We Play Through a 4000w PA

[Phaedrus]

Hi,

I've been doing up some stage plan mock-ups for a new pub covers band. It's a 5 piece (guitar-playing singer, singing guitarist, singing keyboard player, singing bassist, drummer) and it's clear that things are gonna by pretty tight for the band in the typical pubs we'll be playing.

So this got me thinking about how compact a bass amp I could get away with. I've been aiming for an amp of somewhere around 300w - 450w and a 4x10 cab, something like the Peavey Tour 450 & 410 or Warwick 3.3 & WCA410 Pro.

My guitarist has the obligatory 100w Marshall valve amp + 4x12 and loves it - I wouldn't even ask him to downsize (even though there are plenty of reasons he should), and he loves being LOUD (what's that I hear you say? "A loud guitarist? Surely not?!" Yes, it's true . . .).

The singer will be using a 100w solid state 2x12 Marshall combo, which is also very loud.

Drummer is also loud.

My main concern is the big picture - I want the punters to get a well balanced mix out front. I don't want the guitar amps to be so loud as to bleed over the PA sound - I'm sure y'all know that's bad.

But I also want the band to be able to hear themselves, and each other, on stage, which is where my question comes in.

Given the potential for very loud on-stage guitar & drum volumes, should I stick with the amp/cab option (for the safety net aspect) or would I get away with a neat 2x10 combo of 300w or so (Marshall, Nemesis, GK, Laney, Kustom - there are plenty to choose from)? My amp will be mainly for on-stage monitoring (for the whole band as well as myself).


Thanks for any replies,

Mark

Edited January 9, 2010 by Phaedrus

[d-basser]

For pub crowds I have been using a barefaced midget and either a genz benz shuttle head or a orange terror. Both of these let me keep up with a 7 piece folk punk band with and without PA (without I reached half volume) and the whole rig and bass can easily be carried: I actually walk to gig or take the underground

[Delberthot]

you need this



for sale by me and full of valvey solid-state goodness. you could add the series 6 1518 cab that I am selling as well for even more of that lovely valve sound

[JTUK]

4000w of PA and a typical pub....?? pointless putting anything through it if your gtrs play loud with 100watts...IME..
If you have someone to mix the PA he will not be able to affect the FOH sound ...the gtrs will simply bypass it...and you'll be hearing the backline outfront whether you want to or not.. This will be true in a typical village hall size as well, IME

No point having a band through the PA if some guys ignore the whole point of it...which is to allow a mix of the instruments.

My 2p...

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='JTUK' post='707422' date='Jan 10 2010, 10:19 AM']4000w of PA and a typical pub....?? pointless putting anything through it if your gtrs play loud with 100watts...IME..
If you have someone to mix the PA he will not be able to affect the FOH sound ...the gtrs will simply bypass it...and you'll be hearing the backline outfront whether you want to or not.. This will be true in a typical village hall size as well, IME

No point having a band through the PA if some guys ignore the whole point of it...which is to allow a mix of the instruments.

My 2p...[/quote]

yup.

with that size PA everyone should be going through it, with little amps on stage for monitoring only. Otherwise for pubs it is a waste of time hauling all that PA gear around.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='707438' date='Jan 10 2010, 10:40 AM']yup.

with that size PA everyone should be going through it, with little amps on stage for monitoring only. Otherwise for pubs [b][i]it is a waste of time hauling all that PA gear around[/i].[/b][/quote]

Which makes it difficult to ensure a balanced mix out front.

I'd prefer for us all to be using backline amps that were just enough to deal with the drummer. But this guy hits hard and has loud drums . . .

Everyone is going through the PA, though the guitar is louder than the PA, much to the curiosity of all - how can a 100w instrument amp be louder than a 4000w PA?!

Mark

Edited January 11, 2010 by Phaedrus

[Mog]

4000 watts in a pub! Ditch the backline and use monitors. Levels can be sorted easily with some friends filling in as sound techs. Just get to the venue earlier and have the soundcheck finished before the punters come in. Once everything is level soundwise its just a matter of using the master on the PA to reach the most suitable volume.

