Full circle with cabinets and amps

[Musicman20]

Ive been testing and buying/selling a hell of a lot recently.

I am convinced I have my perfect amps. I am also now very sure that pure hifi completely modern amps are not for me....eg the Genz sound. I like warmth, vintage tone, some nice sweet high end, and overall I like it whether thats clean or dirty, depending on what band Im playing in!

I am also not that bothered about lightweight neo cabinets or sonically pure cabinets. I have tried a few neo cabinets....even the really high end gear, and its great. The weight is great, and yes they are very much the same as ceramic. BUT....its still not 100% there for me. I cannot get the MASSIVE ceramic thump. [u]Size[/u] of cabinet is much more important. I cannot really say at any point I need 5 mid sized cabinets, and this has led me to sell my beloved Berg HS410. What a fantastic piece of kit...but it was the cab I knew would sell well. One day I might go Berg again...when I have more space. Its a very small compact 4x10...but seen as though I have 4 other mid sized cabs....it wasnt getting the use it should (Enjoy it Jigster!)

So...as much as I am really not sure how it has happened, I am going for ceramic 2x10s. These are the RS210s by TC Electronics.

Yes, they are not probably as well made overall as Berg...but for their size, they pack a HUGE punch. I was actually shocked how good they sounded. And yep, they are ceramic. I dont know why they work for me, but they do. So im going to put some on order (x2), not bother with an RS212 as its again another 2x12 which I already have, and test out these vertical 2x10s. One of them is going to be great for smaller practices and home use. 2 is brilliant! I am awaiting the new finish, (black in colour, and stronger) and I will report back. Could be a few months as the new finish isnt on the 2x10s as yet.

My advice...test test test and find what you like. I never though i'd get a full TC rig....but I like the sound it produces, and the sheer slimness is great when I dont want to cart the Orange about, or the Aguilar cabs.

Happy New Year....let the 2010 GAS start!

[Conan]

Thanks for that summary Gareth! After ploughing through loads of literature, comments and reviews about gear in the last month I have come to a similar conclusion! I am yet to do the actual physical testing, but in my mind I think I know my own ear pretty well!

The TC RH450 route is definitely one I would like to go down, but I'm unsure about that skinny tower of sound.... On the other hand, I bet it draws comments and I can't wait to hear drummers and guitarists saying "HOW many watts is that? You'll never hear that above me..." etc.

[wateroftyne]

I use two Berg HS210s stacked in a skinny tower with-a-tiny-footprint stylee, and it's a beautiful GAS-quenching sound.

[niceguyhomer]

I'm completely GAS free since I got my Aguilar AG500 (2 channel), 2 GS112s and a Tonehammer - it does everything from squeaky clean to down and dirty filth, it's relatively light, modular and looks the bollocks.

Like you Gareth, I had to go through a lot of gear to get there but it was fun

[mcgraham]

I know what you mean. I only started looking at amps and cabs properly just as neo speakers and class D power amps were really breaking onto the scene, and so somehow 'bypassed' the whole ceramic speakers and valve amp side of things. Now I'm discovering that these 'old school' simple setups are actually incredibly full of tone and worth investigating further.

[Conan]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='701299' date='Jan 5 2010, 09:38 AM']I'm discovering that these 'old school' simple setups are actually incredibly full of tone and worth investigating further.[/quote]

I'm not sure that they are any "simpler" are they? After all, we are talking about an amplifier plugged into one or more speaker cabinets.... regardless of the size of the units, transistors vs valves, Nd vs ceramic, etc...

Or am I oversimplifying things myself?!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' post='701300' date='Jan 5 2010, 09:41 AM']I'm not sure that they are any "simpler" are they? After all, we are talking about an amplifier plugged into one or more speaker cabinets.... regardless of the size of the units, transistors vs valves, Nd vs ceramic, etc...

Or am I oversimplifying things myself?! [/quote]
I dunno... I'm beginning to wonder if 'light = lite' when it comes to tone.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I'm not sure that they are any "simpler" are they?[/quote]

I was thinking more about the amps than the cabs. Arguably they all do the same thing 'speakers = sound' and 'amps = power', but I'm thinking more about the complexity of the inner workings and the number of components. Does the expression 'less is more' seem appropriate? or 'a chain is only as strong as its weakest link'. My understanding is that generally the fewer components the better for achieving a 'pure sound' and for avoiding distortion of the sound.

Put it this way: years ago I was working with a professional sound engineer installing a PA system in a large church venue. He was telling me about a microphone that he'd heard about that used a beam of light that shines onto a singer (or other instrument, etc) and detects vibrations using that beam of light. I asked him 'that idea sounds amazing, why don't people use it then?' (assuming it wasn't too expensive). He said 'just because it's new, or complicated doesn't mean it sounds good... and even if it sounds good, it doesn't mean it sounds better than the stuff we currently use' and he made reference to classic microphones, classic bass amps, guitar amps, pickups, guitars, basses, etc.

