Tonewoods

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366311820' post='2050997']
You need to do that to verify your assertion that there is a lack of difference. The fact that two guitars will sound different is proof that the acoustic properties of a guitar makes a difference. The mere fact that the 'exact same' part is necessary to eliminate variables is down to the entirely correct assumption that being different makes a difference.
[/quote]

What i'm saying is that the 2 guitars need to be exactly the same, other than the wood on the fretboard. I mean as close to identical as could be, including setup, output of pickups, strength of pickups, amount of wire used between pots, the pots themselves. All of these things need to be the same. then, the 2 guitars need to be played through the same amp with the same EQ and everything, and we need to have a blind test, just so that we know that our eyes aren't fooling our brains, and if there genuinely is a difference, i'll admit I'm wrong, but so far, in any sound samples i have heard or conducted myself, there's be a negligible difference, which in all probability is more likely to be down to the electronics.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366311575' post='2050989']
Nope. There is no difference between a maple fretboard and a rosewood one. They sound exactly the same in an electric guitar or bass. Do you have 2 of the exact same instrument, one with maple and one with rosewood for the fretboard to verify that they do sound the same?

There's no difference in the sound of these 2 guitars that couldn't be explained by a slight variance in the electronic components of this guitar. I didn't even watch this video, I just listened. There's the slightest difference between the 2, only the slightest difference, but nothing here that says that it's anything other than the variance of the electronic components of these guitars. It's all in the mind. you convince yourself they sound different because of what you see.

[/quote]
Yes, there is a distinct difference between boards, and yes I do have two basses of the same model with different boards...both sounding, feeling and responding differently (Lakland 44-01's). Further to this, with over 35 years of playing experience, and having owned over 50 basses from all price brackets (and fingerboard types) I would assert that the difference tonewoods make is distinct, audible and perceptable.

I know you like Derren Brown mate, however your statement that it is "all in the mind" is in the simplest of terms....wholly wrong. State of mind, attitudes and cognitive cognisance have their place ....but I'm actually a musician...it's all in my ears, my hands and my heart.

With all due respect, I would suggest that you actually don't have a very good ear!

Edited April 18, 2013 by White Cloud

[yann]

Hey Milty,
can you hear any difference here? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8oyi3yg1rE&list=UU1wEVFBAuq6kr-n9KgmwJGA&index=11

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366312239' post='2051003']
What i'm saying is that the 2 guitars need to be exactly the same, other than the wood on the fretboard. I mean as close to identical as could be, including setup, output of pickups, strength of pickups, amount of wire used between pots, the pots themselves. All of these things need to be the same. then, the 2 guitars need to be played through the same amp with the same EQ and everything, and we need to have a blind test, just so that we know that our eyes aren't fooling our brains, and if there genuinely is a difference, i'll admit I'm wrong, but so far, in any sound samples i have heard or conducted myself, there's be a negligible difference, which in all probability is more likely to be down to the electronics.
[/quote]

Let us know when you've done it to support your assertion that different things aren't different. You'll find actually making some guitars to be quite educational when it comes to knowledge about how guitars sounds.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366312751' post='2051015']
Hey Milty,
can you hear any difference here? :
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8oyi3yg1rE&list=UU1wEVFBAuq6kr-n9KgmwJGA&index=11[/media]
[/quote]
I could not hear anything...there is no pickups or strings fitted to those pieces of wood !

Edited April 18, 2013 by White Cloud

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366312402' post='2051007']
With all due respect, I would suggest that you actually don't have a very good ear!
[/quote]

What an insult. Why are people resorting to personal attacks? I'm trying to keep things scientific. Because you believe you hear a sound that I don't, I must just be deaf? Honestly, this is why I said earlier, it's becoming like debating whether God exists. There's no proof for me that says the material of the fretboard makes any difference whatsoever to the amplified sound of say, a stratocaster, for the sake of argument. I do believe that somebody with your "experience" might have fooled themselves a little into believing their is a difference, because that is what they want to hear.


