Tonewoods

[Kiwi]

This is one of the larger slabs which I'll use for a top. Love the grain patterns in both sap and heartwood. Hopefully the two will stay attached to one another!


I also drop by a salvage yard close to where I live every other weekend. Some time ago I snagged this piece which had been used as a shelf! Any ideas on what the wood is? I thought it might have been blue gum or oak but it seems too coarse for the former and too fine for the latter.

I've also been checking out macrocarpa (aka Monterey cypress) which is a very common shelterbelt wood in NZ. Some incredibly dramatic grain distortions are available because the wood has been grown in very windy locations. Although it can be very knotty so careful selection is needed. But it takes a finish with a depth and lustre the equal of maple or sycamore. Amazing wood! I've also managed to source some 41,000 year old swamp kauri which will be set aside for an instrument made from NZ native wood. I'll probably use some native mountain beech for the body as I have a Klein-clone guitar made from same which sounds pretty good almost like soft maple.

[kurosawa]

Thought if the wenge J neck sounded authoritative on the black korina, it ought to do a similar improvement on the alder. No such. However when I swapped in the neck I just got, same maple/rosewood combination as the one that was on the body when I got it, it was pure magic. The original neck sounded loud, dry and percussive. The new one sounds even louder, but it's huge and fat and maybe a little down on highs from the other one. Waiting for all the pieces to get the swamp ash body together, then we'll try it with these same 3 necks.

There doesn't seem to be anything predictable about this. The first neck is flat sawn, as dead straight as if it had been planned. It's unstable. Relief had to be tweaked every day on tour. The other one is way off-axis, but when I got it in the mail, it was in tune and the setup was perfect. I loved the wenge on the black korina except for a high-mid peak. It was ultra clear and powerful, but those characteristics didn't carry over to the alder. It made the TIs sound deader.

I guess the thing to do is try everything possible, because, at least for me, there's no rhyme or reason in it. I now regret parting with every neck that isn't with me any more. Someone on TB said he'd heard that the Dimarzio DP123 combo didn't make bad wood sound any better, but they made great wood sound amazing. The new neck sure did sound amazing with the Fralin 5% overwound P. I have a Model J "patent applied for" bridge pickup to go with the MIJ P on the swamp ash body. Ought to be fairly balanced volume-wise, and I'm hoping it'll make some magic noises soloed.

Edited October 30, 2012 by kurosawa

[kurosawa]

Ya know, Kiwi, I once cut down an osage orange tree that the forester out on the East Reservation on Barksdale AFB let me have. If only any part of it had been straight or big enough to make into some part of a bass! They use it for fence posts because it seasons up like metal. If you're going to drive a nail into it, it has to be done when the post is planted. If that thinking about resin flow in the vid is right, bodark (its other name) would be worth listening to because it's so full of resins. On the fire, it constantly crackles. How thick is that beautiful plank you found in the salvage yard?

[B.Flat]

[quote name='B.Flat' timestamp='1319362631' post='1412977']
I have just read all 11 pages of this thread and would like to add my 2p.
It is a simple anecdote. Many years ago whilst in a residency in the south of England I went into London on my day off and went to Ronnie Scotts club in the evening. One of the bands featured that evening had an electric bassist that I particularly wanted to hear after reading reviws of his work.
When the band commenced their set I was set back by what, to me, was the awful tone of the bass!
Within a few minutes I was transported to a wonderful place by the melodic lines and musical ideas the bassist was creating.
And, guess what, by then I thought the bass sounded great, which came as a great surprise to me and was something of a lesson learnt. A great idea is a great idea regardless of tone and a dull idea is dull no matter what equipment you have.
So ends the first reading, let us pray.
[/quote]



I am not a great contributor to BC forums, but I do read them with interest. Imagine my surprise to find an anecdote almost itentical to one I have been telling people since 1973 ( and probably boring the pants off them too!) I also had an eight month residency in the south of England, I also went into London on my day off to go to Ronnie Scotts, to see a favourite band Mongo Santamaria & his orchestra. Supporting were another UK band I will not name with a featured guitarist making a name for himself in both jazz and rock at that time. I also was apalled at his guitar tone but, guess what?, after ten minutes or less of wonderful inventive and melodic lines I was enthralled, and yes, his guitar tone was fantastic! Let me agree with the contributor above, ideas are all, everything else is.............(fill in phrase of your choice indicating disdain!)
I even started to try to play with the most excruciating tones I could produce to check if the phenomenon worked for me. Unfortunately I do not have the same fluidity of thought that the guitarist at Ronnies had/has so my improvising leaves a little to be desired, but the lesson was learnt, we are not listening to the musicians equipment, we are listening to the musicians soul.
Here endeth the second lesson, we will now sing the hymn "Oh What a Friend We Have In Jaco" omitting verses 75, 81 & 93

[Mr. Foxen]

Lesson is: Context is important.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' timestamp='1263282719' post='709691']
The tone also comes from your fingers. I've tried using cadburys chocolate fingers & birds eye fish fingers, but found that my original ones sound best in an A/B comparison.
[/quote]

At the heart of this humourous posting there are extremely wise words. The single most important factor in the tonality of any instrument is the touch and creativity of the individual player that is playing it.

