Theory

[Bilbo]

I always told students 'if you haven't got that knot of frustration in your stomach when you are practising, you're probably not working on anything new'

[endorka]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='701824' date='Jan 5 2010, 04:28 PM']I always told students 'if you haven't got that knot of frustration in your stomach when you are practising, you're probably not working on anything new'[/quote]

Yup.

Someone was once speaking to me about visiting a music college, where he was amazed by the quality of music he heard being played when walking past the practice rooms. My opinion was that if they were practicing properly, they would not sound good, as they should be practicing things they can't play as opposed to things they can.

In saying that, it can sometimes be difficult to ascertain when it is appropriate to move on to the next exercise. Just exactly how well do you have to play it? I still often don't know the answer.

Jennifer

Edited January 5, 2010 by endorka

[SteveK]

[quote],Someone was once speaking to me about visiting a music college, where he was amazed by the quality of music he heard being played when walking past the practice rooms. My opinion was that if they were practicing properly, they would not sound good, as they should be practicing things they can't play as opposed to things they can.[/quote]
It may have sounded good to you, but possibly to the student and tutor there may have been vast room for improvement.

[Doddy]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='701824' date='Jan 5 2010, 04:28 PM']I always told students 'if you haven't got that knot of frustration in your stomach when you are practising, you're probably not working on anything new'[/quote]

Totally. If you are playing stuff you are already familiar with,you are rehearsing.
Practising,I feel, is working on new things that you cannot already play.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Doddy' post='701886' date='Jan 5 2010, 05:15 PM']Totally. If you are playing stuff you are already familiar with,you are rehearsing.
Practising,I feel, is working on new things that you cannot already play.[/quote]
I agree, my spin on that when teaching at Salford was to say to students if your head feels fuzzy and you're struggling to concentrate then you are learning. Get used to it it's a good feeling.

[jakenewmanbass]

Also, Jennifer made a very astute point earlier about the point at which a tutor is required. Theory books are not manuals, the reason being that music has many variables in it's expression and therefore in it's written form too. At the point you hit a crossroads is when you need someone at your side that can do 2 things 1. Know their stuff well enough to explain it clearly 2. Find the explanations that suit the student best. If I have tried to achieve anything as a teacher it is to attempt to develop an innate sense of which things mean something to the person I'm teaching. I can usually tell when it's not going through (I don't always get it right of course)
Also theory should not be exclusive of sound because that is the main reference point, which is why I'm cautious about trying to explain things in general conversation here. I will answer specific queries in the theory and technique thread, but even as I write this I am conscious of the total inadequacy of words on a page to convey (however well put) the details that are required to explain something in sound without a bass in my hands.

[endorka]

[quote name='SteveK' post='701885' date='Jan 5 2010, 05:15 PM']It may have sounded good to you, but possibly to the student and tutor there may have been vast room for improvement.[/quote]

It wisnae me though! :-)

Jennifer

[Pete Academy]

"It sounds to me like you were given too rich a diet too quickly. In reality, all notes can be played against all chords - they all result in individual sounds/textures that can legitimately be used in the creative process. By KNOWING what each not sounds like against each chord and by KNOWING why and how it functions, you will be able to make informed decisions about what to do with each individual piece of independent information. Knowing that a dominant seventh chord resolves to a Major chord a fifth below (say G7 to Cmaj7) means you can always hear that coming a mile off. Knowing that it can also resolve to a Major seventh chord a major third below (say G7 to Ebmaj7), creating a completely different feeling, immediately gives you choices. The more knowledge you have, the more choices you have. A diatonic major scale over a dominamt seventh chord or a diminshed scale implying a flattened ninth? Or an augmented scale over a dominant? All different, all correct and all options you can use as a composer, orchestrator or improviser. But you can't digest this stuff in a couple of lessons."

Aw, come on Bilbo...tell me something I don't already know.

[Rayman]

I need a dictionary to even keep up with this thread.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='702012' date='Jan 5 2010, 07:28 PM']"It sounds to me like you were given too rich a diet too quickly. In reality, all notes can be played against all chords - they all result in individual sounds/textures that can legitimately be used in the creative process. By KNOWING what each not sounds like against each chord and by KNOWING why and how it functions, you will be able to make informed decisions about what to do with each individual piece of independent information. Knowing that a dominant seventh chord resolves to a Major chord a fifth below (say G7 to Cmaj7) means you can always hear that coming a mile off. Knowing that it can also resolve to a Major seventh chord a major third below (say G7 to Ebmaj7), creating a completely different feeling, immediately gives you choices. The more knowledge you have, the more choices you have. A diatonic major scale over a dominamt seventh chord or a diminshed scale implying a flattened ninth? Or an augmented scale over a dominant? All different, all correct and all options you can use as a composer, orchestrator or improviser. But you can't digest this stuff in a couple of lessons."

Aw, come on Bilbo...tell me something I don't already know. [/quote]

Come on Bilbo, you've kept it quiet for too long. Tell everyone about your secret Quo tribute band.

[Clarky]

Anyway, we all know that to play a bass line you either play root notes consecutively or alternate them with fifths. Simples, after all we're only the bass players

Edited January 5, 2010 by Clarky

[Marvin]

You know theory Clarky, what's a fifth?

[xgsjx]

I've not read all this thread (but the topic has spun around a few times, which is a good thing), but I would have thought any musician would learn theory, even if it is just "the basics" on scales & chords.

