Tonewoods

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366234405' post='2050059']
I'm going to stop replying to you, because I feel like i'm confusing you.[/quote]

I didn't ask you to stop...i'm enjoying it...but you gotta try hard to confuse me!
(I've been 20 too,i know how it is,"i've grown but haven't forgotten"...)
-I'm not answering to you only,but everyone reading!

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366234405' post='2050059']
Where did that come from? Not once did I say that acoustic instruments don't use electro-magnetic pickups.[/quote]

That came from History:
Since the first "amplified guitars" appeared 'till today,it's the same questions that new players ask,with the influence between pus and tonewoods beeing first!
What i mean,is that electro-acoustics explain this "relationship" in praxis,while solibodies are still surrounded with rumors...

-Someone tell Mr Benedetto,that pus don't need any tonewoods to give out a good sound!

Edited April 18, 2013 by yann

[MiltyG565]

Apparently I don't need to try hard to confuse you, because you're just going off in a tangent to my point and making ridiculous assumptions, like "It makes a difference in an acoustic instrument, so why not a solid bodied electric?". As established, acoustic instruments are a different ball game, and making them sound different isn't difficult, nearly everything changes how they sound, even the glue they use, and the humidity.

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366268513' post='2050224']
Apparently I don't need to try hard to confuse you, because you're just going off in a tangent to my point and making ridiculous assumptions, like "It makes a difference in an acoustic instrument, so why not a solid bodied electric?". As established, acoustic instruments are a different ball game, and making them sound different isn't difficult, nearly everything changes how they sound, even the glue they use, and the humidity.
[/quote]

Ηaha...as i said boy,you just can't confuse me,i'm a proven luthier,and i know what i'm saying...
-Keep in mind there's serious professionals out there,and might be reading what we write here,someone will "correct" me if what i say is wrong!

-Ever heard of "expression" in playing?
This and only,makes acoustics and electrics (and all in between) the same ball game...
and that's where tonewoods do a serious job on electrics too,the response of an inst is not controlled only by pus and electronics!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366270402' post='2050241']
Ηaha...as i said boy,you just can't confuse me,i'm a proven luthier,and i know what i'm saying...
-Keep in mind there's serious professionals out there,and might be reading what we write here,someone will "correct" me if what i say is wrong!

-Ever heard of "expression" in playing?
This and only,makes acoustics and electrics (and all in between) the same ball game...
and that's where tonewoods do a serious job on electrics too,the response of an inst is not controlled only by pus and electronics!
[/quote]

Ok, make 2 basses. Make one with your tone woods, and one without, and completely the same otherwise, then upload sound samples of both so I can hear the difference. I trust you not to make adjustments to the EQ or anything like that to artificially change the sound so it appears different. If you can prove me wrong, i'll hold my hands up and admit that I was wrong.

I understand perfectly well that some woods have more resonant qualities than others, I am a timber man myself, but what I do contest is the notion that a little block of mahogany inside a musicman makes any difference to the sound whatsoever. Does a rosewood fretboard sound different from a maple fretboard? No, it doesn't. They sound the same.

And finally, your "expression" comment. Basically, what I took from that was "Well, it doesn't matter anyway, because expression is what makes the sound so acoustics and electrics are the same". Sorry, no.

Don't write me off on the fact that I am 20. That's ageism, and stereotyping. See me for who I am, not my age. That's a low tactic.

Edited April 18, 2013 by MiltyG565

[Sharkfinger]

I would argue that instead of looking at high-end, custom made instruments, we should be looking at mass-produced ones, where they strive for consistency in terms of build quality, shape, etc. To that end, I would point out that the Ibanez SR500 and SR600 are identical in every way, other than the body wood. With exactly the same setup, would they not be the best basis for comparison?

[yann]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366270948' post='2050248']
Ok, make 2 basses. Make one with your tone woods, and one without, and completely the same otherwise, then upload sound samples of both so I can hear the difference. I trust you not to make adjustments to the EQ or anything like that to artificially change the sound so it appears different. If you can prove me wrong, i'll hold my hands up and admit that I was wrong.[/quote]

Gimme a good reason for this..."make 2 basses and upload samples"!
-I'm not trying to prove you wrong,it's only some things just are there and don't change,it's just nature in combination with mechanics...
You'll know someday,you got the guts,eyes and ears i see,all you need is experience and open eyes and ears to gain it!