[yann]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1356883071' post='1914674']
At the heart of this humourous posting there are extremely wise words. The single most important factor in the tonality of any instrument is the touch and creativity of the individual player that is playing it.
[/quote]

I'll have to disagree with this,or make it more clear:
A good player can make a bad instrument sound "somehow good",but will never sound like he would with a good one!
A bad player will make the best instrument sound like the cheapest....
Bad (or too old) strings make the best inst sound like a bad one too!

But "tone" comes even with an open string,and good or bad fingers will give the same toneon an open string: The one the inst has itself!!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1357479642' post='1923114']

I'll have to disagree with this,or make it more clear:
A good player can make a bad instrument sound "somehow good",but will never sound like he would with a good one!
A bad player will make the best instrument sound like the cheapest....
Bad (or too old) strings make the best inst sound like a bad one too!

But "tone" comes even with an open string,and good or bad fingers will give the same toneon an open string: The one the inst has itself!!
[/quote]

So Jamerson's Funk Machine sounds like a bad one?

A bad player won't make a good instrument sound like a cheap one, just will sound like its being played by a bad player.

[yann]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1357481513' post='1923152']
So Jamerson's Funk Machine sounds like a bad one?[/quote]
What i mean is that "good sound" is different to each person.
What i call "good sound",is about clarity and quality of it,no matter of frequences or style.
Jamerson was a flatwound user,but he obviously knew how to get the most out of them,on whatever bass he used.
His sound is nothing for me (other aesthetics) but 'holly grail" for others...
-The Funk Machine didn't play in all of his recordings!

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1357481513' post='1923152']
A bad player won't make a good instrument sound like a cheap one, just will sound like its being played by a bad player.[/quote]

Just an example:
A bad player will never realize, hmmm...let's say that his strings are too old to produce the highs he boosted on his onboard preamp,
peadal board or amp, and will never hear that theese frequences he boosted are only adding noise to the sound,and even affect the whole mix of the band.
Ever noticed that "tick-tick-tick" everytime the finger hits the string? The string hits the frets,and the produced noise (noise to me,"dirty style" for others),
is going through the mix right to the ears...

[sblueplanet]

The sound IS ultimately in the hands. Im pretty sure any famous player with an obvious sound could play any decent random instrument through a decent amp in a music store and you would recognise their sound. Partly this is because their style would shine through but also because they would quickly tweak everything to suit what their ears wanted to hear.

My advice would be to either search out that dream bass or if having one built, make sure it looks exactly how you imagined it using good quality materials then let your ears and your fingers do the rest.

Edited March 13, 2013 by sblueplanet

[Deets]

Mulling over ordering a custom with mahogany body, maple 3 piece neck, Brazilian rosewood fretboard and either olive or Bubinga top. Olive in particular is very dense so that will be a brightening influence to the mahogany and rosewood. I was wondering if anyone has heard a bass with this or a close variant combination of tone woods and/ or what choosing such ' opposite' tone woods will lead to tonally.

[chris_b]

I had a Wal with Olive Ash caps. Is that the same wood?

Anyway, the Olive Ash sounded thin and tight. That was the opposite of what I wanted so I sold the bass and bought another Wal with American Walnut caps, which sounded full and warm.

Also be aware that Brazilian Rosewood is high on the CITES list of restricted materials. BR cannot be exported, traded or even carried by an owner between countries and, in this case, the bass may be confiscated at the border.

Edited March 24, 2013 by chris_b

[Deets]

Chris thanks olive is actual wood from olive tree. Will just form the top of the bass. The braz rosewood would be CITES certified.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Deets' timestamp='1364161215' post='2022765']
Mulling over ordering a custom with mahogany body, maple 3 piece neck, Brazilian rosewood fretboard and either olive or Bubinga top. Olive in particular is very dense so that will be a brightening influence to the mahogany and rosewood. I was wondering if anyone has heard a bass with this or a close variant combination of tone woods and/ or what choosing such ' opposite' tone woods will lead to tonally.
[/quote]

Olive more dense than rosewood? Or mahogany for that matter.

