Tonewoods

[tauzero]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1104672' date='Jan 27 2011, 02:34 AM']Explain more. As far as I know the inducatance is the thing that generates a voltage that makes a pickup work. Unfortunately they aren't a perfect inductor, so they also have a capacitance (as a component of impedance) which is what attenuates high frequencies. But electronics understanding is a work in progress for me.[/quote]
A coil is an inductor. Insofar as two wires near each other have capacitance, there will be capacitance knocking around the circuit somewhere but it'll be insignificant.

An electrical current flowing in a conductor will result in a magnetic field being produced around that conductor. A coil makes use of that by wrapping the conductor round in a loop so that the magnetic field is reinforced. This results in an inductor, which has higher resistance the higher the frequency of alternating current that's fed through it (there's probably a good article explaining that on Wikipedia, as long as it hasn't been vandalised with speculation on Jordan's sex life). That's the electronic characteristic of a pickup coil. Oh, and the magnetic field, when it collapses, produces a big voltage - this is used for the HT side of car ignition and for zapping your finger if you switch your amp off at the mains and immediately unplug it with your fingers across live and neutral.

As for how the pickup picks up, that's related but different. The pickup acts as a dynamo. The magnet in the pickup induces magnetism in the strings (which is why they have to be steel), and so you have a moving magnet next to a conductor which induces a current. The conductor is wound round lots of times because that increases its sensitivity.

A capacitor is an open circuit to DC. It consists of two plates - as the voltage on one side varies up and down, so electrons are either pulled or pushed from the other plate, so current flows. As the frequency rises, so the resistance to current flow falls. See Wikipedia again

[mattyfunk13]

I think the choice of wood is important, but not for the reasons some people may think.

Sure the asthetics of the wood is important, it may sound soppy but if the bass looks good you will want to play it more, it will make you happy and you will get better. But mind games apart the higher density of the wood will give better sustain in the same way that a thru neck does vs a bolt on.

Adding a tone wood top will do the same thing, I would imagine this is why some ltd edition basses have different 1/8" tops, for example swamp ash body with a maple top. Warwick do this sort of thing alot.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='mattyfunk13' post='1166280' date='Mar 17 2011, 09:18 PM']But mind games apart the higher density of the wood will give better sustain in the same way that a thru neck does vs a bolt on.[/quote]

Does it and do they?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='mattyfunk13' post='1166280' date='Mar 17 2011, 02:18 PM']Sure the asthetics of the wood is important, it may sound soppy but if the bass looks good you will want to play it more, it will make you happy and you will get better.[/quote]I'd agree with that. And playing better will sound better and could be called a better tone. But it's not the wood directly changing the tone.[quote]But mind games apart the higher density of the wood will give better sustain in the same way that a thru neck does vs a bolt on.[/quote]Theoretically that makes sense and is probably true but where sustain is increased that other marketing buzzword, resonance, is decreased with all else being equal. Which is why I feel anyone who markets a claim of increased resonance and sustain for a particular wood is usually either ignorant or lying.

[watchman]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='709486' date='Jan 11 2010, 11:14 PM']Generally only a small amount. Of course, that small amount could be the 'missing link' in getting the perfect tone for you.[/quote]

My feeling too. Getting the pickups right, and in the right place, will be much more vital.

[Robert Manning]

I have two fender jazz basses... one maple neck one rosewood. same pickups. they sound very different.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Robert Manning' post='1195333' date='Apr 11 2011, 06:59 AM']I have two fender jazz basses... one maple neck one rosewood. same pickups. they sound very different.[/quote]
I'm not in the least surprised tbh, in fact I'd be astounded if they did.

Two Fender Jazzes...

That were (in all likelihood) made & assembled by more than one person
and made on different days/months/years
from different cuts of wood
possibly manufactured using different machines that were set up differently

and...

fitted with pickups that were also likely to be made separately
with subtly differing windings (& possibly different batches of magnets that also differed)
wired to pots that conform to a fairly lax + & - % tolerance
the tone circuit of which contains a capacitor that could have a tolerance range of ± 10-20%

The notion of 'identical' instruments (especially those that are mass-produced) is, IMO, pure unadulterated snake oil laced with hokum. There are just too many variables.

That said, I'll bet you a pound that they both sound [i]exactly[/i] like Fender Jazzes.

[Thunderpaws]

[quote name='mattyfunk13' post='1166280' date='Mar 17 2011, 10:18 PM']I think the choice of wood is important, but not for the reasons some people may think.