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366270948' post='2050248']
I understand perfectly well that some woods have more resonant qualities than others, I am a timber man myself, but what I do contest is the notion that a little block of mahogany inside a musicman makes any difference to the sound whatsoever. Does a rosewood fretboard sound different from a maple fretboard? No, it doesn't. They sound the same.[/quote]

Yes,it does-NO they don't...
What they call "wood tapping" is NOT a show,it's a skill...(it is a show by some,who don't really know what thay do or hear,and they're so funny!!)!
And by those who know what they do,it's even an Art... tonewood selection cannot be done by everyone but by "natural born" only!
(It's the same with players,and sound engineers,not everyone's the best,it's just a few!)
Since you're a timberman,you got the chance to make your own comparisons,all you need is patience and time,wood is like wine...

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366270948' post='2050248']
And finally, your "expression" comment. Basically, what I took from that was "Well, it doesn't matter anyway, because expression is what makes the sound so acoustics and electrics are the same". Sorry, no.[/quote]

Give back what you took now! Expression makes the musician,sound comes next and naturally...

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366270948' post='2050248']
Don't write me off on the fact that I am 20. That's ageism, and stereotyping. See me for who I am, not my age. That's a low tactic.[/quote]

No tactics,always freestyle...it ain't work here...
I somehow see who you are,but your age says: No experience...(this ain't bad,enjoy your age!)
I write you like your "dad",otherways i would ignore you...other guys of your age and attitude might read this too...hehe...

[quote name='Sharkfinger' timestamp='1366274130' post='2050293']
I would argue that instead of looking at high-end, custom made instruments, we should be looking at mass-produced ones, where they strive for consistency in terms of build quality, shape, etc. To that end, I would point out that the Ibanez SR500 and SR600 are identical in every way, other than the body wood. With exactly the same setup, would they not be the best basis for comparison?
[/quote]

Ok,now we're talking!
High end interrests everyone,but everyone buys the other end...

[skankdelvar]

Thing about variables is they're just that. Variable. Some variables make an apparently big difference, others make a smaller difference. The relative importance of these variables are what fuels debate, drives site traffic and keeps Ped in Gregg's pasties.

But let us draw a veil over our co-leader's dietary shortcomings. .

Most importantly (IMO) there's the variable of our 'acoustic' expectations, which are based on what we've read, what we've heard, where we heard it, how the amp (if any) was set up, whether what we heard was live or recorded and - if recorded - mics, DI's, room bleed, desk, EQ, engineer's ears, monitors, mix, mastering and output format.

If we then add in matters of taste, the relative humidity of the listening environment and whether the chap next door is having sausages for his tea, you can see how things can get wildly out of hand.

And that's even before we commence to try to describe sound through the medium of the written word, which is a bit like trying to explain sculpture through the medium of dance. My tango interpretation of the Venus Di Milo is widely appreciated in these parts, I can tell you.

About the only useful observation I can make is that whenever I'm contemplating the purchase of an acoustic instrument (oh, curse you Mr Martin for your lovely little Mex cheapies) I have a bit of a strum on it. Then I face into a wall or a corner and have another strum to get a very crude sense of what's coming back. Then I ask the bloke in the shop to have a bit of a[i]nother s[/i]trum and I go stand a distance away and listen. Then I decide if I like what I'm hearing? Am I getting a little tingle in the scrotal sac?

It was on this basis that I recently decided that (were funds ever to come free) I should rather purchase a (sapele / stratobond / richlite) DRS1 than a (proper) D18. Because the wood may be inferior on the Mex, but then so is my bank account.

Edited April 18, 2013 by skankdelvar

[Roland Rock]

To my mind, logically the wood must be a factor to some degree. The neck and body woods (along with nut, frets and bridge) are part of the structure that anchor the vibrating string. Vibrations are transferred into that structure, and this will have some bearing on the vibrations in the string, and consequently what the pickup detects.

