Tonewoods

[Beer of the Bass]

Keeping a similar build style and materials between models, then tweaking the sound with pickup types and placement, wiring etc to suit that model is an eminently sensible and economical way for mass producers like Fender and G&L to do things. It doesn't say much about the significance of woods and construction style, more that Leo probably felt he'd hit upon a workable combination of ash or alder with bolt-on maple necks quite early on in his career.
By way of contrast, Les Paul spent quite a bit of time experimenting with different materials for guitar bodies, and I'm sure I remember seeing an interview where he was adamant that the maple top on a Gibson Les Paul was important to the sound of that model. It can't have been chosen for aesthetics, as the earlier models were painted gold.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[EssentialTension]

[b][size=4][url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/26/paraguayan-landfill-orchestra-music"]Paraguayan landfill orchestra makes sweet music from rubbish[/url][/size][/b]

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1367076496' post='2061041']
[b][size=4][url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/26/paraguayan-landfill-orchestra-music"]Paraguayan landfill orchestra makes sweet music from rubbish[/url][/size][/b]
[/quote]

Fairly skilled woodwork there.

[quote]We discovered which materials were most comfortable, [b]which projected the right sound [/b]and which withstood the tension of the strings.[/quote]

Chosen for tone.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1367077057' post='2061050']
Fairly skilled woodwork there.



Chosen for tone.
[/quote]

Materials for acoustic instruments usually are.

[donkelley]

I have also changed my opinion somewhat over the past year. mine though is moving more towards the wood making a difference... I used to think it made only a small amount if any but I've found it can make a big difference. Although I should clarify that it's not necessarily the body wood I'm hearing the differences between as much as the entire acoustic sound of the bass coming through in the amplified tone much more than I expected it to.

My personal revelation came when I got three new basses this year:
- usa made ernie ball musicman sub 5 fretted
- usa made carvin bunny brunel 5 fretted
- korea made ibanez btb 556 6 fretted

All have passive pickups with active preamps

All have very very well understood tones that are consistent to the lines and models of the instruments.
- sub: it's basically a stringray and sounds exactly like a classic stingray or pre-ebmm stingray
- bunny: it's got that carvin presence-cranked-to-11 tone and brightness as heard in multiple youtube videos
- btb: it's got that dark sound that lacks high end, lacks zing, and yet takes so well to extreme changes in the vari-mid eq.

Here's the thing: those are the amplified sounds, or recorded sounds.

Now if you just grab each of these basses and don't plug them in and listen to them, or have someone else do that while you sit wiht your eyes closed not knowing which one they're playing (as I tried doing recently), you can tell instantly which one they're playing:

acoustically, the sub sounds like it's amplified tone - zingy, scooped, slightly metallic, very funky with a refined but very present high end,
the bunny sounds intense, very bright, very responsive, shows fretting errors more than the stingray, and has a very alive complexity to the tone
the ibanez is quiet, dark but still good and with some clarity, somewhat compressed in dynamic response.

those are exactly as they sound plugged in, although of course the preamps can alter the tones to diverge from these fundamental tones to a certain degree.

So whatever the reason, I suspect it's mostly a combination of body woods and build style, the acoustic tone does come through the pickups, and yet I know from experience that the pickups and their placement have strong signature tones as well.

[EssentialTension]

Here we go again.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1375025823' post='2155895']
Here we go again.
[/quote]

Yup, I staying well out of it this time around.

[donkelley]

just posting things as I discover them.... the best lesson I learned in life is to follow your convictions whole heartedly, but be open to learning that you're wrong or that there is more than one simple correct answer to a complex question.

I'll also just add that it would be quiet a coincidence if each of these three unplugged basses sounded so distinct yet so much like their amplified tone. However a coincidence is of course possible!

Cheers! :-D

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1375027046' post='2155908']


Yup, I staying well out of it this time around.
[/quote]

I have really enjoyed reading all this!

I would love to build two near identical instruments with bodies / necks etc cut from the same lumber!! It would be a fantastic way to show how much difference a fingerboard makes!