Sure the asthetics of the wood is important, it may sound soppy but if the bass looks good you will want to play it more, it will make you happy and you will get better. But mind games apart the higher density of the wood will give better sustain in the same way that a thru neck does vs a bolt on.

Adding a tone wood top will do the same thing, I would imagine this is why some ltd edition basses have different 1/8" tops, for example swamp ash body with a maple top. Warwick do this sort of thing alot.[/quote]


Went to the PRS evening in Glasgow on Monday. Paul Reed Smith was talking (a lot) and he basically said he could work with any piece of wood to make it sound good. By sounding good, he explained that he meant if he tapped it he could get the piece of wood to sustain its vibrations for longer. The way he, and many others, does this is through his high-tech top secret drying process which ensures that every piece of wood that passes through his factory has crystallised resin within.

If a piece of wood isn't aged properly it wont sound good no matter what it is. He brought his favourite guitar out. One of his "cheaper" axes that he stumbled across in a shop in Japan. He picked it up and tapped it's body and the body rang for donkeys, so he bought it. Even though it was old enough for the stain to have faded in the sunlight.

The PRS folk openely expressed that the wood choices they make are based on aesthetics, workability and availability. Cost didn't really figure as it was their private stock woods.

Also, apparently the fretboard wood choice has insignificant impact on tone, that comes mostly from the neck timber itself.

Also, apparently again, glue doesn't have a big impact and they use bog standard wood glue.

So, I am now off the opinion that if I find a nicely dried piece of driftwood that rings when I hit it it will make a nice stringed instrument.

Crystallised resin is where it's at. I don't know too much about wood, but I do about plastics. Is resin in trees amorphous when the tree is alive?

Cheers, g

PS: PRS's new bass sounded pretty amazing on Monday night. It looked amazing too.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Thunderpaws' post='1198824' date='Apr 13 2011, 02:30 PM']Also, apparently the fretboard wood choice has insignificant impact on tone, that comes mostly from the neck timber itself.[/quote]Yet Sadowsky and others say the fingerboard is the most important. Sometimes it's hard to tell which prophet/salesman holds the true secret and which is just trying to sell stuff.

[nickersby]

If the fingerboard is the most important part of a Sadowski bass's tone, does that mean you shouldn't play open strings on it

Interesting thread this, just read through it all. I personally think the amplifier/speakers, pickups, strings, electronics, and technique have a much greater bearing on a bass's tone than the wood. The pickup is not amplifying the vibrations of the wood, it's converting the oscillations of the string into an electronic signal. The wood will affect how long the string vibrates and which harmonics are strengthened or supressed, but you'll alter the tone much more by rolling off a bit of treble, plucking further up the neck or changing roundwounds for flatwounds than by swapping a maple top for a zubinga one or whatever.

I bet no-one in the world can consistently identify what type of wood a bass is made of just by listening to it, but I reckon a lot of us could spot a roundwound or flatwound string.

If someone wanted to 'upgrade' their sound, I would recommend buying a better amplifier as I find this to have the most influence on the sound. A cheap-ish bass through a great amp will sound ok, but the reverse is never true.

BTW my favourite bass of the moment is a Squier Classic Vibe precision made of basswood which plays and sounds great.

[Thunderpaws]

[quote name='nickersby' post='1201229' date='Apr 15 2011, 09:59 PM']If the fingerboard is the most important part of a Sadowski bass's tone, does that mean you shouldn't play open strings on it

Interesting thread this, just read through it all. I personally think the amplifier/speakers, pickups, strings, electronics, and technique have a much greater bearing on a bass's tone than the wood. The pickup is not amplifying the vibrations of the wood, it's converting the oscillations of the string into an electronic signal. The wood will affect how long the string vibrates and which harmonics are strengthened or supressed, but you'll alter the tone much more by rolling off a bit of treble, plucking further up the neck or changing roundwounds for flatwounds than by swapping a maple top for a zubinga one or whatever.

I bet no-one in the world can consistently identify what type of wood a bass is made of just by listening to it, but I reckon a lot of us could spot a roundwound or flatwound string.

If someone wanted to 'upgrade' their sound, I would recommend buying a better amplifier as I find this to have the most influence on the sound. A cheap-ish bass through a great amp will sound ok, but the reverse is never true.

BTW my favourite bass of the moment is a Squier Classic Vibe precision made of basswood which plays and sounds great.[/quote]


Well said!

