Tonewoods

[BassTractor]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1365073228' post='2034815']
I would reach for mine if there was a burglar in the house, i can tell you that!
[/quote]

Back on topic though, remember to always have small tonewoods (Steinberger style or similar) and a very short scale (Ashbory style or similar), so as not to harm the bass on walls or roof before it hits said perpetrator with full power.

Wait. You have the Cort Gene Simmons axe maybe?
Or did you mean you have a barrel instead of a truss rod? In case: nice touch!

b,
b

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1365089310' post='2035174']
Back on topic though, remember to always have small tonewoods (Steinberger style or similar) and a very short scale (Ashbory style or similar), so as not to harm the bass on walls or roof before it hits said perpetrator with full power.

Wait. You have the Cort Gene Simmons axe maybe?
Or did you mean you have a barrel instead of a truss rod? In case: nice touch!

b,
b
[/quote]

Well, my bass is beside my bed, and it's pretty heavy, and i don't have the strength to actually attack a burglar, so i'll sacrifice one bass, and tell the insurance company it was worth a few grand

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1364972192' post='2033373']
I've come to the conclusion that tonewoods make such a small difference to the sound of an electric bass or guitar, that it's hardly even worth spending much time thinking about. Certain woods look good if they have a nice grain, but for me, that's as far as it goes, aesthetics.
[/quote]


Hey Milty,

Just interested, as per the below quote, I thought you were a tonewood believer. Has something happened to make you a tonewood atheist?
[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358201529' post='1934903']
If it's maple, that will give the body a brighter tone with a through neck design (i do believe that maple is a bright tone wood). If it was mahogany or something like wenge, it would be perfect for through neck, because of the bassiness of those woods. But it depends what you want, and there are advantages to them all. I suppose with so many frets (going well out of bass frequency) you want those high notes to resonate as good as they can through the body, so through neck would be ideal there, but again, it depends on the wood and what you want.
[/quote]

[4 Strings]

I can't answer for him, of course, but perhaps, like most of us, 'netreadism has given way to pragmatism. (So many people appear to have strong views about 'tonewoods' from what they have read on the 'net as opposed to conclusions drawn from tones from instruments they have used over the years.)

I know this is the path I have trod.

Edited April 16, 2013 by 4 Strings

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1365884756' post='2045727']
Hey Milty,

Just interested, as per the below quote, I thought you were a tonewood believer. Has something happened to make you a tonewood atheist?
[/quote]

Yes, i listened.

Woods make a huge difference in acoustic instruments, and I still believe that, but in an electric instrument, the electrics are what make the difference.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366125761' post='2048675']
Yes, i listened.

Woods make a huge difference in acoustic instruments, and I still believe that, but in an electric instrument, the electrics are what make the difference.
[/quote]

Do you mean you did tests with different woods/electronics, or you listened to to what others said?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1366127042' post='2048708']
Do you mean you did tests with different woods/electronics, or you listened to to what others said?
[/quote]

I listened to the differences, and they were practically nil in electric instruments. What made the difference in sound was the pickups and electronics.

[4 Strings]

I'm convinced of that myself, would love the opportunity to verify it.

[yann]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1366129291' post='2048739']
I'm convinced of that myself, would love the opportunity to verify it.
[/quote]
Αll you gotta do is buy a 300e bass with "bad" woods,and add the best pus,electronics and hardware...
It should play like a 5000 one...if not,there's something about tonewoods interaction on electric instruments!
-Well,it will play somehow better,but it won't have what serious players are after: Personality!!

-Talkin'bout NEW bass,not old,an Indonesian one is great therefor...

Edited April 16, 2013 by yann

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366130531' post='2048758']
Αll you gotta do is buy a 300e bass with "bad" woods,and add the best pus,electronics and hardware...
It should play like a 5000 one...if not,there's something about tonewoods interaction on electric instruments!
-Well,it will play somehow better,but it won't have what serious players are after: Personality!!

-Talkin'bout NEW bass,not old,an Indonesian one is great therefor...
[/quote]

it might sound better, but it won't play better.

