guy probably couldnt bounce around on stage at Butlins......[/quote]

Why couldn't he ?

I do theatre work and reading gigs, and I love to just improvise and groove with other players and move about on stage.

[Rayman]

I'm with Clarky, I don't have either the time or inclination to learn any theory at all. I too have tried in the past, but got frustrated and went back to my own way of doing things, maybe it's the punk in me.

It would be great if I could read I guess, but I can't, and frankly, I'm not bothered.

[Eight]

[quote name='Clarky' post='700737' date='Jan 4 2010, 06:07 PM']but I have this feeling that I will never get theory.[/quote]
I don't believe that for one second.

But I would say I've seen more bad resources for learning music theory than good ones. In fact, most of the books on the subject that I own would confuse classical musicians and are only any use to me now because way back as a kid I had an extremely good teacher who was not only able to explain the concepts, but also put an element of theory in context in terms of what I was playing.

Unfortunately I forgot it all since then and am having to try to relearn.

Reading standard notation on the other hand, is very easy to learn - a good set of books which build up in complexity and the ability to bare in mind that it will take a bit of practice, is all you really need. Not that I'm much good at sight-reading anymore... but that's for one simple reason. Lack of practice.

Edit: And as with every time this topic comes up, it's worth pointing out that theory and reading are two different things. Although obviously being able to read notation helps when studying music theory.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Eight

[Maverick]

As usual with these kinds of arguments, I think the truth is neither black nor white.

Theory is not useless, and when applied properly it shouldn't restrict creativity. However, nor is it the be all or end all of music.

'Theory', in music as in any other many other contexts, is not a set of hard and fast rules that must always be obeyed. It is, instead, a model of the way music works. It is a means to and end, a tool to expedite the creation and performance of music. It is not infallible - sometimes a musician's experience, judgement and (non-theoretical) knowledge will come up with something better than pure theory would suggest.

It's striking this balance that is important. Relying purely on one or the other will rarely produce good results.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Maverick

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700732' date='Jan 4 2010, 06:00 PM']I'm just making the point, not arguing against learning the theory. I understand that theory would help me be a better bass player, but still, after all these years of being in bands, I have no desire to learn any.[/quote]
Thats very different from suggesting that reading music renders you somehow deficient in ability to express creatively. And it's worth adding that if you don't read how could you possibly know whether or not that were true, you must by definition be guessing that that is the case as you have not been in the chair.
Don't take this the wrong way I don't seek to undermine you or your abilities personally at all, but I regard your argument as surmising and somewhat spurious, so in the interest of balance I have to point out what I see as argument with little evidence or reason.
I am well aware that there are some great musicians that are totally theoretically illiterate, it's just that that is no evidence for trying to do the same in the face of, lets face it, a likely lack of genius on the part of most that would hold that argument aloft.

Edited January 4, 2010 by jakesbass

[Rayman]

Of course, being a musical genius is a rare thing, and pretty much all of us on here could never qualify in that particular area, and I take no offence at all in anything you point out, we're just having a debate, and I must admit to be playing devil's advocate a little, but nevertheless, I still think there's an argument for those of us that [i]are[/i] theoretically illiterate, genius or not, that we have little or no need to understand theory to get as far as we want to go as musicians.

I'm not a pro, I'll never be a pro, and I'll never be in the position to have to read charts. I have however been in semi pro bands for years, and in one case had 10 days to learn a two hour set when depping for a band which I did no problem, by ear. Yes, I could have stood on stage, Thunderbird around my knees on stage with said metal band, with a stand and charts in front of me if I could read, but I'd have looked a total twit.

I'm perfectly at ease learning my way. I aint no Jaco, god I wish I was, but I'm too old to change my ways now. I'm off to learn a new song on my iPod for tomorrows rehearsal.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700869' date='Jan 4 2010, 07:58 PM']Of course, being a musical genius is a rare thing, and pretty much all of us on here could never qualify in that particular area, and I take no offence at all in anything you point out, we're just having a debate, and I must admit to be playing devil's advocate a little, but nevertheless, I still think there's an argument for those of us that [i]are[/i] theoretically illiterate, genius or not, that we have little or no need to understand theory to get as far as we want to go as musicians.[/quote]
Granted.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Rayman' post='700239' date='Jan 4 2010, 09:44 AM']I know no theory at all, none. I started playing bass in the early 80's and taught myself by playing along to the Stranglers at first, then onto Talking Heads etc, all learnt by ear. I'm now 44, and learn the sets for the band the same way, totally by ear, it's the only way I can do it, forget TABs, they mean nothing to me, let alone charts, but give me the song on an iPod to listen to, and I'll have it sussed in minutes (most of the time).

I see in the interview with Stuart Zender in the new BGM he says he sees shapes on the fretboard rather than notes.....well that's me exactly, I just remember the shapes on the board for each song, I really haven't a clue what notes I'm playing most of the time.[/quote]

I learn things by shapes, too.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='700254' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:09 AM']As I said in an earlier post, learning by ear should not be underestimated, it is after all the immediate connection to the music, whereas in the written form it is once removed.
Ultimately one is not better than the other but both will serve you well in many (especially pro) circumstances.
Pete I totally get that you love what you're doing and I can see that you have the ability to put some of yourself into the music (if you think about that, it's impossible not to)
the only point at which I disagree is your suggestion that you're too long in the tooth, never! What I think is important is that you are able to do the job and do it well, with or without theory and whether you were to expand your wider knowledge is a matter of pure choice.[/quote]

You're right...I'm probably just being a bit lazy.

[xilddx]

Yes, but can you hear what those shapes sound like within the context of a piece of music?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='700269' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:26 AM']I am not going to say too much on this because I get irritated by anyone that advocates ignorance in favour of knowledge - it just doesn't compute. For me, the theory allows you to be a musician and not just a bass player.

I love music more than almost anything and cannot get by without it. I love everything to do with it and have done since I was about 10. Why wouldn't I want to know theory? Why wouldn't I want to learn to read the dots? The only thing that stops me from spending every waking hour musiking is the fact that our society doesn't value it as much as I do so forces me to earn a living another way.

I have played Aja cold from a chart. I strongly suspect it wasn't as good as it would have been had the players involved rehearsed it for days but it hung together. Same with Fagen's 'The Goodbye Look'. I have played shows and big band gigs reading every note from a page and done whole gigs where I didn't know a single tune but busked the whole thing. You get the widest basket of skills you can to make you ready for the fray. It keeps you sharp.[/quote]

Good post.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Toddy' post='700271' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:27 AM']Hey Pete,,
I believe Im in much the same boat,,
I tried to learn theory early on in my playing career and never got round to using it really,,
99%of the time I get asked to learn a track, learn it by ear and remember the pattern on the fretboard,,However I am good enough to deal with the change the key situation and have no issues with busking or jamming along to any track..
If anything still isnt right it gets sorted out in rehearsal

Im trying to learn to read again but TBH in the last 20yrs Ive never been given sheet music to read and it wont happen with my current bands or when I get asked to guest in the studio.

I also play in a well known tribute and am passionate about doing justice to the songs, But in answer to your original question, suppose its what you need it for,, I personally couldnt sit in an orchestra pit next week,, but that guy probably couldnt bounce around on stage at Butlins......

Strangely a lot of my past playing buddies have gone into teaching music and music tech at colleges etc,but Im still the only one who brings home the bacon by actually playing live.

Saying that I am genuinely interested in learning more,,and considering how much time I spend on here these days,,, guess Im running out of excuses.... [/quote]

What tribute band do you play for?