[gazhowe]

I'm playing through a 500w Markbass MoMark & Berg AE410 with my pub covers band. We also use a 4k pa. Our drummer and guitarist are loud onstage and, at their request, I recently switched from low backline and through the pa to 'backline only'. It's not how I would normally go but it's worked well so far for us and there is always the option to change if needed. The pa is being worked less hard and the 4k provides headroom should it be needed. You wouldn't play your car stereo on maximum volume just because it's available.

[Adrenochrome]

A 4000 watt PA in a reasonable sized pub is not necessarily overkill. This is similar to what my current band uses and my last band used. There are a lot of awkward shaped pubs where having a beefy FOH and moderate backline levels will help get the sound round the pub properly and you all hear each other onstage, especially helping with monitor levels for vocals etc. If the guitards won't turn down, you'll never get anything close to your optimum sound out front.

[Bigwan]

I've played with half stacks and hard hitting drummers with loud drums (most drummers don't know how to play soft, or dynamically in my experience). That way usually ends up sounding like a dirge with everyone fighting to hear themselves, and possibly damaging their hearing in the process. The best 'sounding' band I've been in stuck to quiet on stage, loud out front and it was a joy I'd never before experienced - being able to hear everything so clearly (although sometimes it was a curse - especially with our singer's dodgy voice! Was able to hear every bum note!). Drummer wasn't that hard a hitter though... he also moved all electronic while I was in the band. Another revelation! Next rig purchase for me is a set of in-ear monitors.

If it were me in your band I'd try to talk the guitarists into smaller valve amps at least. There's no need for 100 watt valve amps on stages smaller than stadium size. I'd have to agree that carrying 4k of PA and using backline like that is a nonsense...

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='708520' date='Jan 11 2010, 08:47 AM']If it were me in your band I'd try to talk the guitarists into smaller valve amps at least. There's no need for 100 watt valve amps on stages smaller than stadium size. I'd have to agree that carrying 4k of PA and using backline like that is a nonsense...[/quote]
Couldn't agree more.

[RussFM]

Sounds like you need a TecAmp S212. Small footprint, big sound. Love mine, and for once I can say - this one's a keeper!!

[lemmywinks]

My last band had a very loud drummer with an old-school loud kit, he totally governed the on-stage volume and thus was responsible for poor on-stage sound. Adding a "big Marshall stack = better sound" guitarist into the mix is asking for trouble.

Maybe ask your drummer to get a more modern, quieter kit? Also ask the guitarists to have their amps facing sideways so they don't affect the FOH?

I appreciate these two are easier said than done!
I don't know why guitarists are so reluctant to downsize. Our original guitarist used a big Marshall stack and had the worst sound i have ever heard. The best guitar sound i have heard came from an Orange Rocker 30 combo, completely owned the Marshall

By far the best solution is in-ears if you can afford them, drummers play quiter with them too so the whole band will be quieter

[51m0n]

Guitarists in your band need to downsize massivley. PA power is perfectly reasonable. Just cos you have a big PA doesnt mean you need to flog its knackers off, run it at a sensible volume and it will sound fantastic.

100w half stack is for stadia mate, not pubs. Any claim regarding tone is utter nonsense too, these days. Guitarists are hard to change, but if you guys want to sound good, hear what you are doing and impress the punters they will have to trust you on this one.

Get them to get Cornford style 5-20 watt amps - tone to die for. Mic them and use their foldback to get them an onstage volume they like (did I mention you need to be able to run individual foldback mixes for vocals and each guitar? you do). Now set them right for FOH. Make sure the guitar amps are pointing straight at the guitarists heads (low on the floor angled back like a monitor is fine) - the amps arent there for the audience directly at all!

Drummer may actually do better with a mic in the kick, and one overhead, just to lift him forward in the mix a tiny bit, not to be louder per se, but just to help a tad with presence. Also means (*if you have really good monitors*) that you can bleed a tiny bit of kick into the monitors too, can help tightne the band up a lot.

If you need a small footprint go for vertically stacked 210s, or 112s, the height of the 210s is a massive bonus, and you still move as much air. 400w is about right IMO with reasonably sensitive cabs, and enough cone area & excursion. That way you arent asking too much of your amp, so it will sound better and also stay cooler, which will have an added bonus of stressing it less.

By all means mic/DI the bass too, although I've not found a PA monitor yet that can handle real bass at anything other than the lowest levels (hence you still needing the big wattage so you are heard on stage)

Vocals should be loud enough to be heard absolutely clearly, and with decent monitors and something like a dbx DriveRack there will be absolutely no feedback at all.