Drawing conclusions by listening to different guitar types is futile, as there are too many variables. Please can someone get 50 alder and 50 ash bodies, then swap the same neck, hardware and electronics between them all and do a poll plus frequency measurements. ;-)

Edited April 18, 2013 by Roland Rock

[Dave Vader]

Interestingly I like rather cheap boxy sounds, which helps. Hence my fondness for my 1956 Hofner Congress (not a lovely guitar, just old)
I also have a hankering for an old Fender Villager or Kingman, just to see if they sound as horrid as they should.

[MiltyG565]

I can say, in all honesty, without a hint of trepidation, that a rosewood fretboard does not sound any different from a maple fretboard. Not even acoustically. I've played a lot of instruments, and heard a lot of good sounds, but i know for a fact that the wood used for the fretboard does not make 1 iota of difference to the sound. But this is very much like debating whether God exists now.

The only difference the wood in the body of a solid bodied electric guitar will ever make is if used acoustically. Even then, it's negligible. Solid bodied electric weren't meant to be played acoustically. That is why the only parts that matter in the sound you hear are the strings and electronics.

I might not have your experience, Yann, but I do know what I hear.

[Mr. Foxen]

Acoustics of an instrument matter. You can render an electric instrument acoustic via a very simple process: unplug it from an amp. Then you can find how they sound different to each other, even though the electronics are not making a contribution, aside from the magnetic pull of the pickups on the strings. Also, the acoustics still matter when plugged in, since feedback is an acoustic phenomenon, and fairly significant to some styles of playing. The mistake people make is in assuming the label applied to the wood determines its good or bad acoustic properties, and that is not the case. The acoustic properties of an instrument are fairly individual, not derived from 'being mahogany'. Manufactured electric instruments use woods that are reasonably consistent for that reason, it is pretty important, but occasionally you just get a bad sounding one, and it just isn't worth applying the electronics to try and get a good sound from bad acoustics.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366294890' post='2050662']
That is why the only parts that matter in the sound you hear are the strings and electronics.

I might not have your experience, Yann, but I do know what I hear.
[/quote]

And the construction, bridge and nut design, etc. etc.

Otherwise the 4 different guitars I have put my favourite set of old Dimarzio pickups in would all have sounded the same.
Which they didn't.

I am agreeing with you on the whole Milty, just you seem to have gone too far the other way.

Oli is right (he very often is)

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1366297278' post='2050715']
And the construction, bridge and nut design, etc. etc.

Otherwise the 4 different guitars I have put my favourite set of old Dimarzio pickups in would all have sounded the same.
Which they didn't.

I am agreeing with you on the whole Milty, just you seem to have gone too far the other way.

Oli is right (he very often is)
[/quote]

Yes, I'd said so earlier in the thread that the nut and bridge also make a difference to the sound.


[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366296980' post='2050709']
Acoustics of an instrument matter. You can render an electric instrument acoustic via a very simple process: unplug it from an amp. Then you can find how they sound different to each other, even though the electronics are not making a contribution, aside from the magnetic pull of the pickups on the strings. Also, the acoustics still matter when plugged in, since feedback is an acoustic phenomenon, and fairly significant to some styles of playing. The mistake people make is in assuming the label applied to the wood determines its good or bad acoustic properties, and that is not the case. The acoustic properties of an instrument are fairly individual, not derived from 'being mahogany'. Manufactured electric instruments use woods that are reasonably consistent for that reason, it is pretty important, but occasionally you just get a bad sounding one, and it just isn't worth applying the electronics to try and get a good sound from bad acoustics.
[/quote]

In my opinion, electric instruments tend to sound completely rubbish acoustically anyway. And acoustic instrument is the only one that sounds anyway decent acoustically.