[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366312751' post='2051015']
Hey Milty,
can you hear any difference here? :
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8oyi3yg1rE&list=UU1wEVFBAuq6kr-n9KgmwJGA&index=11[/media]
[/quote]

I never once said that wood doesn't sound different, that's absurd. Banging to different pieces of wood off a little block doesn't disprove what i've said though.

I don't believe that the material if the fretboard makes a noticeable difference to the overall amplified sound of an electric guitar or bass.

Did you guys watch the video I linked? Those 2 strats sounded very similar. Yes, there was a slight difference to the sound, but were they built at the same time? do the pickups have the same output? Are the electrical components made using the same materials?

See, that's the only way this will ever be solved. 2 guitars, built as similarly as possible. If they are made years apart in different factories, forget it. It's not a scientific test.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366312402' post='2051007']
With all due respect, I would suggest that you actually don't have a very good ear!
[/quote]
[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366312881' post='2051017']
I could not hear anything...there is no pickups or strings fitted to those pieces of wood !
[/quote]

Point proven.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366313174' post='2051023']
What an insult. Why are people resorting to personal attacks? I'm trying to keep things scientific. Because you believe you hear a sound that I don't, I must just be deaf? Honestly, this is why I said earlier, it's becoming like debating whether God exists. There's no proof for me that says the material of the fretboard makes any difference whatsoever to the amplified sound of say, a stratocaster, for the sake of argument. I do believe that somebody with your "experience" might have fooled themselves a little into believing their is a difference, because that is what they want to hear.




I never once said that wood doesn't sound different, that's absurd. Banging to different pieces of wood off a little block doesn't disprove what i've said though.

I don't believe that the material if the fretboard makes a noticeable difference to the overall amplified sound of an electric guitar or bass.

Did you guys watch the video I linked? Those 2 strats sounded very similar. Yes, there was a slight difference to the sound, but were they built at the same time? do the pickups have the same output? Are the electrical components made using the same materials?

See, that's the only way this will ever be solved. 2 guitars, built as similarly as possible. If they are made years apart in different factories, forget it. It's not a scientific test.
[/quote]
Excuse me my friend, but it was certainly not a personal attack in any way shape or form!

We all have strengths and weaknesses. As a musician I am very lucky...genetically I have been gifted with an exceptionally good ear for musical sounds/nuances...many are not as lucky. From observing your interaction with others on this topic it has become apparent that you are having difficulty actually hearing that which is audible to others.

As for your frequent references to God...that is perhaps not a place you should go on a forum such as this.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366313650' post='2051029']
Point proven.
[/quote]

How?


[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366313705' post='2051031']
Excuse me my friend, but it was certainly not a personal attack in any way shape or form!

We all have strengths and weaknesses. As a musician I am very lucky...genetically I have been gifted with an exceptionally good ear for musical sounds/nuances...many are not as lucky. From observing your interaction with others on this topic it has become apparent that you are having difficulty actually hearing that which is audible to others.

As for your frequent references to God...that is perhaps not a place you should go on a forum such as this.
[/quote]

My hearing is very good, thank you. You can't tell from what I say here that my hearing is bad just because you disagree with what I am saying. How do I know that your hearing isn't terrible? Well it must be, you think i'm wrong. See how it works?

[Mr. Foxen]

The part where a comparison of two sounds was posted, and you claimed to not be able to hear anything. Pretty much covers it.

[yann]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366312881' post='2051017']
I could not hear anything...there is no pickups or strings fitted to those pieces of wood ! [/quote]
"Ι knew you'd say that..."...Milty is guilty...
EDIT:
MiltyG565:
-I bet you ain't def,just narrowminded...but it's this mind that processes the incoming signal...

-Well,you ain't totally wrong,such guitars do sound allmost the same...but it's a matter of quality level only.
It's gonna take some time till you can judge what's clear and what muddy sound,and what makes two little pieces of wood so precious...