If you really want to sound polished nothing else will do. The only issue is you will need someone running sound or some very detailed rehearsals and soundchecks for the first few goes. This stuff is not trivial to set up right IMO.

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='51m0n' post='709964' date='Jan 12 2010, 01:27 PM']Guitarists in your band need to downsize massivley. PA power is perfectly reasonable. Just cos you have a big PA doesnt mean you need to flog its knackers off, run it at a sensible volume and it will sound fantastic.

100w half stack is for stadia mate, not pubs. Any claim regarding tone is utter nonsense too, these days. Guitarists are hard to change, but if you guys want to sound good, hear what you are doing and impress the punters they will have to trust you on this one.

Get them to get Cornford style 5-20 watt amps - tone to die for. Mic them and use their foldback to get them an onstage volume they like (did I mention you need to be able to run individual foldback mixes for vocals and each guitar? you do). Now set them right for FOH. Make sure the guitar amps are pointing straight at the guitarists heads (low on the floor angled back like a monitor is fine) - the amps arent there for the audience directly at all!

Drummer may actually do better with a mic in the kick, and one overhead, just to lift him forward in the mix a tiny bit, not to be louder per se, but just to help a tad with presence. Also means (*if you have really good monitors*) that you can bleed a tiny bit of kick into the monitors too, can help tightne the band up a lot.

If you need a small footprint go for vertically stacked 210s, or 112s, the height of the 210s is a massive bonus, and you still move as much air. 400w is about right IMO with reasonably sensitive cabs, and enough cone area & excursion. That way you arent asking too much of your amp, so it will sound better and also stay cooler, which will have an added bonus of stressing it less.

By all means mic/DI the bass too, although I've not found a PA monitor yet that can handle real bass at anything other than the lowest levels (hence you still needing the big wattage so you are heard on stage)

Vocals should be loud enough to be heard absolutely clearly, and with decent monitors and something like a dbx DriveRack there will be absolutely no feedback at all.

If you really want to sound polished nothing else will do. The only issue is you will need someone running sound or some very detailed rehearsals and soundchecks for the first few goes. [b][i]This stuff is not trivial to set up right IMO.[/i][/b][/quote]

We have great drum mics: all Audix - D6 kick, i5 snare, D2 & D4 toms. No overhead mics - his Sabian cymbals are all loud. The mics on the drums are more to facilitate a balanced mix of everything than to amplify them.

We have SM57s on the guitar amps.

We have the DriveRack PA (sort of a DriveRack lite, but it does have the feedback eliminator).

We run the PA as an aux-fed sub system, so it's all pretty clean. The DriveRack PA is in the mains signal path, but not the subs. I'm pretty sure any feedback problems we've ever had were caused by pushing the monitors beyond their ability in order to hear our own vocals over the guitars & drums.

We had a real moment of light at rehearsal last night. The loud guitarist suggested turning his amp 180[sup]o[/sup], to face all the way backwards - with it mic'd, there'd be little if any bleed of backline into FOH. We teased it out to a final intent to have both my bass amp and the main guitar amp turned 90[sup]o[/sup], facing in to the middle of the stage, so it'll be plenty loud for the band, but should have limited impact on FOH - the realisation seems to be growing that amp placement is as big a factor in all this as the number the volume knob is pointing at, or how many 12"s you're running (guitarist's stage name is . . . wait for it . . . Max Volume . . . ). I hope I'm not painting any of these guys as twats - they're great guys and good players and committed. It's just a general swing from focussing on personal volume to balanced overall mix that's taking place.

The term "money no option" could be used in relation to this guitarist, but he's not flippant with it - a new amall combo is probably not realistically on the cards, but I was really encouraged by the enthusiasm and commitment towards the big picture (FOH) being paramount.

The drummer has been talking about sorting the kit so that there's minimal boom from any drum. He's considering lighter cymbals too, though after spending the guts of €1000 this side of crimbo on the Audix mics, that'll be a long way down the road.

To your comment I've put in bold italics: FOH is paramount, and there seems to be a growing awareness with these guys that this is the case.

Light in the tunnel . . .

