500w 8ohms options?

[gnasher1993]

I'm looking to get a 2nd, more powerful rig. At the moment, I've got a Genz Benz Shuttle 3 with 8" cab at the moment which is 175 watts. That's plenty loud of enough for most venues I've played but have struggled at a couple when I haven't had PA support.

I've got quite a few gigs booked for February/March so looking to get a 2nd rig with the money from those.

I was planning on getting the Markbass Little Mark 800 so I'm looking for some cabinet options. The smaller/lighter, the better, but 500 watts handling (minimum) at 8 ohms is the only requirement I have.

Just trying to find some options at the moment. My budget is probably about £700, I think that's reasonable isn't it?

Thanks in advance,

AJ

[phil.i.stein]

if you have a genz already, you may want something different, but i think the new shuttle 9.0 is 500w at 8 ohms. it comes in black too, v.sexy !

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='706628' date='Jan 9 2010, 02:56 PM']if you have a genz already, you may want something different, but i think the new shuttle 9.0 is 500w at 8 ohms. it comes in black too, v.sexy ![/quote]

That was my other option but thought I could go for something different. It's around the same price point as the MB so I'm still considering it.

[GreeneKing]

Why 8ohms?

A 4ohm cab will allow you use the amp up to it's max output.

Unless of course you already have an 8 Ohm cab you want to pair it with (as opposed to a 8" cab)

I'd have thought that a lightweight 4 ohm 2x12 would suit your purpose better?

Or have I missed something?

Peter

[chris_b]

[quote name='gnasher1993' post='706621' date='Jan 9 2010, 02:49 PM']....I'm looking to get a 2nd, more powerful rig. At the moment, I've got a Genz Benz Shuttle 3 with 8" cab at the moment which is 175 watts. That's plenty loud of enough for most venues I've played but have struggled at a couple when I haven't had PA support....[/quote]
If 175 watts and an 8" speaker are good for "most" of your gigs I don't really understand why you need to jump to an 800 watt amp! Why don't you add another cab (Genz NEOX 12 or STL12) and make use of the full 300 watts in your current rig?

Edited January 9, 2010 by chris_b

[gnasher1993]

I think 800 watts is going to be too loud. Or isn't there any volume difference in volume between 500 watts/8 ohms and 800 watts/4 ohms? I'm not really upto scratch on all this ohm business. I just know that the amp can put 500 watts into an 8 ohm cab and 800 watts into a 4 ohm cab. I've no idea what that relates to volume-wise.

Sorry, I'm not too good at this physics lark .

[quote name='chris_b' post='706644' date='Jan 9 2010, 03:18 PM']If 175 watts and an 8" speaker are good for "most" of your gigs I don't really understand why you need to jump to an 800 watt amp! Why don't you add another cab (Genz NEOX 12 or STL12) and make use of the full 300 watts in your current rig?[/quote]

I thought it was a jump to a 500 watt amp. Also, I want to be able to play without PA support.

The 175 watt into an 8" is fine for gigs with PA reinforcement. I've played gigs without and haven't been able to hear myself/be heard.

If I had an extension cabinet to my current rig will it increase the volume alot?

Edited January 9, 2010 by gnasher1993

[phil.i.stein]

i'm no expert either, but if you get another cab with a similar frequency response, you should get the 300w at 4 ohms which would make it twice as loud. you may want a different size cone though as suggested..
Alex is the man to ask..

Edited January 9, 2010 by phil.i.stein

[gnasher1993]

Why a different sized cone?

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='gnasher1993' post='706656' date='Jan 9 2010, 03:33 PM']Why a different sized cone?[/quote],
i'm thinking that you may benefit from more sub and might not need to drive the 8" to the limit, but again not 100% sure..

[gnasher1993]

The 8" is really good to me across the full frequency spectrum.

Not sure if I need a cab with better frequency response.

Any other benefits of a bigger speaker?

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='gnasher1993' post='706668' date='Jan 9 2010, 03:41 PM']The 8" is really good to me across the full frequency spectrum.

Not sure if I need a cab with better frequency response.

Any other benefits of a bigger speaker?[/quote]
moving more air ?
i'd best duck out of this one now, as i'm blagging it..
i'm a phillistine as my name suggests..
try asking Alex at barefaced though, he's very helpful.