I am right into my wood now, as dodgy as that sounds. However, more aesthetically than tonewise. Id do think the drying process will have a certain impact, but as you say, it probably affects sustain more than anything else.

Visual aesthetics are clearly important to all of us bass players, but tone is where it's at. Even the PRS guys said there is a certain amount of snobbery attached to the whole "tonewood" thing.

I wonder if there is a thread anywhere discussing the tone produced by fat stubby fingers versus skinny long ones!

g

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='nickersby' post='1201229' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:59 PM']I bet no-one in the world can consistently identify what type of wood a bass is made of just by listening to it, but I reckon a lot of us could spot a roundwound or flatwound string.[/quote]
That's how I feel about it, and once it's mixed it can be near impossible to tell anything for sure. I've also found a solid color paint job can completely mask the subtlety of the wood.

[mattyfunk13]

Some really interesting thoughts in this thread,

I agree, a solid paint finish will mask the tone of the wood. Its like putting fabric over a snare drum, it will change the tone.

As for the tonewood thing, there are some variants, for example the density of the wood, thru vs bolt on, the size of the body, neck builds, laminates, it goes on and on.

if you bash a tuning fork and place the bottom on different woods you will get the same pitch but different tones, I believe this to be the same with basses too.

I spent some time with Warwick, they are fanatical about the wood they use, the way its stored, dried and used.

I also agree about the neck wood comments, if you have a neck with a 3 or 5 part construction is there a credible difference to the tone or is it just the manufactures just showing off their craft? The latter I expect.

I'm sure a zero fret would add better open string sustain on a single piece graphite neck........., how I dream of a trace bass!!!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='mattyfunk13' post='1216107' date='Apr 30 2011, 12:18 PM']Some really interesting thoughts in this thread,

I agree, a solid paint finish will mask the tone of the wood. Its like putting fabric over a snare drum, it will change the tone.[/quote]
What I meant by that was once you hide the wood with a solid finish the experts can no longer hear the specific subtleties. Where as a clear finish will let those tones shine through. It's not unlike how no one can hear a truss rod type or graphite neck reinforcements without knowing about them first.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='mattyfunk13' post='1216107' date='Apr 30 2011, 08:18 PM']I also agree about the neck wood comments, if you have a neck with a 3 or 5 part construction is there a credible difference to the tone or is it just the manufactures just showing off their craft? The latter I expect.[/quote]

There is a significant difference between the tone of someone trying to play a bass with a warped neck, and an immaculately set up bass, so a lot of the multi part neck construction is there.

[lanark]

On the subject of wood and tone - I remember this thread on Talk Bass where someone fitted the same electronics to an Alder Jazz made by Warmoth and a square of scrap lumber.

He recorded several examples of music played on each "guitar" and put them up to the forum for people to guess which came from a Warmoth Jazz adn which came from a planed off-cut of scrap pine.

Turns out that nobody could actually tell the difference - the results being completely random.

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/scrap-lumber-bass-vs-alder-bass-can-you-tell-difference-743932/"]Scrap Lumber Bass vs Alder Warmoth Bass[/url]

Edited June 19, 2011 by lanark

[Vibrating G String]

This kind of test has been going on for at least 30 years IME and no one can ever tell the difference, but those who believe they can tell still believe they can tell. No matter how badly they can't when tested. Basic cognitive dissonance and refusal to admit you're wrong after strongly stating an opinion.

[lanark]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1275489' date='Jun 20 2011, 02:28 AM']This kind of test has been going on for at least 30 years IME and no one can ever tell the difference, but those who believe they can tell still believe they can tell. No matter how badly they can't when tested. Basic cognitive dissonance and refusal to admit you're wrong after strongly stating an opinion.[/quote]


Like with high end A/V cabling in a home environment, the eagerness to percieve a difference is also linked to how much lighter your wallet is after the purchase.

[Roland Rock]

I have query directed towards those who believe that the type of wood makes a difference to tone:

They say that the denser the wood, the brighter the tone - makes sense to me.
People tend to say that a maple board is brighter sounding than a rosewood one, even though I'm quite certain that rosewood is softer/more dense than rosewood.
Why is this?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Roland Rock' post='1316432' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:39 PM']I have query directed towards those who believe that the type of wood makes a difference to tone:

They say that the denser the wood, the brighter the tone - makes sense to me.
People tend to say that a maple board is brighter sounding than a rosewood one, even though I'm quite certain that rosewood is softer/more dense than rosewood.
Why is this?[/quote]
I wouldn't say that wood makes no difference as that will lead to ridiculous hypothetical arguments and faith based bickering. I do say that wood makes no difference discernible by listening to the sound of an electric guitar.

