10" speaker choices

[AlanP2008]

Hi, a newbie here...

I've been looking for suitable 10" speakers to upgrade a budget 2x10 cabinet (Mag 210). Part of the issue is that a 4ohm cab would be much more useful to me than the current 8 ohms, so as to extract more from my SS amp...

I wouldn't mind getting a couple of Neos, so I've been looking at Eminence Deltalite II 2510 data (plus standard Deltas), also at Celestion, and a bunch of other candidates stocked at Blue Aran...

... I've come to the view that, as someone with an electronic engineering background, and in the distant past an audio engineering background, if I were designing a bass cabinet today, I wouldn't even consider 10" drivers -- 12" would be the minimum, for all sorts of reasons (resonant frequency and useful frequency range being just two of them...)

And yet there are so many 2x10 and 4x10 cabs out there.... Is this all just fad? (Although of course I do understand the attraction of smaller, lighter cabinets.)

Are there any 10" drivers that are actually really suitable for bass guitar applications - or have I just not been lucky so far? (I play 4-string bass, so my requirements are not as low-down as many others....)

Thanks in Advance
Alan

[Mr. Foxen]

Don't think going 4 ohm would make enough difference to be worth the change. The Sica drivers are kind of lame though, so upgrading for moe power handling and sensitivity is more viable. Is it a sealed or ported cab? Makes a fairly huge difference in driver choice.

I just stuck a spare Delta 12 in my EB combo and it is a definite improvement.

Also, check the Barefaced forum section, lots of info relevant there.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='700376' date='Jan 4 2010, 07:39 AM']... I've come to the view that, as someone with an electronic engineering background, and in the distant past an audio engineering background, if I were designing a bass cabinet today, I wouldn't even consider 10" drivers -- 12" would be the minimum, for all sorts of reasons (resonant frequency and useful frequency range being just two of them...)[/quote]
If you investigate further you'll find the differences between tens, twelves and fifteens in general are slight, while those between specific models of drivers are considerable. You'd also find that the 2x10 is, all things considered, the most versatile configuration when the drivers are vertically aligned (and most are not) while the 4x10 is the most intrinsically flawed.
Where tens are concerned my preference lies with the Eminence Basslite S2010 and Deltalite II 2510.

[Mog]

loadsa choices here.
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/guitar_amp_speakers.html"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/guitar_amp_speakers.html[/url]
personally i like celestion speakers.

[AlanP2008]

Thanks for the replies...

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='700452' date='Jan 4 2010, 01:52 PM']If you investigate further you'll find the differences between tens, twelves and fifteens in general are slight, while those between specific models of drivers are considerable. You'd also find that the 2x10 is, all things considered, the most versatile configuration when the drivers are vertically aligned (and most are not) while the 4x10 is the most intrinsically flawed.
Where tens are concerned my preference lies with the Eminence Basslite S2010 and Deltalite II 2510.[/quote]

Well, I'm not sure that is entirely what I was seeing from the specs... For the delta lites, the 10's are clearly less useful in terms of low-end frequencies (for bass), the 12's will be loudest (and true, the 15's don't look any better than the 12's, but are a bit less sensitive):

2510: Resonance 53Hz, Usable Frequency Range 60Hz-4kHz, Sensitivity 97.3
2512: Resonance 42Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-3.7kHz, Sensitivity 99.9
2515: Resonance 42Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-3.7kHz, Sensitivity 99.2
Basslite S2010: Resonance 46Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-4kHz, Sensitivity 96.2

There doesn't *appear* to be anything stand-out there (or against 10's in other ranges/brands either)... But I do appreciate your responses to my question.
I wondered if there was any other brand around that I hadn't spotted that might be more appropriate - but maybe there isn't...

I appreciate what you say about vertical alignment though - the old principle of the "column speakers" - it is odd how things come into and go out of fashion. Re the topic of my post, it looks as if a 2x12 would probably give most "bang per buck" (a better compromise) comparing power, frequency response, size, weight, sensitivity and cost, than 2x10, 4x10, or 1x15 = but they don't seem very popular at all...

