Relicing a Bass...

[bassjamm]

Hello everyone,

I've just purchased a project bass that I intend to do some modding and ageing on.

It's Precision body with a Jazz neck. I want to have a Jazz Pickup route done and installed on it at the bridge.

Does anyone know how to do routing, and relicing?

I want to relic the whole lot, body, neck and parts. So any advice and/or links would be most appreciated.

Want to try and end up with a [url="http://www.nashguitars.com/"]Nash[/url] kind of bass. Not necessarily taking huge chunks out of the wood and what not, more just heavy wear and tear etc.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[b]*PICS ADDED IN POST BELOW*[/b]

Thanks
Jamie

Edited January 7, 2010 by bassjamm

[maxrossell]

If you've never routed anything before, I recommend having a professional do the route for the pickup.

As for relicing, it really depends what effect you want to achieve. If it's subtle use for a few years you're going for it's mainly going to be sandpaper, t-cut, a tiny bit of dark stain, and a few nicks here and there in strategic areas (i.e. headstock edges, arm contour, the playing area of the pickguard etc.) If you want to trash it, then you might as well chuck it under a bus. Also it would help to know if it has a rosewood board or a maple board. If it's a rosewood board you mainly just want to roll the edges a bit. If it's a maple board you're going to want to sand back the lacquer and stain it in specific areas.

Really, your best solution for relicing is to find pictures of actual old instruments and try to imitate the wear on them.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='697959' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:13 PM']If you've never routed anything before, I recommend having a professional do the route for the pickup.

As for relicing, it really depends what effect you want to achieve. If it's subtle use for a few years you're going for it's mainly going to be sandpaper, t-cut, a tiny bit of dark stain, and a few nicks here and there in strategic areas (i.e. headstock edges, arm contour, the playing area of the pickguard etc.) If you want to trash it, then you might as well chuck it under a bus. Also it would help to know if it has a rosewood board or a maple board. If it's a rosewood board you mainly just want to roll the edges a bit. If it's a maple board you're going to want to sand back the lacquer and stain it in specific areas.

Really, your best solution for relicing is to find pictures of actual old instruments and try to imitate the wear on them.[/quote]

Well I have sent off for a few quotes for the routing, so that's probably the road I'll go down for it. But if I thought I was up to the job, I'd give it a go.

As for the board, It's Maple. I was thinking about putting mother of pearl block inlays in, as opposed to the black dots. Not sure yet, but I'll most probably not do that and go for the worn look instead.

Any suggestions on specific tools and/or products to stain and wear the woods?

Thanks
Jamie

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='697966' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:26 PM']Well I have sent off for a few quotes for the routing, so that's probably the road I'll go down for it. But if I thought I was up to the job, I'd give it a go.

As for the board, It's Maple. I was thinking about putting mother of pearl block inlays in, as opposed to the black dots. Not sure yet, but I'll most probably not do that and go for the worn look instead.

Any suggestions on specific tools and/or products to stain and wear the woods?

Thanks
Jamie[/quote]

Sandpaper and T-cut, really. Sandpaper to wear down the paint, and T-cut to polish it back up so it has a natural patina. Where you want to stain the wood, get a dark brown stain, apply it on the bare wood, then wipe it off right away. Do this until you get the depth of stain you're looking for.

The little nicks and dents, you can do with pretty much anything metal and pointy, and as long as you don't go at it like a lumberjack, you should get the kind of little pock-marks that old instruments tend to get.

The key to good relicing is to get it only on the areas of the instrument where it would naturally occur, but also to work hard to apply subtle wear to the instrument overall so the wear patterns don't look jarring in contrast to the parts you don't alter. There's no point in wearing off an area down to the wood around the arm contour if the rest of the paintwork looks sparkly and new. That'll depend on what colour your bass is as well.