Edited April 18, 2013 by yann

[White Cloud]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366314188' post='2051044']
How?




My hearing is very good, thank you. You can't tell from what I say here that my hearing is bad just because you disagree with what I am saying. How do I know that your hearing isn't terrible? Well it must be, you think i'm wrong. See how it works?
[/quote]
Your hearing may be very good...but how musical are you Milty? You see, many musicians are artists...and do not get hung up on "science". Art has no rules.

I know that my hearing is extremely acute from experience as a musician playing at a very high standard and level with other top class musicians. In fact, I would assert that, with no sense of egotism, that I am a very gifted musician. ..therefore I know my hearing is not "terrible".

I accept that you have backed yourself into a corner on this thread, and therefore can never compromise publicly in any way ....and that's okay. You are entitled to your personal opinions.

The truth is the truth regardless.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366314373' post='2051047']
The part where a comparison of two sounds was posted, and you claimed to not be able to hear anything. Pretty much covers it.
[/quote]

What, those 2 little bits of wood? I never claimed that. I know that woods sound different, even when they are the same species. My argument is that the wood used in the fretboard doesn't make a difference or get picked up by the pickup. Those 2 strats was a good example. Yes, there was a slight difference in sound, that's difficult to deny, but it doesn't show that the difference in the fretboard material is the reason for that. That might seem like the obvious thing, but are the pickups the same age? Do they have the same output? the same magnetic strength? Are the pots the same brand? Have the pots on one guitar been used more than the other? Are the strings the same age? same brand? same gauge? is the nut the same material? There are just too many unknowns to say whether that incredibly slight difference in sound was due to the difference in fretboard material.

[Mr. Foxen]

It was a simple question, and nothing to do with fingerboards. You simply didn't answer it. You continue to throw around irrelevances as an excuse. All those factors were eliminated in that very simple video. Straight comparison of two pieces of wood, sounding different to my ears at least, and a simple question as to whether they sounded different to you, but you stall until someone else has the answer then parrot it.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1366311329' post='2050984']
+1 db...
[/quote]

Genius



Also, my old strat is now on it's 5th neck, every time I have swapped necks the sound has changed completely, it started out with an old hofner neck, that was seriously old and hard. Also had a tele shaped headstock, and sounded super jangly and harsh, like a tele. Then it had a softer neck with a rosewood fretboard, and sounded mellower, fatter and altogether bassier. After that it got a maple neck with a seperate maple board on it, and was somewhere between the two. Next up came another ancient thing from a teisco, which was back like that old hofner neck, though not the same. Finally it now sports a 90s japanese Squire one piece maple neck, which sounds different from all these again. I'm not saying the wood type made any difference at all, but all those different bits of wood were attached to the same body and pickups and sounded utterly different, even through a bucketload of distortion and fuzz.
Scientific enough?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366314790' post='2051058']
Your hearing may be very good...but how musical are you Milty? You see, many musicians are artists...and do not get hung up on "science". Art has no rules.

I know that my hearing is extremely acute from experience as a musician playing at a very high standard and level with other top class musicians. In fact, I would assert that, with no sense of egotism, that I am a very gifted musician. ..therefore I know my hearing is not "terrible".

I accept that you have backed yourself into a corner on this thread, and therefore can never compromise publicly in any way ....and that's okay. You are entitled to your personal opinions.

The truth is the truth regardless.
[/quote]

What you are saying now is "Well, ok, maybe your hearing isn't terrible, but this is art, fellow!" What does that even mean? I'm not hearing things the right way now? I'm hearing them right but interpreting them wrong? The only way to settle it is by using a scientific approach, and you know it.

My musicality has little to do with it, especially since you have just conceded that my hearing in fact isn't terrible. I've been picking out sounds and zoning in on certain sounds for as long as I can remember. I can hear my phone charge for goodness sake. I can hear it connect to wireless internet. What you are forgetting, is that at 20, my hearing is probably better than yours. I have no idea what age any of you are, but i'm fairly confident that I am at least 10 years younger than any of you.