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366131616' post='2048783']
it might sound better, but it won't play better.
[/quote]
I know what's it gonna be,i'm just saying that there are easy ways to find out if woods matter in electric sound.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366132485' post='2048796']
I know what's it gonna be,i'm just saying that there are easy ways to find out if woods matter in electric sound.
[/quote]

That wasn't an easy way.

Anyway, why limit yourself to wood? The concrete Telecaster sounded like, well, a Telecaster.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1366147663' post='2049058']
That wasn't an easy way.

Anyway, why limit yourself to wood? The concrete Telecaster sounded like, well, a Telecaster.
[/quote]

Precisely. I was given an 80's satellite Les Paul copy the other day, and it's made of plywood, but I doubt it makes much difference. Any plank of wood with a decent pickup and a good set of strings will sound good enough. If you want to invest more in the sound, invest in the mechanics of it, not the aesthetics (i.e, the bridge, nut, frets and pickup rather than the woods it's made from). The most important thing about the wood is that it is stable and fit for purpose.

[yann]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1366147663' post='2049058']
That wasn't an easy way.

Anyway, why limit yourself to wood? The concrete Telecaster sounded like, well, a Telecaster.[/quote]

Know any easier way? "It;s not cheap" you might mean!
-Many materials were tested through the years,but only wood really stayed,there must be a reason...
-That concrete tele did NOT sound like a GOOD tele,it only had the characteristic twang,and good attack,but no "mass" in the notes themselves.
This makes a bad tele... -Concrete is a great meaterial for sound tranfer,but too heavy,breaks with a thought,and....it's stonecold,that's not what we need....

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366159680' post='2049168']
Precisely. I was given an 80's satellite Les Paul copy the other day, and it's made of plywood, but I doubt it makes much difference. Any plank of wood with a decent pickup and a good set of strings will sound good enough. If you want to invest more in the sound, invest in the mechanics of it, not the aesthetics (i.e, the bridge, nut, frets and pickup rather than the woods it's made from). The most important thing about the wood is that it is stable and fit for purpose.
[/quote]
That's what i ment before: NOT an old one....even plywood can "sound" if it's old enough,depending on the "maturation" conditions!
-That "any plank wood might sound" as you say,coulb be somehow right and it might sound right to your ear when you make your sound or play in your bedroom...
But in serious live conditions,or in the studio,you'll hear the difference (or nothing but mud in the mix....),if not,the sound engineer will show you!
-Bridge nut and frets,are not aesthetics...they're what brings the vibe of the strings to the woods,and if they're not good enough,or badly installed,
even best tonewoods won't vibe,so if someone's not a woods expert,they can;t really tell why,and blame the woods for the failure...

-When people talk about tonewoods and their influence in electric sound,talk about electric instruments,but refer or compare to acoustic ones...
Well,there'e a "bridge" between them,the electroacoustic ones.They can explain all with a few notes,hehe....

-How about electrification on acoustics? Do the woods affect their sound when electrified through pus?
Does the best pu sound the same on an electric and on an acoustic? There's much more to ask,and i got all the answers...
Let's not forget that all of theese issues are solved since the sixties...
(Players might not know this,but luthiers do!)

Edited April 17, 2013 by yann

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366178485' post='2049188']
Know any easier way? "It;s not cheap" you might mean!
-Many materials were tested through the years,but only wood really stayed,there must be a reason...
[/quote]

Cheapness, availability and weight. Imagine trying to build a guitar form concrete. Mixing the concrete, pouring it in to a mould, waiting for it to dry, drilling for wires, it would take forever to make one instrument, not to mention all the special equipment you would need for it, and that's not even including that nobody would buy one because of the weight of them.


[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366178485' post='2049188']

That's what i ment before: NOT an old one....even plywood can "sound" if it's old enough,depending on the "maturation" conditions!
-That "any plank wood might sound" as you say,coulb be somehow right and it might sound right to your ear when you make your sound or play in your bedroom...
But in serious live conditions,or in the studio,you'll hear the difference (or nothing but mud in the mix....),if not,the sound engineer will show you!
-Bridge nut and frets,are not aesthetics...they're what brings the vibe of the strings to the woods,and if they're not good enough,or badly installed,
even best tonewoods won't vibe,so if someone's not a woods expert,they can;t really tell why,and blame the woods for the failure...