Personally if I was going to relic an instrument I'd start by taking it apart, going over it with fine sandpaper, applying a coat of stain, wiping that coat off, then buffing it back up with T-cut. That'll take the factory "newness" off it. Then I'd work from there. I might do it several more times before the project was done. If the body is light-coloured I might leave it out in the sun for a while. If I had time to spare I might bury the plastic parts, and put the metal parts in a jar of acid to wear off the chrome. There's all sorts of things you can do.

Relicing isn't just a matter of knocking a few dints into your finish or dragging it around the garden. You're trying to visually simulate decades of wear that has accumulated fractionally day by day, caused by a massive number of different factors. Therefore the key to realistic relicing is to build up tiny stages of artificial wear bit by bit. In fact, with some of the best relic jobs I've seen you couldn't even really tell what was done, the instrument just looked a lot older.

If you're going to route your bass yourself (again, I don't recommend it), I'd suggest getting a load of wood offcuts and practising on those first. You don't want to find out halfways through cutting into your bass that you're no good at woodwork.

[bassjamm]

Thanks for your help there kind sir.

That's all more or less along the lines I was thinking of and reading about anyway.

The body is black, so I guess I'm going to want to take the shin away a bit and get a duller look about to give the feel of age. That's what I'm after, an aged look, not a battered up pile of junk.

Where you say the following though, how long would the pick guard need burying for, and what kind of effect would it give?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='697983' date='Jan 1 2010, 02:45 PM']If I had time to spare I might bury the plastic parts, and put the metal parts in a jar of acid to wear off the chrome.[/quote]

I've got a good idea as to what I like the look of though, and there's plenty of pictures online to find inspiration from I know. It's just a case of learning how to do it without knackering the thing up.

There's a guy on youtube who's got some pretty cool 'how to' videos on relicing. He's using a full on power sander to do parts of it. He get some pretty cool finishes, but I'm worried that it could be too easy to go too far too quickly with that method.

Hmm...

Also, you mentioned staining. I'm guess the stain only really needs applying to the exposed wood and under coats etc? Not the whole lot?

Would It be worth putting a Nitro finish on to the body then? Although, I guess that's just making more/hard work for myself.

Thanks though maxrossell.

Jamie

Edited January 1, 2010 by bassjamm

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='698089' date='Jan 1 2010, 04:44 PM']Thanks for your help there kind sir.
That's all more or less along the lines I was thinking of and reading about anyway.
The body is black, so I guess I'm going to want to take the shin away a bit and get a duller look about to give the feel of age. That's what I'm after, an aged look, not a battered up pile of junk.
Where you say the following though, how long would the pick guard need burying for, and what kind of effect would it give?
I've got a good idea as to what I like the look of though, and there's plenty of pictures online to find inspiration from I know. It's just a case of learning how to do it without knackering the thing up.
There's a guy on youtube who's got some pretty cool 'how to' videos on relicing. He's using a full on power sander to do parts of it. He get some pretty cool finishes, but I'm worried that it could be too easy to go too far too quickly with that method.
Hmm...
Also, you mentioned staining. I'm guess the stain only really needs applying to the exposed wood and under coats etc? Not the whole lot?
Would It be worth putting a Nitro finish on to the body then? Although, I guess that's just making more/hard work for myself.
Thanks though maxrossell.
Jamie[/quote]

In order:

Black is an easy colour to relic - or rather it's hard to get it wrong. Scuff it up, like you said, take a bit of the shine off it. Don't take [i]all[/i] the shine off it though, you're not going for a matt finish.

I don't actually think you should bury the pickguard. That's an extreme example of what you can do, but on balance it probably wouldn't have a particularly impressive effect. Get a mint green pickguard, round off the edges a bit, scuff it up, rub some stain into it then clean it up, that's about the best you can do with plastic.

Ignore "how to" videos on youtube. I've yet to see one where the achieved effect is even vaguely credible. People who relic guitars for a living charge hundreds for a reason - it's way more difficult than just blasting the thing with an orbital sander or stabbing it with a screwdriver. 99% of it is done by hand because, as I said, the whole thing is a buildup of subtle layers of ageing. People who do it professionally do hours of research, and the effects they apply are not random.