[Mr. Foxen]

If you electric guitar is not plugged into anything electric, it is an acoustic instrument. And surprisingly enough, if you make one to sound really nice acoustically, it correspondingly sounds really nice electrically with minimal electrical trickery.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366298844' post='2050746']
If you electric guitar is not plugged into anything electric, it is an acoustic instrument. And surprisingly enough, if you make one to sound really nice acoustically, it correspondingly sounds really nice electrically with minimal electrical trickery.
[/quote]

I've never come across an electric instrument tthatt sounds good acoustically though. They quite often sound good plugged in though.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366299664' post='2050758']
I've never come across an electric instrument tthatt sounds good acoustically though. They quite often sound good plugged in though.
[/quote]

You need to play my mates old Fender P bass. By golly it sounds lovely unplugged.
Actually most of my electrics sound nice unplugged as well, which is probably why they're the ones i've kept.
Teriffyingly my Sue Ryder Telecaster (all of 60 quid brand new) sounds beautiful unplugged, and I am still hunting down the right price appropriate pickups to amplify it properly.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366299664' post='2050758']
I've never come across an electric instrument tthatt sounds good acoustically though. They quite often sound good plugged in though.
[/quote]

This lack of experience is probably why you make so many flawed assertions in this thread.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366300059' post='2050775']
This lack of experience is probably why you make so many flawed assertions in this thread.
[/quote]

I've played plenty of instruments, which includes high end instruments, and none of them sound good acoustically. They might sound good acoustically for an electric, but not when compared to an actual acoustic guitar or bass.

[MiltyG565]

The bass in my avatar is an OLP with a basswood body, and It sounds really good plugged in, but less so acoustically.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366294890' post='2050662']
I can say, in all honesty, without a hint of trepidation, that a rosewood fretboard does not sound any different from a maple fretboard. Not even acoustically. I've played a lot of instruments, and heard a lot of good sounds, but i know for a fact that the wood used for the fretboard does not make 1 iota of difference to the sound. But this is very much like debating whether God exists now.

The only difference the wood in the body of a solid bodied electric guitar will ever make is if used acoustically. Even then, it's negligible. Solid bodied electric weren't meant to be played acoustically. That is why the only parts that matter in the sound you hear are the strings and electronics.

I might not have your experience, Yann, but I do know what I hear.
[/quote]
100% totally incorrect on all points.

You honestly cannot hear the difference between a Rosewood and a Maple board?!?!? You have never heard an electric bass that sounded good unplugged......Really???

Honestly Milty, you are completely entitled to your opinion - but it is an entirely wrong one.

Oh...and there is no substitute for experience btw. Yes, you do know what you hear...but have you considered that you may not be very good at hearing?

Edited April 18, 2013 by White Cloud

[Mr. Foxen]

'Loud' and 'good', are different things.

[yann]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366310605' post='2050971']
'Loud' and 'good', are different things.[/quote]
+1 db...

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366310481' post='2050968']
100% totally incorrect on all points.

You honestly cannot hear the difference between a Rosewood and a Maple board?!?!? You have never heard an electric bass that sounded good unplugged......Really???

Honestly Milty, you are completely entitled to your opinion - but it is an entirely wrong one.

Oh...and there is no substitute for experience btw. Yes, you do know what you hear...but have you considered that you may not be very good at hearing?
[/quote]

Nope. There is no difference between a maple fretboard and a rosewood one. They sound exactly the same in an electric guitar or bass. Do you have 2 of the exact same instrument, one with maple and one with rosewood for the fretboard to verify that they do sound the same?

There's no difference in the sound of these 2 guitars that couldn't be explained by a slight variance in the electronic components of this guitar. I didn't even watch this video, I just listened. There's the slightest difference between the 2, only the slightest difference, but nothing here that says that it's anything other than the variance of the electronic components of these guitars. It's all in the mind. you convince yourself they sound different because of what you see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQffNqkx-mM

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366310481' post='2050968']
Oh...and there is no substitute for experience btw. Yes, you do know what you hear...but have you considered that you may not be very good at hearing?
[/quote]

Wow, MEOW! Put those claws away

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366311575' post='2050989']
Do you have 2 of the exact same instrument, one with maple and one with rosewood for the fretboard to verify that they do sound the same?
[/quote]

You need to do that to verify your assertion that there is a lack of difference. The fact that two guitars will sound different is proof that the acoustic properties of a guitar makes a difference. The mere fact that the 'exact same' part is necessary to eliminate variables is down to the entirely correct assumption that being different makes a difference.