Whilst he wasn't dismissing new technology, I felt he was suggesting that maybe we listen more with our ears and spend less time reading the spec sheet and the price tag.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='701303' date='Jan 5 2010, 09:42 AM']I dunno... I'm beginning to wonder if 'light = lite' when it comes to tone.[/quote]
Are you forgetting a certain light 2x15? Effortless bottom, thick mids and lovely rolled-off top?

Quite honestly, I'd be prepared to take a hit on tone to save some weight (anybody who's done the load-in/out at the Dog & Parrot in Newcastle will appreciate the value of not having a ceramic-loaded 8x10), but I've managed to find a solution that gives me tone [i]and[/i] lack of weight.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='701346' date='Jan 5 2010, 10:40 AM']Are you forgetting a certain light 2x15? Effortless bottom, thick mids and lovely rolled-off top?

Quite honestly, I'd be prepared to take a hit on tone to save some weight (anybody who's done the load-in/out at the Dog & Parrot in Newcastle will appreciate the value of not having a ceramic-loaded 8x10), but I've managed to find a solution that gives me tone [i]and[/i] lack of weight.[/quote]
Of course not

My comment was more aimed at amps than cabs, but the Vintage is the only cab I've tried so far that blurs the ceramic / NEO line...

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='701347' date='Jan 5 2010, 10:42 AM']My comment was more aimed at amps than cabs[/quote]
Ah, got yer. I'd probably agree, then. I like a lot about my LMII, but by far the most "me" tone I've ever produced was from an old Traynor all-valve head. (Actually, I think it was the sawn-off top of a combo, but... y'know... same thing.) If the owner was ever thinking of selling it, I'd bite his arm off at the elbow.

Apart from the fact it weighed about 30kg.

[mcgraham]

I think the beauty and sonic bliss of a simple valve/ceramic setup is most obvious from guitar amps, but the weight associated with equivalent bass amps is just plain unpleasant. This is the biggest factor that dissuades me from going down a more 'vintage' route.

[Raggy]

There is nothing hi-fi about my Genz ShuttleMax6, lovely warm growl with my P Bass.

Get 10 bass players playing through one amp and I think you will get 10 different sounds.

[cetera]

[quote name='Raggy' post='701368' date='Jan 5 2010, 10:59 AM']There is nothing hi-fi about my Genz ShuttleMax6, lovely warm growl with my P Bass.

Get 10 bass players playing through one amp and I think you will get 10 different sounds.[/quote]

Have to agree.... when I heard the lovely warm growl my friend got from his Shuttle 6 I was blown away...

[mcgraham]

[quote]I am also now very sure that pure hifi completely modern amps are not for me....eg the Genz sound[/quote]
[quote]There is nothing hi-fi about my Genz ShuttleMax6, lovely warm growl with my P Bass.[/quote]
[quote]Have to agree.... when I heard the lovely warm growl my friend got from his Shuttle 6 I was blown away[/quote]
I always find it amusing when people put pieces of gear in completely different tonal camps. It goes to show how difficult it is to try and explain sound purely using words, and how subjective our own perception of sound is anyway!

[Raggy]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='701395' date='Jan 5 2010, 11:19 AM']I always find it amusing when people put pieces of gear in completely different tonal camps. It goes to show how difficult it is to try and explain sound purely using words, and how subjective our own perception of sound is anyway![/quote]

Very true

[MythSte]

I give you all a month...

[mcgraham]

Before what?

[Raggy]

C'mon Stephen, what have you getting to pair with your Vintage?????

[Conan]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='701346' date='Jan 5 2010, 10:40 AM']but I've managed to find a solution that gives me tone [i]and[/i] lack of weight.[/quote]

And there, in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen, we have it!

There are some players for whom tone is EVERYTHING, and they will not compromise anything to get it (or their version of it).

Others, who may have injuries, be very weedy or just be fed up with humping 50kg+ boxes about; will choose gear based purely on MASS (not weight!! Unless you are referring to the weight in newtons! ) and are prepared to sacrifice a certain amount of tone to do so.

Most of us appear to be somewhere in the middle I would guess. We want as much tone as we can get from an easily transportable rig. It's exactly where we individually draw that line that leads to argument/discussion etc.

Interesting though, innit!?

GB shuttle 9.0 through an Ampeg SVT810 anyone?

[Dood]

The title of this thread made me smile - as I too have changed my gear far too many times for sanity - yet I still have heard, more than a couple of times in the last few months, a phrase similar too 'So, when *are* you gonna get that Hartke rig back???'