[quote]Don't think going 4 ohm would make enough difference to be worth the change. The Sica drivers are kind of lame though, so upgrading for moe power handling and sensitivity is more viable. Is it a sealed or ported cab? Makes a fairly huge difference in driver choice.[/quote]

I wouldn't swap out just for that - I was looking for better sensitivity, better frequency response and maybe higher power rating - the impedance change was the icing on the cake... (and it's ported....)

Does anyone know what speaker is used in Ashdown's ABM series - they seem to boast 102dB sensitivity, versus the 98dB of the MAG series - that's double the volume right there...

Thanks again
Alan

[bumnote]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='700387' date='Jan 4 2010, 12:49 PM']Don't think going 4 ohm would make enough difference to be worth the change.[/quote]


As someone who upgraded an 8 ohm 15 to a 4 ohm fifteen i would agree the the difference in volume is not worth the extra cost unless you buy efficient speakers.

A 4 ohm small cab can generally only be used on its own as either you have to pair it with another 4 ohm and find an amp that runs down to 2 ohm, wire them in parrellel giving you an 8 ohm load or have a mismatch and it wont be so easy to sell
on later on

Also by the time you have bought a couple of decent tens you might as well buy a better cab, or build one of Bills,

[Protium]

I like Eminence Beta 10's which should go nicely into an Ashdown 210

[Mr. Foxen]

Or if you wanna do the whole 2x12 build, there's a good plan here: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful%E2%84%A2_12/6_%26_15/6"]Fearful[/url]

[chris_b]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='700532' date='Jan 4 2010, 03:17 PM']....it looks as if a 2x12 would probably give most "bang per buck" (a better compromise) comparing power, frequency response, size, weight, sensitivity and cost, than 2x10, 4x10, or 1x15 = but they don't seem very popular at all....[/quote]
2 112 cabs seems to be the current favourite bass rig containing 12's.

[mikhay77]

After trying these new style neo speakers,I have gone back to old skool .I had a trace 2x10 with horn,uprated to 400w neo style,yes more responsive but didnt seem to handle the full range,tried it along side my 1048h (also 300w)and no comparison,yes I know the cab is larger but there is no substitute for movement of air,and the neos did tend to break up when pushing the lows,also thats why I got rid of the markbass,but thats just my personal opinion.

[stevie]

[quote name='mikhay77' post='700735' date='Jan 4 2010, 06:03 PM']After trying these new style neo speakers,I have gone back to old skool .I had a trace 2x10 with horn,uprated to 400w neo style,yes more responsive but didnt seem to handle the full range,tried it along side my 1048h (also 300w)and no comparison,yes I know the cab is larger but there is no substitute for movement of air,and the neos did tend to break up when pushing the lows,also thats why I got rid of the markbass,but thats just my personal opinion.[/quote]
Which neo 10s did you use in the Trace?

[mikhay77]

[quote name='stevie' post='700746' date='Jan 4 2010, 06:15 PM']Which neo 10s did you use in the Trace?[/quote]
Not certain but a friend ran the local music store and BN10s seem to ring a bell.They were err "Borrowed" as it were.At least I got the chance to do a back to back with the other trace and with the MB too all in all it was a majority vote for the 1048,so not just personal preference!

Edited January 4, 2010 by mikhay77

[JTUK]

My upgrade to Delta 2510 over PAS chassis' was a result, IMV... the cab is down to 4 ohms..which is incidental, but the power is upto 500watts and the weight save is good.
Maybe this was a happy accident but I am pleased I went that route although I had to replace the speakers anyway.. otherwise I would not have bothered.
Soundwise, not much in it, but the power increase and the weight save works ok..

I don't use the cab as a standalone for any powerful gigs either..