On the bass amp for me front, I just keep returning to the Tour 450 & Tour410 (or TVX410 if the Tour410 is too expensive). My dad had his TNT150 for 10 years, I've used it for 5 - it's been rock solid and pretty versatile for a 15". I trust Peavey, I guess.

Thanks for all your replies,

Mark

Edited January 14, 2010 by Phaedrus

[phatkat]

I have to say if I owned a pub and you guys turned with 100w half stacks and 4K of pa and you then mik'd everything you would only play my pub once.
A 4k pa is all well and good because its only as loud as you drive it and having acres of headroom is good, but a 100w valve guitar amp needs to be driven at a certain level or it sounds sh*t... so he's your problem!!!

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='phatkat' post='713837' date='Jan 15 2010, 02:58 PM']I have to say if I owned a pub and you guys turned with 100w half stacks and 4K of pa and you then mik'd everything you would only play my pub once.
[i][b]A 4k pa is all well and good because its only as loud as you drive it and having acres of headroom is good[/b][/i], but a 100w valve guitar amp needs to be driven at a certain level or it sounds sh*t... so he's your problem!!![/quote]

That's why we got the big PA - we've seen so many bands with weak PAs where there was no thump or power low down (kick drum & bass guitar), or things were on the limit of listenable because it was all being pushed well into the upper end of its capability. We wanted a PA that we knew we'd be able to push without the sound disintegrating.

The prospect of low-as-possible/loud-as-necessary on-stage volume, and the resulting potential for us all hearing our vocals clearly, and for clean FOH sound just excites me something fierce . . . Call me a nerd . . .

I do understand the joy of owning and playing through a 100w valve half-stack, and if I played guitar, I'd probably also aspire to something like that. For a guitarist who likes that set-up and has used it in every band he's been in, the prospect of arriving to play a gig with a liittle box like a 1x12 combo would probably make him feel less of a man, but I'm confident the proof would be in the pudding - the band would be more confident & comfortable while performing and FOH would be clean. Let the detractors mouth off all they want before the show, but be prepared to gobble up the humble pie aftwerwards . . .

So . . . [i]if[/i] the guitarists did downsize to something like decent 50-60w 1x12" valve combos (maybe even on angle-up stands?), and the drummer made efforts to reduce his volume (playing dynamics, damping/muting, etc), what would be an appropriate bass combo for me? I'm thinking that if we did this, our current monitors would probably fulfill their responsibilities comfortably.


Mark

[phatkat]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='715216' date='Jan 16 2010, 09:25 PM']That's why we got the big PA - we've seen so many bands with weak PAs where there was no thump or power low down (kick drum & bass guitar), or things were on the limit of listenable because it was all being pushed well into the upper end of its capability. We wanted a PA that we knew we'd be able to push without the sound disintegrating.

The prospect of low-as-possible/loud-as-necessary on-stage volume, and the resulting potential for us all hearing our vocals clearly, and for clean FOH sound just excites me something fierce . . . Call me a nerd . . .

I do understand the joy of owning and playing through a 100w valve half-stack, and if I played guitar, I'd probably also aspire to something like that. For a guitarist who likes that set-up and has used it in every band he's been in, the prospect of arriving to play a gig with a liittle box like a 1x12 combo would probably make him feel less of a man, but I'm confident the proof would be in the pudding - the band would be more confident & comfortable while performing and FOH would be clean. Let the detractors mouth off all they want before the show, but be prepared to gobble up the humble pie aftwerwards . . .

So . . . [i]if[/i] the guitarists did downsize to something like decent 50-60w 1x12" valve combos (maybe even on angle-up stands?), and the drummer made efforts to reduce his volume (playing dynamics, damping/muting, etc), what would be an appropriate bass combo for me? I'm thinking that if we did this, our current monitors would probably fulfill their responsibilities comfortably.


Mark[/quote]


yes thats fine but the point is for any gig a 50w valve amp is more than enough and linked to a 4x12 its shift plenty air with a lot less db... know what I mean?

G...

[Bigwan]

50 watts is still FAR too much. A 50 watt amp is not half as loud as a 100 watt amp. A 10 watt amp is half as loud as a 100 watt amp (all other factors being equal, like using the same cab, etc).