If / when i have time i'll make a start on them!

[kurosawa]

I have 2 maple/rose SQ-series (Japan Squier 1983-1984) Ps. One neck is bright and the other is dark. One body is clear and loud and the other is muddy. There might potentially be more difference between individual pieces of wood than between this or that species of tree. It just seems that I get a better chance of finding what I want in a bolt-on with a maple neck (either rosewood or maple fretboard) and an alder body than any other combination. And what I want is mostly in terms of envelope quality (percussive attack and wide dynamic range) and not a certain tonal flavoring. I have an all-wenge Warmoth neck with a 6dB, 1kHz spike. No biggie. I have a stomp box EQ that can dial that out.

Edited August 24, 2013 by kurosawa

[4 Strings]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' timestamp='1377326664' post='2186183']
I have really enjoyed reading all this!

I would love to build two near identical instruments with bodies / necks etc cut from the same lumber!! It would be a fantastic way to show how much difference a fingerboard makes!

If / when i have time i'll make a start on them!
[/quote]

Wow, that's commitment!

Thing is you'd need to somehow have identical strings/pups etc as a tiny variation in any of these will overcome any tonal difference from a string on metal supported by a hardwood and string on metal supported my a slightly different hardwood. If you overcame this by mounting each neck on the same body and it would take so long that the memory of any the tone of the first one will have been lost. May spend more time A-B-A-B-A-B-ing and trying not to notice which neck is currently on than making the necks. And then, if any conclusion at all was drawn, it will still be down to your own perception. And then place in the context of a band etc...

Mind you, I'll add, "Unless the difference is marked." so as not to discourage an interesting experiment!

[Kiwi]

The two basses I'm building will be identical - wood from the same planks, electronics and pickups will be both the same also and graphite necks. One of them will have a fretless neck however but it might be possible to swap the necks around once built. Will be interesting to see if they sound the same...

[kurosawa]

I forgot to mention that the muddy-sounding body is 1/2 lb. heavier than the clear, loud body. So maybe if attempting to build two identical basses, it might be worth trying to obtain bodies from the same manufacturer within a couple ounces of each other. I bought an Allparts body last year from an eBay vendor (name unfortunately forgotten). Allparts bodies are available in first and second quality, with a $100 surcharge for lightweight bodies. The first quality ash PJ body I bought is 4 lb. even, but the vendor didn't add the surcharge for the light weight (it cost $200, IIRC). I saw both this vendor and another sell another such body without charging extra. When I need another body, I'll set up an eBay search to be notified by e-mail of Allparts bass body listings.

Edited August 24, 2013 by kurosawa

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' timestamp='1377326664' post='2186183']
I have really enjoyed reading all this!

I would love to build two near identical instruments with bodies / necks etc cut from the same lumber!! It would be a fantastic way to show how much difference a fingerboard makes!

If / when i have time i'll make a start on them!
[/quote]

I'd love to do that too. I would love to be proven wrong.

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1377360195' post='2186720']


I'd love to do that too. I would love to be proven wrong.
[/quote]

Well if every basschat member interested, invested a few quid in the interest of science i could make it happen! haha

We could have a bass raffle!! Haha

In all seriousness though we could put these together in the workshop and once finished, record them both on video and on logic / mac to try and come to some kind of conclusion

[BigRedX]

Remember that not only do you have to compare the differences between one species of wood and another, but also show that there is a significant degree of similarity between instruments made of the same species of wood.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377364739' post='2186798']
Remember that not only do you have to compare the differences between one species of wood and another, but also show that there is a significant degree of similarity between instruments made of the same species of wood.
[/quote]

That's true!