-When people talk about tonewoods and their influence in electric sound,talk about electric instruments,but refer or compare to acoustic ones...
Well,there'e a "bridge" between them,the electroacoustic ones.They can explain all with a few notes,hehe....

-How about electrification on acoustics? Do the woods affect their sound when electrified through pus?
Does the best pu sound the same on an electric and on an acoustic? There's much more to ask,and i got all the answers...
Let's not forget that all of theese issues are solved since the sixties...
(Players might not know this,but luthiers do!)
[/quote]

Listen to what you're saying. Plywood "Matures"? No it doesn't. it's thin slices of crappy pieces of wood glued together with the grain going in different directions. Anyway, this particular one has sat in a shed for the last 10 or more years, not exactly ideal conditions.

My ears are perfect. Don't even go down the route of saying i'm not hearing the thing properly.

I never said the bridge, nut and frets were aesthetics, I said they were the mechanics. Please read before replying.

2 different acoustics with the same electro-magnetic pickup will sound more of less the same, but it's a completely different ball game. Piezo pickups actually pick up the resonance in the timber, so if you are so in to the tonewood deal, you should start installing piezo pickups in your guitars, because that's the only way you'll get the benefit of them in an electric guitar or bass.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366209690' post='2049636']
2 different acoustics with the same electro-magnetic pickup will sound more of less the same, but it's a completely different ball game.
[/quote]

Just to throw a (friendly) spanner in the works, I was at a gig last night where the headliner was playing an old open-backed banjo amplified using a Strat pickup attached to the dowel rod, just under the skin. It sounded like a banjo and not in the slightest like my bandmate's Strat. Both instruments have a similar scale length, nickel roundwound and plain strings and necks built similarly from similar materials. To me this suggests that the vibration of the string as "heard" by a magnetic pickup is strongly affected by the mechanical properties of whatever the bridge and neck are attached to. So, while two different lumps of hardwood will probably have a smaller difference in sound than comparing a tensioned skin to a lump of hardwood in the above example, I'm not sure I could say that there can be no difference. Ultimately, it's up to the player and listener to decide how significant these properties are to them, making it one of these subjective discussions which can run and run...

Edited April 17, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1366211252' post='2049668']
Just to throw a (friendly) spanner in the works, I was at a gig last night where the headliner was playing an old open-backed banjo amplified using a Strat pickup attached to the dowel rod, just under the skin. It sounded like a banjo and not in the slightest like my bandmate's Strat. Both instruments have a similar scale length, nickel roundwound and plain strings and necks built similarly from similar materials. To me this suggests that the vibration of the string as "heard" by a magnetic pickup is strongly affected by the mechanical properties of whatever the bridge and neck are attached to. So, while two different lumps of hardwood will probably have a smaller difference in sound than comparing a tensioned skin to a lump of hardwood in the above example, I'm not sure I could say that there can be no difference. Ultimately, it's up to the player and listener to decide how significant these properties are to them, making it one of these subjective discussions which can run and run...
[/quote]

Well yes, but that's why the difference between an acoustic instrument and an electric instrument is so different, and I only ever referred to electric instruments here when talking about tonewoods. Acoustic instruments are a completely different ball game.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366211633' post='2049676']
Well yes, but that's why the difference between an acoustic instrument and an electric instrument is so different, and I only ever referred to electric instruments here when talking about tonewoods. Acoustic instruments are a completely different ball game.
[/quote]

Yeah, that was a bit of an extreme example, but I found it interesting. If you are listening to an instrument solely using a magnetic pickup under the strings, it is not an acoustic instrument in that application - it's just a mechanical structure which can affect the string movement the pickup sees, depending on how much energy it absorbs and disperses from the strings at various frequencies. If attaching strings to a wildly different structure can produce a wildly different sound through a magnetic pickup, then surely smaller differences in that structure (like changes in material) could make some difference, it's just a question of how significant we judge that difference to be. Since music is an art form, subjective judgements are where all the good stuff happens! FWIW, on the two basses I've built, I chose the woods on the basis of appearance and availabilty.
Of course, none of this really adds anything new to the discussion - it's all there in the first couple of pages, but hey, what else are bass forums for? I suppose thinking about the nature of our instruments is useful to some extent though...