You'd apply stain to the whole thing. If you rough the paint up first the stain will take better, but you have to bear in mind that the stain will take far more on the wood than it will on the paintwork so you'll have to judge it carefully. Use very small amounts of stain and work slowly. Maybe dilute the stain some so you're not putting on too much at a time.

And no, you absolutely don't want to be spending a lot of money on nitro paints and clears. This is your first project, so at this point it would be little more than a waste of money. One thing at a time. Relic this one, then maybe refinish the next one once you're more confident. Or if you absolutely want to refinish this one, use poly paints because if you make a mistake it won't be as costly. But don't take on too many things at once.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='698138' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:28 PM']I don't actually think you should bury the pickguard. That's an extreme example of what you can do, but on balance it probably wouldn't have a particularly impressive effect. Get a mint green pickguard, round off the edges a bit, scuff it up, rub some stain into it then clean it up, that's about the best you can do with plastic.[/quote]

It's a black pick guard, so any suggestions?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='698138' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:28 PM']Ignore "how to" videos on youtube. I've yet to see one where the achieved effect is even vaguely credible. People who relic guitars for a living charge hundreds for a reason - it's way more difficult than just blasting the thing with an orbital sander or stabbing it with a screwdriver. 99% of it is done by hand because, as I said, the whole thing is a buildup of subtle layers of ageing. People who do it professionally do hours of research, and the effects they apply are not random.[/quote]

Fair enough mate, although the guy did achieve a pretty good finish in my opinion...here's the link - [url="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=522drwagon#g/u"]Look at the "relic my guitar" vids[/url]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='698138' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:28 PM']You'd apply stain to the whole thing. If you rough the paint up first the stain will take better, but you have to bear in mind that the stain will take far more on the wood than it will on the paintwork so you'll have to judge it carefully. Use very small amounts of stain and work slowly. Maybe dilute the stain some so you're not putting on too much at a time.[/quote]

So just take it easy and do several coats then so as to not go gun hoe and screw it up out the blocks. That makes sense. Why would you apply the stain to the whole body though, even the non-exposed parts? Just curios.

And I hear you on the lacquering thing. That all makes perfect sense then.

Do you know of any good links to any photos, videos or guides then? I'm pretty sure I've grasped what you've talked about though, but any visual help would be a massive bonus too.

As for the whole working by hand thing. That seems like the best way to go anyway to avoid making a hash of it. I'm not going to be in any rush to do all of this, as long as I can spend a good few hours on it over the next couple of weeks, with the end product coming together around Feb time, I'd be happy.

Any tips on how to achieve believable wear on the maple neck and finger board? Would it be a case of using sand paper to break through the finish down to the wood in the correct wear zones/patterns, and then using the lacquer like we would on the body?

Thanks again kind sir.

Jamie

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='698160' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:45 PM']It's a black pick guard, so any suggestions?

Why would you apply the stain to the whole body though, even the non-exposed parts? Just curios.

Do you know of any good links to any photos, videos or guides then? I'm pretty sure I've grasped what you've talked about though, but any visual help would be a massive bonus too.

Any tips on how to achieve believable wear on the maple neck and finger board? Would it be a case of using sand paper to break through the finish down to the wood in the correct wear zones/patterns, and then using the lacquer like we would on the body?

Thanks again kind sir.

Jamie[/quote]

If it's a black pickguard, I'd basically give it a sand/T-cut treatment to round the edges off and take the new shine off the surface. I assume it's a 3-ply, so I'd also give it a bit of stain to offcolour the middle layer.

The reason why you stain the whole body is that the ageing process you're trying to recreate involves discolouration of the entire instrument through exposure to light and dirt and pollution and the oils from your hands and dead skin cells and whatever else. Show me a guitar that has been played for forty years, and I'll show you a guitar that is several tones darker than it was when it came out of the factory. That's why you want to use brown stain - applied then wiped off quickly it will leave the surface just a fraction darker - and a fraction yellower - than it was before.