[LawrenceH]

I have to say I laughed out loud when I read the first post in this thread. You want a well-balanced tone, without dominant guitars, and you want a good stage sound, without bleed into FoH, and you're using 4x12" guitar cabs with a loud drummer and you're gigging in pubs...you want the moon on a stick! Or else a magic box which sucks sound out of the air...
Even if you're playing awkward, long rooms full of obstructions then a better set-up would be to use delay lines or an array. Seriously, you can't just keep adding more and more volume from different sources to balance things out. People's ears just start shutting down at a certain threshold, the more sound you add the worse it gets. Less volume and you will hear yourselves better and your ear damage will also be less severe. If, as seems likely given the kit they're using, some band members already have deficiency in their hearing, then they need to get used to using in ears. Too late to save their hearing but it'll save everyone else's and you'll get a better sound.
Ironically the one rig that I consider worth having a bit more power for is the bass (and maybe kick drum monitor) simply because those frequencies require such a lot more power and physical space to produce. With your set-up I'd say you'd have trouble getting enough bottom end even with a 500w 4x10", but that would be the least of the band's problems.
If all else fails in terms of persuasion, then if you can lug around some heavy stage cloth and hang it in loose folds behind the drummer it will help absorb a lot of the early reflections which will make things significantly less dreadful. For the guitarists, powersoaks on the amps so they can crank them to get the tone. If they just want the sheer volume, then in ears again are the only way they can have this without absolutely ruining front of house sound at 9 out of 10 gigs.

As an aside I just can't understand drummers with bad technique (and if they can't play quietly they don't have good technique) who then buy loud drums, WHY??? You sit RIGHT NEXT TO THEM when you're playing them, how loud do you think they need to be?! I sometimes wonder if they understand the concept of the microphone-amplifier-loudspeaker system.

Edited January 17, 2010 by LawrenceH

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='715216' date='Jan 16 2010, 09:25 PM']So . . . [i]if[/i] the guitarists did downsize to something like decent 50-60w 1x12" valve combos (maybe even on angle-up stands?), and the drummer made efforts to reduce his volume (playing dynamics, damping/muting, etc), what would be an appropriate bass combo for me? I'm thinking that if we did this, our current monitors would probably fulfill their responsibilities comfortably.


Mark[/quote]


Seriously man, Orange Rocker 30. Get him to at least try one, there's a strong possibility he'll have the revelation that an appropriately sized amp is actually much better than something which is going to be a compromise on tone and volume

Those little Cornford, Cornell, Top Hat etc. combos are all worth a look. If he's got some cash to spend then have a look at Brunetti amps:

[url="http://www.brunetti.it/index_en.php"]http://www.brunetti.it/index_en.php[/url]


I heard one of these in my LMS and my jaw hit the floor. The proprietor uses it as his demo amp to sell guitars, he sticks a Vintage strat copy through it and sounds like Dave Gilmour.

If he still wants to use the big amps then maybe a powerbrake or something similar would be useful?


EDIT: About an amp for you, i'd tend to go with a head and cab like these two:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=73828"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=73828[/url]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=73020"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=73020[/url]

The cab is in Ireland too
If you're after a combo then you'll have to decide if you want lightweight or not, that'll make a big difference to what you should have on the "must try" list

Beedster is selling his Mesa if you want something that'll put a smile on your face

Edited January 16, 2010 by lemmywinks

[Phaedrus]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='715287' date='Jan 16 2010, 11:05 PM']I have to say I laughed out loud when I read the first post in this thread. You want a well-balanced tone, without dominant guitars, and you want a good stage sound, without bleed into FoH, and you're using 4x12" guitar cabs with a loud drummer and you're gigging in pubs...you want the moon on a stick! Or else a magic box which sucks sound out of the air...
Even if you're playing awkward, long rooms full of obstructions then a better set-up would be to use delay lines or an array. [i][b]Seriously, you can't just keep adding more and more volume from different sources to balance things out.[/b][/i] People's ears just start shutting down at a certain threshold, the more sound you add the worse it gets.[b] [i]Less volume and you will hear yourselves better and your ear damage will also be less severe.[/i] [/b][/quote]

On the points in bold italics - I may be misunderstanding you here, but is that just a statement, or are you perceiveing from my posts that it's my intent to "just keep adding more and more volume from different sources to balance things out"? The whole crux of this thread is that I want to [i]lower[/i] our on-stage volume, not [i]raise[/i] it.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='715287' date='Jan 16 2010, 11:05 PM']If, as seems likely given the kit they're using, some band members already have deficiency in their hearing, then they need to get used to using in ears. Too late to save their hearing but it'll save everyone else's and you'll get a better sound.
Ironically the one rig that I consider worth having a bit more power for is the bass (and maybe kick drum monitor) simply because those frequencies require such a lot more power and physical space to produce.

