In ear monitoring using noise cancelling earphones?

[stevebasshead]

We're not a hugely loud band by any means, we're a 4 piece and our on-stage is balanced around the drummer and we're all mic'd or di'd through the PA, nothing is backline only.

Nonetheless our singer is struggling, even with in-ear monitors, but he'll admit himself that he needs to hear tons and tons of his own voice, probably way more than most singers, before he feels comfortable. So...does anyone have any experience of using noise cancelling in-ear phones instead of the normal buds that come with in-ear systems? Are they able to cope with the on-stage volume of a band or are they more for domestic type noise environments?

[color="#0000FF"]<<Edited for clarity>> I'm not talking about noise isolating ones, it's specifically noise [b]cancelling [/b][i][/i]ones, the ones that use a reverse-phase signal of external noise to cancel out noise. The buds my singer's used already block a huge amount of external noise but the band still gets picked up in his vocal mic (SM58 wireless jobby IIRC) and of course it's then fed to his in ears. It's this that causes his problems.

The way I'm looking at it is this - noise [b]cancelling [/b][i][/i] in-ear buds will pick up the external on-stage noise and remove [i]that [/i]from what gets played in his in-ears. i.e. It will remove the band noise from the "band noise+vocal" that his vocal mic is sending to his in-ears, leaving more or less just the vocal if you see what I mean?[/color]

Ta in advance,
Steve.

Edited January 6, 2010 by stevebasshead

[Maverick]

At Alice in Chains last month, I forgot my earplugs (£20 Elacin jobs) so put in my headphone (£20 Klipsch noise blocking jobs) instead, I'd guess they were just only slightly less effective than my earplugs would have been at simply blocking noise, although the frequency response was different. I'd have had no problem listening to my iPod had I wanted to, for example. I was tempted during the supports!

You can get custom molded earplugs with in ear monitor attachments, but they're bloody expensive.
[url="http://www.audiorelief.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=a67f1dc18494465602f71d72b1dbdc5f"]http://www.audiorelief.co.uk/shop/index.ph...2f71d72b1dbdc5f[/url]

[OutToPlayJazz]

In short, yes they're a great idea. I bought a set of Sennheiser inner earphones for monitoring across the system on the job I'm on at the moment. They cancel out enough of the drummer, the trumpet & sax so that I can concentrate on the feed from my bass, the stage mics, the two piano/keys channels & the click track. They don't block 100% of the sound out, but enough to allow you to concentrate on what you need to hear as opposed to being deafened by egotistical drummers. I assume the little rubber plungers would have the same effect on the sound produced by moronic guitarists, too

Edited January 5, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[Doddy]

I use a pair of Shure SLC's (I think) for my in ear moniors and they are great.
They cut out a load of outside noise and don't distort or sound tinny.

[stevebasshead]

Cheers guys. I should clarify though, I don't think I was clear enough in my first post. I'm not talking about noise isolating ones, it's specifically noise [b]cancelling [/b][i][/i]ones, the ones that use a reverse-phase signal of external noise to cancel out noise. The buds my singer's used already block a huge amount of external noise but the band still gets picked up in his vocal mic (SM58 wireless jobby IIRC) and of course it's then fed to his in ears. It's this that causes his problems.

The way I'm looking at it is this - noise [b]cancelling [/b][i][/i] in-ear buds will pick up the external on-stage noise and remove [i]that [/i]from what gets played in his in-ears. i.e. It will remove the band noise from the "band noise+vocal" that his vocal mic is sending to his in-ears, leaving more or less just the vocal if you see what I mean?

[crez5150]

To be honest this will not work as you want it to.... These type of products are really designed to cut out continuous frequencies such as jet engine noise, train noise etc.... Your singer would be better off having some ear-moulds made for him and then using an ambient microphone on stage also fed to his mix

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='crez5150' post='702612' date='Jan 6 2010, 11:18 AM']To be honest this will not work as you want it to.... These type of products are really designed to cut out continuous frequencies such as jet engine noise, train noise etc.... Your singer would be better off having some ear-moulds made for him and then using an ambient microphone on stage also fed to his mix[/quote]
As I understand it they don't target specific frequencies, continuous or otherwise, or have I misunderstood? They pick up the ambient sound, phase reverse it and mix it into the signal going to the headphones/buds thus cancelling out whatever ambient noise would otherwise bleed past the phones directly into the ears.

One of the other options I'm considering actually is an ambient mic [i]but phase reversed[/i] to jury rig a noise cancelling set up for him. Depends on a couple of things, whether our engineers desk has a phase reverse switch and balancing the volume level of the ambient mic to successfully cancel out the band noise that's being picked up by the vocal mic.

[chris_b]

A more directional mic might exclude the "bleed" from the band and improve the vocal monitoring? Or a better fold back speaker for the singer with just his voice in it, to reinforce the vocal fold back around him?

[crez5150]

[quote name='stevebasshead' post='702625' date='Jan 6 2010, 11:27 AM']As I understand it they don't target specific frequencies, continuous or otherwise, or have I misunderstood? They pick up the ambient sound, phase reverse it and mix it into the signal going to the headphones/buds thus cancelling out whatever ambient noise would otherwise bleed past the phones directly into the ears.