I have not backed myself in to any corner. At the very least, i've been ganged up on, as tends to happen on here from time to time. I have said that I would admit that I am wrong given the proper evidence, but as it stands, I have heard or seen nothing that would make me change my mind. The usual thing for you to state here is my lack of "experience", but I can assure you that i know what I hear. I've owned at least 15 basses and 5 guitars, and listened to many many different sounds, but never have I heard a rosewood fretboard on a guitar or bass, and a maple fretboard on a guitar or bass that changes the way that guitar or bass actually sounds. And as i've said, there might be a slight difference between the sound of them, but you have to eliminate as much variance between the instruments as possible, and I haven't seen that yet.

It may be art, but that does not give you some magic power to declare what "the truth" is because I have a different opinion. For all we know so far, and in my own personal opinion, what I am saying is "the truth".

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366315204' post='2051063']
It was a simple question, and nothing to do with fingerboards. You simply didn't answer it. You continue to throw around irrelevances as an excuse. All those factors were eliminated in that very simple video. Straight comparison of two pieces of wood, sounding different to my ears at least, and a simple question as to whether they sounded different to you, but you stall until someone else has the answer then parrot it.
[/quote]

Yes, of course I heard a difference, but that was never the point. I've never once said that woods don't have different sounds. If we are allowed to just throw in random questions - Who makes the best marmalade?

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1366315340' post='2051067']
Genius



Also, my old strat is now on it's 5th neck, every time I have swapped necks the sound has changed completely, it started out with an old hofner neck, that was seriously old and hard. Also had a tele shaped headstock, and sounded super jangly and harsh, like a tele. Then it had a softer neck with a rosewood fretboard, and sounded mellower, fatter and altogether bassier. After that it got a maple neck with a seperate maple board on it, and was somewhere between the two. Next up came another ancient thing from a teisco, which was back like that old hofner neck, though not the same. Finally it now sports a 90s japanese Squire one piece maple neck, which sounds different from all these again. I'm not saying the wood type made any difference at all, but all those different bits of wood were attached to the same body and pickups and sounded utterly different, even through a bucketload of distortion and fuzz.
Scientific enough?
[/quote]
Milty says its all in your mind amigo!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366315824' post='2051073']
Yes, of course I heard a difference, but that was never the point. I've never once said that woods don't have different sounds. If we are allowed to just throw in random questions - Who makes the best marmalade?
[/quote]

This thread is about the different sounds that woods make. Hence the name. Avoiding answering a question as to being able to hear the difference between the tones of two pieces of wood pretty much indicates the value of your contribution to a thread such as this.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[Kiwi]

Ah the herd mentality, this is democracy in action.

Its like trying to fight a mudslide. You can state your case but beyond that, let it wash over you.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1366315340' post='2051067']
Genius



Also, my old strat is now on it's 5th neck, every time I have swapped necks the sound has changed completely, it started out with an old hofner neck, that was seriously old and hard. Also had a tele shaped headstock, and sounded super jangly and harsh, like a tele. Then it had a softer neck with a rosewood fretboard, and sounded mellower, fatter and altogether bassier. After that it got a maple neck with a seperate maple board on it, and was somewhere between the two. Next up came another ancient thing from a teisco, which was back like that old hofner neck, though not the same. Finally it now sports a 90s japanese Squire one piece maple neck, which sounds different from all these again. I'm not saying the wood type made any difference at all, but all those different bits of wood were attached to the same body and pickups and sounded utterly different, even through a bucketload of distortion and fuzz.
Scientific enough?
[/quote]

No. You've told us about the fretboard. There's no way the nut could be the same on every one. The setup was also bound to vary a little. And that's assuming you used the exact same strings over the life of the guitar, and amp, and lead. This isn't about the acoustic sound, it's about the amplified sound.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1366316077' post='2051079']
This thread is about the different sounds that woods make. Hence the name. Avoiding answering a question as to being able to hear the difference between the tones of two pieces of wood pretty much indicates the value of your contribution to a thread such as this.
[/quote]

It wasn't relevant to the discussion that you, I, Yann and White Cloud were taking part in. I never said that woods don't sound different, therefore, it wasn't a relevant question.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1366316179' post='2051082']
Ah the herd mentality, this is democracy in action.