Edited January 9, 2010 by phil.i.stein

[GreeneKing]

A 4ohm cab doesn't mean that you have to put out 750Watts

There's a knob called 'volume' or something similar Have the cab at 4ohms gives you all the options, from quiet to 750watts, otherwise why not just buy a cheaper 500w amp?

Peter

[absentmindeduk]

The larger the surface area of your speaker, the more air it will shift.
-More air being moved = better lows and more volume.

If you are currently running your amp at 8 Ohms into 1 cab and you get another 8 Ohm cab, it will be much louder.

The calculation is basically;

Total Ohmage of each cab / Number of cabs = Total Impedance (Total Ohmage). -(Assuming all cabs are the same rating)

So 8 / 2 = 4 Ohm load.

The lower the ohmage, the less resistance there is to the signal output from your Genz 3.0, thus less ohms = higher volume.

Hope thats of some use!

Andy

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='706689' date='Jan 9 2010, 04:00 PM']The larger the surface area of your speaker, the more air it will shift.
-More air being moved = better lows and more volume.

If you are currently running your amp at 8 Ohms into 1 cab and you get another 8 Ohm cab, it will be much louder.

The calculation is basically;

Total Ohmage of each cab / Number of cabs = Total Impedance (Total Ohmage). -(Assuming all cabs are the same rating)

So 8 / 2 = 4 Ohm load.

The lower the ohmage, the less resistance there is to the signal output from your Genz 3.0, thus less ohms = higher volume.

Hope thats of some use![/quote]

Very helpful, thanks. How about a 210? Would that be a good addition to the Genz? I'm not keen on the sound of larger speakers. I play upright as well and find that the larger speakers sound too muddy (especially 1x15s).

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='706686' date='Jan 9 2010, 03:58 PM']A 4ohm cab doesn't mean that you have to put out 750Watts

There's a knob called 'volume' or something similar Have the cab at 4ohms gives you all the options, from quiet to 750watts, otherwise why not just buy a cheaper 500w amp?[/quote]

If I get a 4 ohm cab, does that mean I can't add an extension cab at a later date? Looking at Andy's info. 4 / 2 = 2 ohm load. Can you get amps that will run at 2ohms?

Oh and thanks for the tip on the volume knob I'll bare that in mind.

[chris_b]

It seems to me that you've taken a wrong turn if you're looking to upgrade from a 175 watt amp and 1x8 cab into 2 ohm 800 watt amp territory! Unless you've joined a loud rock band?

You could use your current amp with an Aguilar GS112 or DB112. These cabs are larger than your 1x8 so you'll get more volume from your 175 watts and you'll get a much better tone. These 12" cabs are full range with clear highs and a full fat bass and they don't sound muddy at all. The Aguilar will also sound good with your upright. You could further upgrade to a second matching 112 which will sound great.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='chris_b' post='706707' date='Jan 9 2010, 04:26 PM']It seems to me that you've taken a wrong turn if you're looking to upgrade from a 175 watt amp and 1x8 cab into 2 ohm 800 watt amp territory! Unless you've joined a loud rock band?[/quote]

I think you may have misunderstood. I'm not looking to [i]upgrade[/i], the GB rig will be staying and will be still be used. I'm not looking for a 2 ohm amp, that was just a question asking if they even existed. I've just joined a shoegaze band but we're not playing gigs, could be but not for a while yet.

So if I do get a new rig...better to be looking at amps that are rated 500 watts at 4 ohms? I've always ignored the 4 ohm rating as I've not known what it meant. Now I do .

I've just been looking at:

amp + 8 ohm cab = sound

So...just to make sure I'm understanding this right (using the stats from the LM 800):

LM 800 -> 8 ohm cab = 500 watts

LM 800 -> 4 ohm cab = 800 watts

LM 800 -> 2 x 8 ohm cabs = 800 watts

LM 800 -> 2 x 4 ohm cabs = wont work?

Is that about right?

[quote name='chris_b' post='706707' date='Jan 9 2010, 04:26 PM']You could use your current amp with an Aguilar GS112 or DB112. These cabs are larger than your 1x8 so you'll get more volume from your 175 watts and you'll get a much better tone. These 12" cabs are full range with clear highs and a full fat bass and they don't sound muddy at all. The Aguilar will also sound good with your upright. You could further upgrade to a second matching 112 which will sound great.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with the tone from my 1x8. I won't be changing it. It's staying whatever happens. New amp, new cab, either way, chances are I'll be keeping it. I'll have a look at the Aguilars, I've heard good things about them.