One of the other options I'm considering actually is an ambient mic [i]but phase reversed[/i] to jury rig a noise cancelling set up for him. Depends on a couple of things, whether our engineers desk has a phase reverse switch and balancing the volume level of the ambient mic to successfully cancel out the band noise that's being picked up by the vocal mic.[/quote]

You're correct in what you say but due to the high spl on stage they are not effective enough.... Company I work for looked at building an IEM system with them but it wasn't a goer

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='chris_b' post='702649' date='Jan 6 2010, 11:43 AM']A more directional mic might exclude the "bleed" from the band and improve the vocal monitoring? Or a better fold back speaker for the singer with just his voice in it, to reinforce the vocal fold back around him?[/quote]
Aye, it's one of the things we're looking at. His mic is (I think) supercardiod which only leaves hypercardioid to go to. Possibly also one of those "gun" mics I think they're referred to which are highly directional but usually designed to pick up sounds from far away. I'm not sure if they would be suitable on stage but if anyone knows?...

[quote name='crez5150' post='702650' date='Jan 6 2010, 11:44 AM']You're correct in what you say but due to the high spl on stage they are not effective enough.... Company I work for looked at building an IEM system with them but it wasn't a goer[/quote]
Cheers, yes that's exactly the sort of info I was looking for, I had a feeling it might be the case but was hoping someone was already using/had tried them to confirm one way or the other.

[jonsmith]

I'm amazed that isolating ones are not enough, especially if he's only got his own vocals in his IEM mix. Has he got them in his ears properly? Unless he's an extremely quiet vocalist, I would expect the spillage from the rest of the band into his mic to only be really noticeable when he's not singing, if your on stage levels are as reasonable as you imply.

Silly question perhaps, but if he cancels out the band completely, how will he know where he is in the song/what pitch to sing at?

[stevebasshead]

We're all amazed as well, and yep, only his own vocals go into his in ears but it's the band that bleeds into his mic and hence to his in-ears which is where his problem lies. He's not a quiet singer either, he's got a really strong voice. None of us can understand it but it's been like this for the 4+ years we've been gigging.

[crez5150]

[quote name='stevebasshead' post='702676' date='Jan 6 2010, 12:03 PM']Aye, it's one of the things we're looking at. His mic is (I think) supercardiod which only leaves hypercardioid to go to. Possibly also one of those "gun" mics I think they're referred to which are highly directional but usually designed to pick up sounds from far away. I'm not sure if they would be suitable on stage but if anyone knows?...


Cheers, yes that's exactly the sort of info I was looking for, I had a feeling it might be the case but was hoping someone was already using/had tried them to confirm one way or the other.[/quote]


Supercardioid should work better for this application..... do not use a gun mic for this though as that will cause more problems than you already have.

[mcgraham]

I've sung with singers like this. It's one thing to say you can't hear yourself, it's another to say that everyone else is too loud and 'can you turn down so I can hear myself better'. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case here, just that this irritates me no end, as the gear/setup/other musicians are not the problem - they are!

Some questions: How far away from the mic is the singer? What's his mic technique like? How close is the mic positioned to other gear? Is there a floor monitor as well that could be bleeding in? How much of the rest of the band mix is coming through his monitor feed?

[mcgraham]

Incidentally, as a comic anecdote, I play with one singer who defaults to 'can you please turn down you're still too loud' when I'm not even coming through the monitor or the PA (this is on an acoustic guitar by the way).

They're always very polite but so incredibly frustrating.

Edited January 6, 2010 by mcgraham

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='702736' date='Jan 6 2010, 12:38 PM']I've sung with singers like this. It's one thing to say you can't hear yourself, it's another to say that everyone else is too loud and 'can you turn down so I can hear myself better'. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case here, just that this irritates me no end, as the gear/setup/other musicians are not the problem - they are!

Some questions: How far away from the mic is the singer? What's his mic technique like? How close is the mic positioned to other gear? Is there a floor monitor as well that could be bleeding in? How much of the rest of the band mix is coming through his monitor feed?[/quote]
To be fair to him he doesn't often ask us to turn down, only if it's really bad (i.e. in an acoustically bad boomy or reverby room). He's right on top of the mic, the mic position on stage varys depending on how much space we have, some pubs are better than others. He doesn't have a floor monitor and only his own vocal is fed to his in-ears (+the band bleed via his mic). Myself, the guitarist and drummer do have monitors, however, I only have my own vocal in mine, guitarist has his acoustic guitar in his (only used on one number) and the drummer has the singers vocal and I assume his own vocal. We get by fine with the onstage volume and can hear enough of each other without needing anything else in the monitors. I think even our singer will admit that the problem is mostly his own but it's no less real. He compensates by singing louder which strains his voice and gives him awful headaches too which is why we're trying to get something sorted.

Does the mic angle make a difference? If it's parallel to the floor is it more likely to pick up reflections of the band sound bouncing off the back walls? Would it be better angling it up at 45 degrees (or more?) and singing across it rather than directly into it head on?