As I said, I don't like any of the guides I've found. There is no real established how-to for relicing, and how successful you are is really going to depend on your artistic skill - remember that what you're trying to do is produce a counterfeit of something. The best tip you'll find out there for how to achieve a good look is to look at real old instruments and find out how they got that way. On a maple fretboard, the laquer gets worn away by the strings scraping on it, and the wood gets stained by sweat and dirt. So you wear it away in the same areas and stain it. Same with the paint around the arm contour, it gets worn away and the wood underneath gets stained with sweat and dirt. The bevels of a pickguard get worn down. The surface of the metal parts gets tarnished. Just find out how best to achieve those effects. and you're good to go.

[Owen]

Some guy on TB sent out a 7 email monster on how to relic. If you (or anyone else for that matter) PM me your email I will forward it on to you. It is full of ideas.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='owen' post='700003' date='Jan 3 2010, 09:33 PM']Some guy on TB sent out a 7 email monster on how to relic. If you (or anyone else for that matter) PM me your email I will forward it on to you. It is full of ideas.[/quote]

PM on it's way mate...

[bassjamm]

Anyone got any thoughts on how to age a neck, both on the back and the fingerboard?

[bassjamm]

Well here's some photos of the body...any input would be great.

I'm going to create a build thread a bit further down the line, but wanted to post some photos up on here to get your feedback and thoughts.

I think the wood stain is a bit too black personally, but it doesn't seem to take too well to the exposed wood that still has some clear finish on it.

I also need to get a finer grade of wet and dry paper...1200 grit leaves a bit of a scratchy surface, although I've sanded a fair bit. Think I might need to T Cut it a few more times to wear the scratches down a bit. What do you all think?

The bold patch near the bridge on the front is going to be roughly where my thumb would rest when the jazz pickup gets routed in.

Some pics before:

[attachment=39570:DSC00442.JPG] [attachment=39571:DSC00439.JPG]

Some pics during:

[attachment=39572:DSC00452.JPG] [attachment=39573:DSC00453.JPG] [attachment=39574:DSC00454.JPG]

Some pic after:

[attachment=39568:DSC00461.JPG] [attachment=39569:DSC00458.JPG]

Any thoughts then folks? Particularly on the wood stain...should i get a lighter stain to treat the wood? And what about the T Cut on the finish...will it take out the scratches?

Thanks in advance...

Jamie

[mcgraham]

Honestly, I think that looks pretty darn cool! The front looks very vintage'd, except for the scratch plate which looks brand-spanking new.

The back is good... but less convincing, as I can't envisage how you'd get such perfect wear marks around the bottom near the control area.

All in all, I'd say a good job

[hillbilly deluxe]

Scratches - take them out with Solvol Autosol,then T-Cut.

Edited January 7, 2010 by hillbilly deluxe

[bassjamm]

Thanks for that chaps...this is all good feed back and exactly what I'm after.

I need to use a better camera on it for some more pics I think.

But yeah Mark, the scratch plate hasn't been worked on yet, just the body thus far. Not sure how i'll relic it but i'll find a way

Any thoughts on the wood colouring...too dark, too light?

Thanks
Jamie

[hillbilly deluxe]

Try Ronseal French polish for the neck,i have used it before with good results.
Body stain,to give that grubby look ? wood dye.

Edited January 7, 2010 by hillbilly deluxe

[bassjamm]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='703898' date='Jan 7 2010, 10:36 AM']Try Ronseal French polish for the neck,i have used it before with good results.
Body stain,to give that grubby look ? wood dye.[/quote]

The neck already has some aged dye or something on it. I think I need to wear down the top coat though, where your hand would go, then rub some kind of grub into it.

I've got a dark wood stain already, that's what the black/dark stuff is on the exposed wood. But I think it's almost too dark, but not dark enough on the exposed wood where there's still a little top coat. Does that make sense?

Think I might need to rough the clear coat up a bit to help the dye take to it, then work it down again and buff it all back up.

In any case...it's certainly an interesting little project