[kurosawa]

Seems I don't have anywhere near as much money to spend as you guys. Instead, I just pick up an interesting bass or neck or body here or there over the years, try with other parts, and keep the good ones. Happily, SQ-series P basses are the same $400 they were a decade ago (when they came of age). They now 30 years old and due to the ratty quality of post-Japan Squiers, won't foreseeably be collectable.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377364739' post='2186798']
Remember that not only do you have to compare the differences between one species of wood and another, but also show that there is a significant degree of similarity between instruments made of the same species of wood.
[/quote]

If species was the sole determining factor in properties, then the whole wood selection and seasoning thing wouldn't exist.

[leftybassman392]

Crikey! Closing in on 4 years and still going. Surely that must be some kind of record for a technical thread...?

Edited August 30, 2013 by leftybassman392

[kurosawa]

I used to joke with a friend about what I called his belief in "wood elves" inhabiting some trees but not others. Then some time around the turn of the millennium, having read the occasional listing by the Swami at thebasspalace.com that said "this bass is The One" or "this bass reeks of Oneness" and so on, took a chance on a SQ-series P (listed as "the One") for $350, and became an overnight convert to the idea that wood matters.

However, it's very frustrating. I've slowly come to agree with those who say the character of a bass lives in the neck, and these must simply be auditioned individually.

There are some species of body wood I steer clear of, like poplar, which in my experience can dramatically worsen the dead spots in even a very good neck, but there is no decent predictor of great sound, although I find that by limiting myself to alder and going for the lightest plank, I can avoid much unpleasantness.

Still, it's effort that I'm sure would be better spent practicing. If it weren't such an annoying and interesting problem, I'd probably have stopped experimenting with it years ago.

[4 Strings]

Goodness, you must buy a lot of basses

[donkelley]

[quote name='kurosawa' timestamp='1377853536' post='2192684']
There are some species of body wood I steer clear of, like poplar, which in my experience can dramatically worsen the dead spots in even a very good neck, but there is no decent predictor of great sound, although I find that by limiting myself to alder and going for the lightest plank, I can avoid much unpleasantness.
[/quote]

Just sayin.... my poplar bodied Ernie Ball Musicman US SUB 5 with 2 band active preamp is an exceptionally even sounding, trouble free, amazing toned stingray. I've never heard of any issues with poplar other than the ugly woodgrain and color, and my own evaluation as an owner of two 8 to 10 year old ernie ball musicman poplar-bodied basses is that it's one of my all time favorite tonewoods.

I would easily choose it over many other alternatives these days.

[Roland Rock]

Here's a really good quote from a very respected luthier. I thought it would be good for this thread:

[quote name='skelf']
I tend to look at the whole structure rather than one aspect of it. So with this bass it had a pretty stiff over all structure so you hear more of the string because the less of the vibration is absorbed by the body. This in turn tends to give you a faster attack transient and a more piano type quality with a longer sustain. If you built the bass with a Mahogany body and a Maple neck this would create a softer over all structure where more vibration generated by the string is absorbed by the structure. This in turn tends to lessen the initial attack and makes for a more rounded softer tone to the bass.
That is basically how I look on the woods within a bass in regard to sound. This is what I have arrived at empirically I don't really go in for detailed tone descriptions with regard to any specific wood all you can do is talk in generalities anything more precise is opinion or marketing as far as I am concerned. In the species specification for a wood there is -20 to +20 for the figures so one board can differ from the next by 40% so giving an accurate prediction as to how that piece of wood will sound in conjunction with all the other variables in an instrument is nothing more than conjecture.
[/quote]

Edited September 14, 2013 by Roland Rock

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1379156404' post='2209188']
Here's a really good quote from a very respected luthier. I thought it would be good for this thread:
[/quote]

Yes, agreed. Whether you actually hear the difference or not is another matter. This puts in place the nonsense about maple necks sounding 'bright' compared to a similar neck with a darker coloured but harder fingerboard, such as rosewood or ebony.

Also it puts to bed those who say a louder unplugged body will be 'better'. Quite the reverse for exactly this argument. Ideal body being a granite cliff.

I would also concede the flat spots in solid necks (5th fret, G string on almost every Fender) is wood affecting the tone (albeit more the string sustain due to the sympathetic resonance).