I wonder if using something harder than brass for the frets would have more of an influence on the sound?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1364510966' post='2027636']
I wonder if using something harder than brass for the frets would have more of an influence on the sound?
[/quote]

[quote]*Stainless steel is now my default choice of material for full refrets. In addition to its hardness and wear resistance I believe this offers improved tone. Users report increased definition in chords and improved sustain, particularly of the high end harmonics.[/quote]

[url="http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/"]http://www.edgeguita...o.uk/rout_serv/[/url]

A good fret dress is a bigger direct influence in sound, but harder frets will retain a good dress for longer

Edited March 29, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1364579836' post='2028494']
[url="http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/"]http://www.edgeguita...o.uk/rout_serv/[/url]

A good fret dress is a bigger direct influence in sound, but harder frets will retain a good dress for longer
[/quote]

In the same way adjusting the action will have way more effect than choice of wood. (I thought I was being facetious with my original comment.)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1364749167' post='2030383']
In the same way adjusting the action will have way more effect than choice of wood. (I thought I was being facetious with my original comment.)
[/quote]

Again, choice of wood will affect how well a guitar holds a setup, stability is a big thing.

[MiltyG565]

I've come to the conclusion that tonewoods make such a small difference to the sound of an electric bass or guitar, that it's hardly even worth spending much time thinking about. Certain woods look good if they have a nice grain, but for me, that's as far as it goes, aesthetics. I really like wood. It's a beautiful material to make things from, and i've made plenty from it before, but in an electric instrument, it makes little difference, especially in the body. As in the OP, things to devote more time and effort in the choice of are Pickup/s, Preamp, strings and the material of the bridge and nut.

Acoustic instruments are an entirely different ball game, where even the glue you use can change the sound. But acoustic instrument manufacturers are a lot less likely to talk about tonewoods.

[4 Strings]

I think most would agree with you in all this, Milty, except the last phrase. Acoustic instrument makers definitely DO talk about tone woods, varnishes etc, maybe you'd see a lot more if this was an acoustic guitar forum.

As an aside our sax player has a Selmer tenor sax from the '50s and will tell you all sorts of stories about the lacquer on Selmers of the time and how they got it wrong and refinished many saxes to maintain their high reputation for sound such was it's importance. The irony is that his sax is so old and well used that there is hardly any lacquer left on it and yet you could buy half a dozen expensive basses with it!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1364979320' post='2033459']
I think most would agree with you in all this, Milty, except the last phrase. Acoustic instrument makers definitely DO talk about tone woods, varnishes etc, maybe you'd see a lot more if this was an acoustic guitar forum.

As an aside our sax player has a Selmer tenor sax from the '50s and will tell you all sorts of stories about the lacquer on Selmers of the time and how they got it wrong and refinished many saxes to maintain their high reputation for sound such was it's importance. The irony is that his sax is so old and well used that there is hardly any lacquer left on it and yet you could buy half a dozen expensive basses with it!
[/quote]

Yes, well i read quite a bit about acoustic instruments too, and i haven't seen too much of the tonewood talk going on, but maybe they just define it differently.

Classical instruments are crazy expensive though. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get 4 or 5 Dingwalls or Foderas with it.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1364983721' post='2033547']
Classical instruments are crazy expensive though.
[/quote]

That's what I did wrong, buying classical pipe organs, pianos, Hammonds and synths. Damn you, classical music!

I agree with the lack of importance of tonewoods as opposed to other parameters, and repeat the point about the bow as concept. As long as a bass is a bow, and reverberations (is that the word?) are present (and can be felt) in both body and neck, one must never underestimate the importance of the dimensions in neck, body and joint, and the relative stiffnesses, as in: a rubber neck on a stone body will sound different than a stone neck on a rubber body.

No, Discreet, I do not want to know how you dress after the nine o' clock news.


b,
b

Edited April 3, 2013 by BassTractor

[Mr. Foxen]

I like how people draw conclusion from stuff other than making instruments that differ from those of people who make instruments.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1365023472' post='2034369']
I like how people draw conclusion from stuff other than making instruments that differ from those of people who make instruments.
[/quote]

Are you referring to me? Because we have a problem if you are.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1365061173' post='2034607']
Are you referring to me? Because we have a problem if you are.
[/quote]

Nah. Referring to me, I guess, me obviously having said that a bass guitar is not a musical instrument but a weapon - or something like that.


best,
bert

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1365072620' post='2034798']
Nah. Referring to me, I guess, me obviously having said that a bass guitar is not a musical instrument but a weapon - or something like that.


best,
bert
[/quote]

I would reach for mine if there was a burglar in the house, i can tell you that!