[mcgraham]

At least when we buy gear we're usually [i]changing [/i]it. I'd rather frequently change my gear than continuously accumulate it like most guitarists seem to.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='701303' date='Jan 5 2010, 09:42 AM']I dunno... I'm beginning to wonder if 'light = lite' when it comes to tone.[/quote]

I must admit some of the really lightweight amps do lack the tone...but thats just me. I like a big powerful vintage rock tone, but I also like the smooth fast and warm Markbass tone....as it has massive lows with such tiny amp.

The RH450 is the closest Ive ever heard a micro sound like a tube amp. So much I made myself skint to buy one. But, its not hugely light....its about 10lbs, but it feels substantial. Some of these micros probably weigh less than a large effects pedal. Like the obsession with stupidy small phones, it seems the market balanced out with a larger size but better features (iphone, etc etc).

I think some of the 'inaccuracies' and 'colour' that certain cabinets add actually really make a lovely tone. Its finding one you like. I always liked the 90s Trace cabs...they arent perfect...but I like the sound. Not tested the latest ones....but I imagine I will still like them.

I think the obsession with lightweight and complete accuracy/no colour of tone, actually led me to realise thats not for everyone. I tried it...and didnt really see the massive deal with it. Maybe it because of the tones I like, and the music I listen to.

For instance, Ive always wanted a Warwick, but I tried one 'on', as well as a Spector, and they just do not suit me. Im an idiot because I cant see past the vintage style of basses.

Each to their own though. Thats the fun!

[Dood]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='701610' date='Jan 5 2010, 02:08 PM']At least when we buy gear we're usually [i]changing [/i]it. I'd rather frequently change my gear than continuously accumulate it like most guitarists seem to.[/quote]

That's pretty true, yeah. I think we also change it frequently as decent bass gear is harder to come by for us bass players - certainly a lack of stock from the likes of the mainstream high street outlets - it's really the only way to get to try out gear properly.

Though thanks to shops like Bass Merchant, Bass Direct and the Gallery - at least we still have one or two 'bass only' outlets out there!!

I shudder when I think of how much gear I have bought and sold in the last 20 odd years! OUCH!!!

[Dood]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='701622' date='Jan 5 2010, 02:16 PM']I must admit some of the really lightweight amps do lack the tone...but thats just me. I like a big powerful vintage rock tone, but I also like the smooth fast and warm Markbass tone....as it has massive lows with such tiny amp.[/quote]

I've found that with some of the lightweight amps, they use a selling point that they have a 'flat frequency response'. That I feel is where the problem is - it maybe fine for a bass with big fat chunky tone pickups and a load of EQ going on before you get to the amp - but what makes other amps sound more interesting (read as fatter, ballsy, creamy - whatever) is their non-linearity in the frequency curve. A hump of gain at 100Hz is gonna make any bass plugged in sound fatter - or a scooped cut of gain at 400Hz make it sound deeper - but to be honest - in my search for nice gear - flat response has always sounded - well - abit lifeless in comparison to what I prefer to call 'HiFi' sound. (That pleasing 'smiley face EQ shape!!) I agree that the MarkBass gear sounds great - I love the VPF PLFE LE FE errr... whatever the controls are called! They did exactly what I like - added that deep and fat curve to the tone, with sparkling highs.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='701622' date='Jan 5 2010, 02:16 PM']The RH450 is the closest Ive ever heard a micro sound like a tube amp. So much I made myself skint to buy one. But, its not hugely light....its about 10lbs, but it feels substantial. Some of these micros probably weigh less than a large effects pedal. Like the obsession with stupidy small phones, it seems the market balanced out with a larger size but better features (iphone, etc etc).[/quote]

Awesome! yes! A fantastic amp. Had I have not already owned a TC spectral compressor and TC effects (Thus rendering the preamp section useless) - I would have picked one up straight away.. ahh - I owned the MarkBass F1 too - so the TC unfortunately wouldn't have won me over on weight either! errkk!!


[quote name='Musicman20' post='701622' date='Jan 5 2010, 02:16 PM']I think the obsession with lightweight and complete accuracy/no colour of tone, actually led me to realise thats not for everyone. I tried it...and didnt really see the massive deal with it. Maybe it because of the tones I like, and the music I listen to.
For instance, Ive always wanted a Warwick, but I tried one 'on', as well as a Spector, and they just do not suit me. Im an idiot because I cant see past the vintage style of basses.[/quote]

I think there is probably a happy medium somewhere with 'lightweight gear' - in design especially - instead of companies trying to find the lightest flimsiest wood and throw in the cheapest wimpy neo speakers - there will hopefully be more sitting down and comparing what sounds great against the new technologies to see how to make the best of the two ideals.


[quote name='Musicman20' post='701622' date='Jan 5 2010, 02:16 PM']Each to their own though. Thats the fun![/quote]
Absolutely! I love looking for and playing new gear - just a shame my 'pocket' isn't quote deep enough to hang on to all my favourites!