If you look at maple it is a bright colored wood, therefore it sounds bright to those that believe they can identify species by tone even though they rarely even understand what wood species means. Rosewood is denser than maple but has a dark color, therefore the wood experts will say it sounds darker. After watching this argument for over 30 years I can say I have never seen anyone that can demonstrate their supernatural claims no matter how angrily they state them. Actually most can't even tell rosewood from other genus' by looking at them.

Also as for dense equalling brighter tone. It is also assumed to have a deeper tone, dense equals scooped is the logical conclusion of those statements.

[Muzz]

I've just put the same pickups (a Wizard P/J set) in to two basses which really couldn't be more different in woods and construction - a P Bass with Ash body, maple neck, maple board, Corian nut and Schaller bridge, and a Warwick with a maple body, wenge neck and board, brass nut and two piece bridge. The huge similarity in tone between them has popped the bubble of whatever delusions I might have been entertaining about 'tonewoods'.

Which is great news - in future, I'll be able to pick woods for their aesthetic values, without having to worry a jot about 'tone'.

[Kiwi]

Or...the combination of woods is such that they cancel each others differences out....or...that the listener didn't notice the differences.

There's a simple test for those who say wood doesn't make a difference. Play a Status and testify that graphite doesn't make a difference.

IF graphite makes a difference (because its [url="http://www.janartsguitars.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=6"]denser[/url]), then why shouldn't different densities in woods?

The difference is there, I'd suggest its not as distinct for some. A bit like giving someone brought up on chinese takeaways a plate of beef carpaccio and asking them whether they thought it tasted better.

[Muzz]

None taken - I'll have a 34 and two 77s, please.

Wow, what's the odds of those woods cancelling each other out? Ash/maple/maple/corian = wenge/maple/brass?

Graphite's not really a test about wood, though, is it? It's analgous to saying "If you think Merlot and Shiraz taste similar, try Tizer, that's completely different."

I think a completely different substance makes a difference, yes, as I'm sure a steel bass would (if you could pick it up), and yep, tonewoods will make a difference. Just not as much as most people would have you believe.

I think a Status being an active bass with a particular EQ path has a massive effect, too: if anyone would care to nail a set of Wizards in a Status and rip the EQ out to prove a point, that'd be just keeno...

The Warwick still looks like a Warwick Fortress (apart from the pickup poles), still plays like a Warwick Fortress, still feels like a Warwick Fortress. It no longer sounds like one.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Muzz

[lanark]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1316615' date='Jul 26 2011, 08:59 AM']There's a simple test for those who say wood doesn't make a difference. Play a Status and testify that graphite doesn't make a difference.[/quote]

For that to be a proper test, you'd need to have exactly the same electronic setup and strings on the graphite shell as the wooden shell.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1316615' date='Jul 26 2011, 12:59 AM']Or...the combination of woods is such that they cancel each others differences out....or...that the listener didn't notice the differences.

There's a simple test for those who say wood doesn't make a difference. Play a Status and testify that graphite doesn't make a difference.[/quote]That test is beyond simple and completely unscientific. Let's try another simple test, who in this thread is smarter than the other posters in this thread? Will we get 50% saying yes and 50% saying no? Any bass you play will be colored by the expectations you have. This can be demonstrated scientifically and does not just rely on selected anecdotes that match the expectations. No need to use faith arguments like testifying. How emotionally the case is presented does not make it more true but it will effect the perceptions and the stubbornness of the claims.
[quote]IF graphite makes a difference (because its [url="http://www.janartsguitars.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=6"]denser[/url]), then why shouldn't different densities in woods?[/quote]Status basses are not made of graphite, they have graphite in them. Why are you not also saying Status is the sound of plastic binders? Again we're just simply selecting the details that fit the bias and offering them as anecdotal proof.
[quote]The difference is there, I'd suggest its not as distinct for some. A bit like giving someone brought up on chinese takeaways a plate of beef carpaccio and asking them whether they thought it tasted better.

[/quote]Well now we're getting into pure fallacies like appeal to authority and ad hominem. If you can hear the tone you should be able to tell what wood a bass is made from by just listening to a clip. No one can do that. If you can't define a claim that is predictable and repeatable the claim is likely false.