Edited April 17, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[MiltyG565]

But he had the pickup below the skin of the banjo, so it would obviously pick up a different sound. Also not to mention scale length and strings. I don't know much about banjos but I wouldn't think they use guitar strings.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366215194' post='2049733']
But he had the pickup below the skin of the banjo, so it would obviously pick up a different sound. Also not to mention scale length and strings. I don't know much about banjos but I wouldn't think they use guitar strings.
[/quote]
The skin is not magnetic or conductive, so would be "invisible" to a magnetic pickup, and the pickup was mounted to the relatively rigid dowel rod. Other than having loop ends instead of ball ends, typical banjo strings are made in the same way, from the same materials as electric guitar strings and tenor banjo scale length is usually around 23" for a long scale, again not very different from guitar. Short of mocking up something in a workshop, it's about as good an example as I've experienced of mechanical differences in an instrument affecting the sound obtained from a magnetic pickup.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1366215894' post='2049746']
The skin is not magnetic or conductive, so would be "invisible" to a magnetic pickup.
[/quote]

Nope, when I touch my plastic plectrum against my strat pickup, it does make a noise through the amp. It's definitely not invisible to it.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366216175' post='2049750']
Nope, when I touch my plastic plectrum against my strat pickup, it does make a noise through the amp. It's definitely not invisible to it.
[/quote]

Almost all magnetic pickups are at least slightly microphonic, depending on how well potted they are. Unless it's extremely loosely wound and unpotted (to the point where you could talk into it), it's not going to get very much at all from a thin sheet of vibrating plastic which is not even touching it. Try putting a classical guitar high E string on your strat and see how much output you get! I just popped up in this thread to share an instance which I found interesting, so i'm not really interested in going back and forth on this...

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366209690' post='2049636']
Listen to what you're saying. Plywood "Matures"? No it doesn't. it's thin slices of crappy pieces of wood glued together with the grain going in different directions. Anyway, this particular one has sat in a shed for the last 10 or more years, not exactly ideal conditions.[/quote]

Yes,it does just like any other piece of wood.It eather matures or rots...
-What's "crappy pieces of wood" and who's to judge? Woods from the same species could be cut to be plywood,while the next log is sold somewhere else and ends up as a bass body with some commercial name... hmmm... let's say... "Mahogany" this mahogany and that one...300 species man...

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366209690' post='2049636']
2 different acoustics with the same electro-magnetic pickup will sound more of less the same, but it's a completely different ball game. Piezo pickups actually pick up the resonance in the timber, so if you are so in to the tonewood deal, you should start installing piezo pickups in your guitars, because that's the only way you'll get the benefit of them in an electric guitar or bass. [/quote]

Ok...
I think we got quite an experience diffence here...well,i guess you'll change your mind after...let's say 25 years or some...

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366211633' post='2049676']
Well yes, but that's why the difference between an acoustic instrument and an electric instrument is so different, and I only ever referred to electric instruments here when talking about tonewoods. Acoustic instruments are a completely different ball game.
[/quote]

No.
Acoustics have used electric pus first.They are the reason of electric instruments excistance...
Pus and electronics are invented therefor: Amplify the acoustic sound.
Then,new problems appeared,like unwanted noises that came through the pus to the speaker!
It's all so related...

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366234011' post='2050054']
No.
Acoustics have used electric pus first.They are the reason of electric instruments excistance...
Pus and electronics are invented therefor: Amplify the acoustic sound.
Then,new problems appeared,like unwanted noises that came through the pus to the speaker!
It's all so related...
[/quote]

Where did that come from? Not once did I say that acoustic instruments don't use electro-magnetic pickups.

I'm going to stop replying to you, because I feel like i'm confusing you.