With your set-up I'd say you'd have trouble getting enough bottom end even with a 500w 4x10", but that would be the least of the band's problems.

If all else fails in terms of persuasion, then if you can lug around some heavy stage cloth and hang it in loose folds behind the drummer it will help absorb a lot of the early reflections which will make things significantly less dreadful. For the guitarists, powersoaks on the amps so they can crank them to get the tone. If they just want the sheer volume, then in ears again are the only way they can have this without absolutely ruining front of house sound at 9 out of 10 gigs.

As an aside I just can't understand drummers with bad technique (and if they can't play quietly they don't have good technique) who then buy loud drums, WHY??? You sit RIGHT NEXT TO THEM when you're playing them, how loud do you think they need to be?! I sometimes wonder if they understand the concept of the microphone-amplifier-loudspeaker system.[/quote]


No deficiencies - they both just like to play loud. IMO, this pretty commom with some guys: when you start playing as a kid, you typically have crap cheap gear, and you aspire to getting what your heroes use (till you realise the cost), even if it's unsuitable for your application. You don't even consider that you'll be availing of PA support, so you play louder and use louder gear so you can be heard. It's basically down to you to make sure your amp is at the best level. And that sticks and persists into later projects.

I agree about bass getting a more powerful amp - LF saps more amp power than HF.


Mark

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='715357' date='Jan 17 2010, 12:40 AM']On the points in bold italics - I may be misunderstanding you here, but is that just a statement, or are you perceiveing from my posts that it's my intent to "just keep adding more and more volume from different sources to balance things out"? The whole crux of this thread is that I want to [i]lower[/i] our on-stage volume, not [i]raise[/i] it.




No deficiencies - they both just like to play loud. IMO, this pretty commom with some guys: when you start playing as a kid, you typically have crap cheap gear, and you aspire to getting what your heroes use (till you realise the cost), even if it's unsuitable for your application. You don't even consider that you'll be availing of PA support, so you play louder and use louder gear so you can be heard. It's basically down to you to make sure your amp is at the best level. And that sticks and persists into later projects.

I agree about bass getting a more powerful amp - LF saps more amp power than HF.


Mark[/quote]

No I really just meant the first post implied this to me and made me giggle - since in it you are asking what amp you need to match the band, but also say you won't ask the guitarist to downsize, yet you don't want guitar amp to dominate FoH! Other posters had talked about reducing the volume and you'd taken that on board. Implementing it is the tricky bit especially if you have to convince people to change the way they approach something, I was trying to make clear that it would be absolutely necessary they do this to to achieve what you're after. The number of guitarists who harp on about the tiny nuances of their tone as if that mattered more than the fact they're so loud that the mix is screwed and people's ears are shutting down! Grrrr

Regarding hearing damage...anyone who has played drums or guitar loudly without protection for an extended period (i.e. several years) will have hearing deficiencies. It is inescapable, the 'safe' threshold limits are easily exceeded by these instruments and will likely occur at the highest frequencies first and those where there's a real load of energy they've been exposed to. This hearing loss typically first manifest noticeably as difficulty deciphering multiple noise sources, e.g. a particular person's talking against a background of other conversations. Worryingly, it's only later on when the damage becomes more severe that a standard hearing test will pick it up. These tests rely on single tones (which limits their diagnostic sensitivity) and top out at 8kHz, whereas theoretical human limit is average 20kHz at least for children and adults who REALLY look after their ears. Because the loss is gradual it's not noticeable to the individual in question at the early stages either, but it will be there. I played bass for 2 years or so in a weekly jam house band. We were playing mainly funk and jazz, not loud at all compared to typical pub-rockers (I kept up fine with 130w SS 1x12") and my hearing is now a couple of dB down on where it used to be at the highest frequencies. I don't notice it day-to-day but it's there. I now have moulded ear plugs and to be honest they're not ideal but there's not much more you can do sadly.