Its like trying to fight a mudslide. You can state your case but beyond that, let it wash over you.
[/quote]

Yup. Unfortunately, I'm not one to start a mudslide then just walk away from it

[White Cloud]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1366315721' post='2051071']
What you are saying now is "Well, ok, maybe your hearing isn't terrible, but this is art, fellow!" What does that even mean? I'm not hearing things the right way now? I'm hearing them right but interpreting them wrong? The only way to settle it is by using a scientific approach, and you know it.

My musicality has little to do with it, especially since you have just conceded that my hearing in fact isn't terrible. I've been picking out sounds and zoning in on certain sounds for as long as I can remember. I can hear my phone charge for goodness sake. I can hear it connect to wireless internet. What you are forgetting, is that at 20, my hearing is probably better than yours. I have no idea what age any of you are, but i'm fairly confident that I am at least 10 years younger than any of you.

I have not backed myself in to any corner. At the very least, i've been ganged up on, as tends to happen on here from time to time. I have said that I would admit that I am wrong given the proper evidence, but as it stands, I have heard or seen nothing that would make me change my mind. The usual thing for you to state here is my lack of "experience", but I can assure you that i know what I hear. I've owned at least 15 basses and 5 guitars, and listened to many many different sounds, but never have I heard a rosewood fretboard on a guitar or bass, and a maple fretboard on a guitar or bass that changes the way that guitar or bass actually sounds. And as i've said, there might be a slight difference between the sound of them, but you have to eliminate as much variance between the instruments as possible, and I haven't seen that yet.

It may be art, but that does not give you some magic power to declare what "the truth" is because I have a different opinion. For all we know so far, and in my own personal opinion, what I am saying is "the truth".
[/quote]
Sorry that you feel ganged up on old boy, but I am simply stating my point of view...in the same way as you are.

The fact that you cannot hear or feel the difference, and that you are looking at it from a scientific, evidential perspective leads me to believe that you don't have a particularly good ear for musical nuances. Also, If you cannot differentiate between art and science then that says it all really. Do you play music in a scientific or emotional way...or both?

Anyway, its all good. You are entitled to believe whatever you like....I disagree, but that is what makes us all different.

Edited April 18, 2013 by White Cloud

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1366316590' post='2051092']
Sorry that you feel ganged up on old boy, but I am simply stating my point of view...in the same way as you are.

The fact that you cannot hear or feel the difference, and that you are looking at it from a scientific, evidential perspective leads me to believe that you don't have a particularly good ear for musical nuances. Also, If you cannot differentiate between art and science then that says it all really. Do you play music in a scientific or emotional way...or both?

Anyway, its all good. You are entitled to believe whatever you like....I disagree, but that is what makes us all different.
[/quote]

Again, you've made incorrect assumptions based on what I have written here. I love science and music, and science is useful to explain things, and music is good to express things. The guitars are the tools in this process. But since people insist on saying that the fretboard material is such an important part of the sound, the only way to really find out is under scientific conditions. I don't see how that tells you anything about my views on music. My hypothesis is that the fretboard doesn't contribute much to the sound of the guitar, as the sound is picked up by an electric magnetic pickup installed on the guitar. Your hypothesis is that it makes a huge difference. who's right? Well, there's really only one way to say for sure (FIIIIGHT!), a scientific experiment. That's not the same as saying "Gee, I really love music. What I like most about it is how the strings are magnetically charged to interfere with the magnetic field of the electro magnetic pickup on the guitar, creating a charge that then gets turned into a sound".