It's a bit like taking up golf & getting good at swinging a club but never learning the rules or how to go round a course. You can still have fun tho whacking balls at things!

[Clarky]

[quote name='Marvin' post='702048' date='Jan 5 2010, 08:06 PM']You know theory Clarky, what's a fifth? [/quote]
Its one more than a fourth and one less than a sixth, its finally clicked!

[bubinga5]

when i first started playing bass i taught my self notes on the FB, then scales, which are super important and really not hard to learn, then modes (i couldnt tell you there names but who cares) that when my theory becomes very patchy..
Cycle of fifths still baffle me..why cant that penny drop?

I have started to learn Piano and it has opened up my world as far as bass playing is concerned...Knowing the chords which your basslines are based around does really help IMO..especially when improvising...

i still think as a bassist its much more important to be able to groove and have a good ear, than have great musical theory

Edited January 5, 2010 by bubinga5

[urb]

What's frustrating when listening to us bassists discuss theory is that some feel that because it's bass that we play that somehow we are exempt from certain ares of music, and just shut up and sit in the background, not make any fuss and not speak up when 1) we have a musical idea or 2) don't understand a musical idea. Obviously some of you don't feel this way and have a high degree of musical skill regardless of what instrument you play - I'm constantly striving to learn new things and always try and practice something new, but I also love working on creating bass lines, grooves, learning tunes - all that stuff. I always wonder if sax players or pianists sit around and think whether or not there's some areas of music that they should never stray into - much like some are here.

I went to a jazz gig last night (at Ronnie Scott's) and I could guarantee that all the bassists playing were fully interacting in the music, creating musical spaces, pushing the groove and the harmony - albeit in a more subtle way than the sax player or pianist - but with the greatest respect to all you lovely people it annoys me that some bassists feel like it's their right to have an inferiority complex about understanding music at a decent level - there's absolutely nothing to be afraid of, scared about or worried because you could and should know a bit more about how this stuff works - dive in and discover a bit more and see how much better it makes you feel as a, wait for it... musician.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='702086' date='Jan 5 2010, 08:35 PM']i still think as a bassist its much more important to be able to groove and have a good ear, than have great musical theory[/quote]
I think the major point here is that they are not mutually exclusive. Of course groove and good ear are important whether you have a good grasp of theory or not.

[TimR]

The Circle of fifths is easy to learn because its already mapped out on your bass.

Imagine a six string bass with top string as C, next one down G, then D, A, E and B. That's the major # keys starting with C no sharps and ending on B with 5 sharps.

Now up one semitone but this time ascending the strings. C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db. Gives you all the major b keys. C no flats up to Db with 5 flats.

All you need to do now is learn which sharps and flats are present in each key. If you look closely this is pretty simple to do as well.

Clearer?

If you ever see a piece of music in F# or Gb run!

Edited January 6, 2010 by TimR

[6stringbassist]

I do occassional gigs with a Paul Rodgers/Free/Queen tribute band, the money's OK and they play some good venues around the country.
They're also nice guys and we have a good time.

The lead guitarist plays well, has good feel etc and plays some really nice 'bluesy' solos. But he doesn't have any real idea of what he's actually playing. I tell him what the chords are which is kind of ironic 'cos I'm the bass player .
It was odd when I first started playing with them last year, I'd never really played or listened to much of the material that they do, so I'd ask what the chords were when we were rehearsing only to be met with blank looks.

They're getting a new fulltime bassist from February, to make it easier for him I've written out chord charts for him.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='702086' date='Jan 5 2010, 08:35 PM']I have started to learn Piano and it has opened up my world as far as bass playing is concerned...Knowing the chords which your basslines are based around does really help IMO..especially when improvising...[/quote]

Learning an intstrument such as piano or guitar, even at a very basic level, can be very helpful for understanding chord structure.
Hearing how the left hand bass notes "fit/or not" with right hand chords can be very useful & great fun experimenting.....but then again I may just be a bit sad and have too much time on my hands..

[urb]

[quote name='TimR' post='702340' date='Jan 6 2010, 12:01 AM']If you ever see a piece of music in F# or Gb run![/quote]

Those are two of my favourite keys! Seriously - F# minor is great and is really just A major but starting on the 6th...

M

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='702042' date='Jan 5 2010, 08:00 PM']Come on Bilbo, you've kept it quiet for too long. Tell everyone about your secret Quo tribute band. [/quote]

Its actually Kool & The Gang

[tauzero]

[quote name='Marvin' post='702048' date='Jan 5 2010, 08:06 PM']You know theory Clarky, what's a fifth? [/quote]
20%. You play the fifth once per bar and the root four times per bar. It can be a bit tricky fitting that properly to 4/4 time.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='tauzero' post='702564' date='Jan 6 2010, 10:41 AM']20%. You play the fifth once per bar and the root four times per bar. It can be a bit tricky fitting that properly to 4/4 time.[/quote]
Nah it's simple five over four, thats five evenly spaced crotchets in the space of four... used all the time in contemporary music.

[endorka]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='702577' date='Jan 6 2010, 10:49 AM']Nah it's simple five over four, thats five evenly spaced crotchets in the space of four... used all the time in contemporary music.[/quote]

Oh yeah. Drummers are good with words for these rhythms, one I work with uses "hippopotamus" (hip-o-pot-a-mus) for 5 in the space of four. Do you have any others?

Jennifer