I would consider 2 2x10's as a rig but currently add a 15" underneath.
I think a lot depends on the structure of the cab with Neo's in it.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='700532' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:17 AM']2510: Resonance 53Hz, Usable Frequency Range 60Hz-4kHz, Sensitivity 97.3
2512: Resonance 42Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-3.7kHz, Sensitivity 99.9
2515: Resonance 42Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-3.7kHz, Sensitivity 99.2
Basslite S2010: Resonance 46Hz, Usable Frequency Range 54Hz-4kHz, Sensitivity 96.2

Thanks again
Alan[/quote]These specs in and of themselves reveal almost nothing about how the drivers work when loaded in a cabinet. That can only be determined using all the driver T/S parameters with speaker enclosure modeling software like WinISD Alpha Pro for the region of pistonic function, roughly up to 200 Hz, and the SPL charts from the manufacturer driver data sheets for above 200 Hz. And then there's the matter of being able to interpret the results.
BTW, if one only had the above data as predictors the differences between the four drivers listed would be, for all practical purposes, inaudible.

[AlanP2008]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='700798' date='Jan 4 2010, 07:00 PM']These specs in and of themselves reveal almost nothing about how the drivers work when loaded in a cabinet. That can only be determined using all the driver T/S parameters with speaker enclosure modeling software like WinISD Alpha Pro for the region of pistonic function, roughly up to 200 Hz, and the SPL charts from the manufacturer driver data sheets for above 200 Hz. And then there's the matter of being able to interpret the results.
BTW, if one only had the above data as predictors the differences between the four drivers listed would be, for all practical purposes, inaudible.[/quote]

Well I got hold of WinISD Pro and spent some time getting to grips with it.

From the volume and the porting, the cab seems to be tuned to around 41Hz (which makes some sense I guess, given the likely resonance of te speakers).
The speakers in the Mag 210 at the moment are Chinese made Eminence, without any id of the model number.

Putting the models of the Emi Alpha in there (assuming the speaker is one of their cheaper designs...) it doesn't look too bad, but distinctly light on the bass end. There seems to be little point putting very high powered pairs of 10s in there, as speakers like the 2510 and S2010 (which looks a bit better in terms of response, but I haven't found anywhere in the UK that stocks them) end up displacement limited, and the bottom end still isn't that great.

Putting just a single 10 in there improves the bass response immensely, but makes the displacement problem much much worse - you can't get more than about 120W out of it at 41Hz, or else the speaker in poling like crazy (Xmax is 4mm or so, but Xlim, where damage can occur is up around 8mm).

I tried a lot of different things - no amount of tuning would make much diffference to the basic problems - poor bass response, and or displacement limited at quite low power.

The best thing I found, was in trying a single Eminence Delta 12 LFA - a single 12", and it seems much better than a Deltalite 2512...

It's Resonance is pretty low at 51Hz, and also being a single speaker in the cab gives an excellent bass response, but mainly, it has a massive Xlim at 13.5mm, which allows a lot of power to be used even with bottom strings. Ok, Xmax isn't so high, but it is good at 4.8mm. I know there is likely to be increased distortion if this is exceeded, but at least it won't be trashing the voicecoil...

It isn't a brilliantly sensitive speaker at 94.6dB and I suppose that's the worst part - but at least you can get some power into it without trashing it... It's rated at 500W continuous. The main thing though, is that I got a convincing response curve (F3 at 42Hz), with the ability to get it powered up well...

... does this sound reasonable, or have I missed something (I haven't missed the point that this is all simulated...)?

Edited January 9, 2010 by AlanP2008

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='707220' date='Jan 9 2010, 06:14 PM']The best thing I found, was in trying a single Eminence Delta 12 LFA - a single 12", and it seems much better than a Deltalite 2512...

It's Resonance is pretty low at 51Hz, and also being a single speaker in the cab gives an excellent bass response, but mainly, it has a massive Xlim at 13.5mm, which allows a lot of power to be used even with bottom strings. Ok, Xmax isn't so high, but it is good at 4.8mm. I know there is likely to be increased distortion if this is exceeded, but at least it won't be trashing the voicecoil...[/quote]Try the 3012HO. Xlim is moot, xmax is everything. The D12LF was state of the art ten years ago, rendered obsolete by the 3012HO, which is also a contender but really needs to be used with a six ought five midrange.