[phil.i.stein]

whilst there are some knowledgable bods here, can i quickly ask something related to this ?
i heard once that more ohms = tighter bass.
is there any truth to this ?
sorry, i don't want to hijack this thread, but i'm guessing that you may want to know if this is the case.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='706727' date='Jan 9 2010, 04:46 PM']whilst there are some knowledgable bods here, can i quickly ask something related to this ?
i heard once that more ohms = tighter bass.
is there any truth to this ?
sorry, i don't want to hijack this thread, but i'm guessing that you may want to know if this is the case. [/quote]

Yes, definitely want an answer to that one! Then I won't be made to feel like such an idiot for looking for an 8 ohm cab .

[absentmindeduk]

To answer this part of your query...

LM 800 -> 2 x 4 ohm cabs = LM800 goes KA-BOOM!

lol.

You can get heads that'll do 2Ohms like the all tube Ampeg SVT Pro series or Mesa Boogie MPulse, but this generally means you can run like 4 x 8 Ohm cabs eg. 4x 410 cabs. See example of some crazy americans... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYGierxTUjE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYGierxTUjE[/url]
-So unless you're doing collosal stadiums or something, don't even go there! lol.

Dunno about the tighter bass thing...
I used to have exactly the same rig through an 8Ohm Ampeg 4x10, now have 2x 8Ohm Mark Bass Cabs. Both have a tight low end.

I would just say it depends upon the cab you're using.
-If you push a 500W 4 Ohm cab to 490W it stands to reason it isn't going to peform as well as it would if you say only put 250W through it.

Generally as amps put out less wattage at a higher Ohmage, you're less likely to push an 8Ohm cab to the limit I guess...

[gnasher1993]

Thanks for all your help .

At the moment, I'm thinking of adding an 8 ohm 2x10 cab to my current rig.

[absentmindeduk]

[quote name='gnasher1993' post='706801' date='Jan 9 2010, 05:43 PM']Thanks for all your help .

At the moment, I'm thinking of adding an 8 ohm 2x10 cab to my current rig.[/quote]

The Markbass 2x10's may be a good option?
-There is someone on the cabs forum selling a second hand 2x10 for around £350, otherwise new they'll set you back about £550.
Though they're 400W @ 8 Ohm.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='absentmindeduk' post='706808' date='Jan 9 2010, 05:46 PM']The Markbass 2x10's may be a good option?
-There is someone on the cabs forum selling a second hand 2x10 for around £350, otherwise new they'll set you back about £550.
Though they're 400W @ 8 Ohm.[/quote]

There's someone local to me that has a traveller 210. The 102P. Is that a good option?

Is it a problem that it's only going to be getting 175 watts?

[GreeneKing]

I wasn't being entirely sarcastic with the 'volume' comment

Pairing an 8 ohm 2 x 10 with an 8 ohm 1 x 8 won't be very balanced. Half of your amp's power will be going to each cab working the 1 x 8 hard and the 2 x 10 will be barely ticking over.

I don't understand your reasoning. You only need one rig to cover all the bases. From your description of your needs 800w (750 in the specs) is overkill.

Take my rig, a 450w into 4 ohm amp and two 1 x 12 8 ohm cabs rated at 300w each. First one man's 5000w watts isn't another's. Amp ratings vary and I have a back up 500w amp that's no where near as loud and my 450w one.

By using the amp with either one or both cabs I have one balanced rig that does it all pretty much. With one cab I can even use it for very quiet home practice if I turn the volme right down. I've also done pub gigs with just the one cab. Using both cabs gives oodles of 'go'.

Peter

[Musicman20]

Beware volume ratings. It might not be as 'loud' as you think. One manufacturers 500W is not as loud as another's 300W! Genz, unfortunately, never seem to be as loud as they state. Cf this to MB, or more recently, the TC Elec RH450.

Sometimes its right to get a good 4 ohm cabinet....some 8 ohm cabinets will get you through depending on size. Ive mainly used 8 ohm cabs on their own with a loud punk band, and had no volume issues.

[phil.i.stein]

although this may not immediately answer your question,it may help a little with understanding the theory.
[url="http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:amps:impedance_and_wattage"]http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:amps:impedance_and_wattage[/url]
you should be able to find out a cab's SPL from the manufacturer.

Edited January 10, 2010 by phil.i.stein