If you have the possibility of using hung stage-cloth like I suggested, then seriously give it a go - it is really good for solving or at least minimising a lot of common problems with bad acoustics that otherwise screw gigs right up. It's a bit alien to our normal way of thinking which seems to like buying exciting new electronic toys, but in many cases it's actually the single most effective thing you can do to correct the sound of a band and at a couple of hundred quid or so it's miles cheaper than most alternatives too. It's especially great for taking some of the crazy killer edge of cymbals and snares, there is so much early reflection from these in a typical small room and getting rid of it improves perception of mix clarity no end. You find things have to be up less loud in the monitoring which also contributes to improved FoH.

Edited January 17, 2010 by LawrenceH

[Phaedrus]

I tried a Tour 700 & TVX 115 today. They'll have a Tour 450 & TVX 410 & Tour 410 for me to try next week.

The 700 was plenty loud - I had input gain at about 1/4 and output at 1/4 and if the shop wasn't empty I'd have been embarrassed by the volume.

The graphic has lots of range on the sliders, the contour knob has a significant effect on things, the octaver is way too much at anything over 12 o'clock, but subtle & useable up to that. Obviously with a 410, it'd sound different than with the 115 I tried. I reckon the TVX will be all I need tone wise - if only it was lighter. The Tour 410 cab is lighter, but a lot dearer, so it'll probably be the TVX for me and a set of 3" B&Q castors.

I reckon persuading the guitarists to downsize will go ok, though it won't happen straight away. Like I said in an earlier post, they are all swinging towards focussing on getting the best FOH sound.

I particularly like your comment on guitarists caring more about "[i]the tiny nuances of their tone as if that mattered more than the fact they're so loud that the mix is screwed[/i]" That could well be my big sell - the big picture is more important than individual preferences, and it's a known fact that hyper-loud on-stage volumes screw-up FOH.

When I was in the music shop today, I asked this same question of the sales guy. Predictably, he offered a smirk and a couple of nods - it's the same with everyone he talks to. He said a 50w valve 1x12" combo is more than enough, even with a PA of half the power of ours. I'll put the guitarist onto that Orange combo - a cool brand always increases a product's attractiveness.

Thing is, if they're moving from 100w valve power & 4x12s to under 50w and 1x12, a fair question to me would be "then why are you moving to 450w & 4x10s?"

I think know the answers:

1. Valve power is very different to solid-state power.
2. Although low frequencies are less directional than higher frequencies, they don't travel as well as them, so as the frequencies being amplified go lower, the power required to do the job has to increase. Witness the common PA practice of 2/3 of a system's power going to the subs and 1/3 going to the mains - that's what we're doing: 3000w to four 1x18" subs and 1500w going to the two 2x15" mains.
3. The footprint of the TVX410 isn't hugely bigger than a 1x12 guitar combo.
4. Bass needs headroom to give clean tone at volume, whereas rock guitar needs to drive the amp to get dirty tone.
5. Bass needs more power to acheive equivalent volume levels.

If you guys can add anything that I've left out, please do.

On the stage cloth, where do I go to read more? Sounds interesting.


Mark

Edited to include points posted in later posts.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Phaedrus

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Phaedrus' post='716003' date='Jan 17 2010, 08:56 PM']Thing is, if they're moving from 100w valve power & 4x12s to under 50w and 1x12, a fair question to me would be "then why are you moving to 450w & 4x10s?"

I think know the answers:

1. Valve power is very different to solid-state power.
2. Although low frequencies are less directional than higher frequencies, they don't travel as well as them, so as the frequencies being amplified go lower, the power required to do the job has to increase. Witness the common PA practice of 2/3 of a system's power going to the subs and 1/3 going to the mains - that's what we're doing: 3000w to four 1x18" subs and 1500w going to the two 2x15" mains.
3. The footprint of the TVX410 isn't hugely bigger than a 1x12 guitar combo.

If you guys can add anything that I've left out, please do.

On the stage cloth, where do I go to read more? Sounds interesting.


Mark[/quote]


The main reason is just that bass requires more power to reach the same perceived volume level! I'm off to bed so won't elaborate now, but that's just that and way more important than 'valve v ss'.

Re this and lots more (e.g. absorption coefficients of different materials), I think the Yamaha sound reinforcement handbook is a good starting point if you're serious about understanding how to get a good sound without going crazy into the physics. Well worth getting hold of a copy.