[AlanP2008]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='707299' date='Jan 10 2010, 12:38 AM']Try the 3012HO. Xlim is moot, xmax is everything. The D12LF was state of the art ten years ago, rendered obsolete by the 3012HO, which is also a contender but really needs to be used with a six ought five midrange.[/quote]

Thanks Bill, will do... (The D12LF now seems to be the D12LFA - the specs are different from the D12LF, although I'm sure it is just an improved version. - equally, WinISD Pro seems to only have models for the older types, DeltaLite rather then DeltaLite II, for example - I guess you have to update the specs yourself... that's what I did.)

Re Xmax/Xlim: My understanding is that if you exceed Xmax, distortion will exceed some arbitrary value that the manufacturer uses to establish Xmax, whereas exceeding Xlim is likely to result in damage.

If a bassist is rocking out, and it's all getting a bit noisy - he's unlikely to be concerned by a bit of increased distortion on peaks as he exceeds Xmax... (and anyway, some people like that kind of speaker compression). But he *will* be concerned if the voice coil starts hitting the stops, and/or he destroys his speakers!

... maybe I've got that all wrong?

[AlanP2008]

Quick take on the 3012HO is good. Similarly low(ish) Fs at 51.5, very good Xmax and Xlim at 6.2mm (!) and 12.5mm, and excellent sensitivity at 100.5dB (that's worth amplifier money right there!)... Haven't found a supplier in the Uk though (Boo!)

I'll try it out in WinISD (got to build the model first...)

Thanks
Alan

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='707552' date='Jan 10 2010, 07:15 AM']Re Xmax/Xlim: My understanding is that if you exceed Xmax, distortion will exceed some arbitrary value that the manufacturer uses to establish Xmax, whereas exceeding Xlim is likely to result in damage.[/quote]There's nothing arbitrary about xmax, it's when distortion reaches 10%. Some manufacturers still use the old coil depth versus plate thickness method, and that is arbitrary and obsolete. Xmax tells you the maximum safe power level that may be applied, and it's what you consider if you have a limiter that allows restricting power amp output, though that's more of a PA scenario. Exceed xlim and the driver is damaged, irreparably so, so it's not something you want to even vaguely flirt with.
[quote]I had a trace 2x10 with horn,uprated to 400w neo style,yes more responsive but didnt seem to handle the full range,[/quote]All that indicates is that you used the wrong ones. You can't just drop any driver into a cab willy nilly and expect a good result. A very fair amount of research is necessary, as this thread reveals.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='AlanP2008' post='707590' date='Jan 10 2010, 12:51 PM']Quick take on the 3012HO is good. Similarly low(ish) Fs at 51.5, very good Xmax and Xlim at 6.2mm (!) and 12.5mm, and excellent sensitivity at 100.5dB (that's worth amplifier money right there!)... Haven't found a supplier in the Uk though (Boo!)

I'll try it out in WinISD (got to build the model first...)

Thanks
Alan[/quote]

Many handy models for winisd pro are [url="http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/"]here[/url]

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='707758' date='Jan 10 2010, 03:21 PM']There's nothing arbitrary about xmax, it's when distortion reaches 10%.[/quote]
There are so many ways of quoting xmax and nobody agrees on what's right. I'd call that arbitrary.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='707758' date='Jan 10 2010, 03:21 PM']Some manufacturers still use the old coil depth versus plate thickness method, and that is arbitrary and obsolete.[/quote]
It's hardly obselete, because all speaker manufacturers still quote it in their specs. Except Eminence, of course, who have stopped quoting it, I suspect on the advice of their marketing department.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='707299' date='Jan 10 2010, 12:38 AM']The D12LF was state of the art ten years ago, rendered obsolete by the 3012HO, which is also a contender but really needs to be used with a six ought five midrange.[/quote]
That speaker was never anywhere close to state of the art ten years ago or ever.

[AlanP2008]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='707940' date='Jan 10 2010, 06:02 PM']Many handy models for winisd pro are [url="http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/"]here[/url][/quote]

Brilliant - thanks very much....

[karlthebassist]

i know theyree not lightweight or exactly the best speakers on the market but I have a pair of emi beta 10's for sale if you fancy them. just drop me a pm.