Tonewoods

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1398341678' post='2433122']
[url="http://janartsguitars.com/index.php/methodology/tonewood.html"]http://janartsguitar...y/tonewood.html[/url]

Not sure if this has been posted already but it's fascinating reading.
[/quote]
That link doesn't work.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1398798219' post='2437747']

That link doesn't work.
[/quote]

Seems to be working again now

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1398342651' post='2433150']
Fascinating reading, inasmuch as there's some huge assumptions being made about what are at the end of the day organic substances with large variations in consistency and makeup. All Indian Rosewood is 797kg/m3, then? Really? That's 'A Scientific Approach'? By that 'science', all Ash Precision bodies (for example) weigh the same...as they do...

More Marketing than Science, methinks...
[/quote]
You seem very keen to undermine him too. "Fascinating" didn't mean I supported his approach, fascinating meant I found it... fascinating.

Did you see that bit where he mentions wood has been measured by others? You'd have to research his references in order to prove that the work he's references isn't scientific. But he doesn't give those references so you aren't in a position to claim anything because he hasn't supplied you with enough information.

Clearly the article is just meant to be an article and not an academic paper so should be interpreted in that context.

I prefer to use my intelligence and take the article at face value. It is what it is.

[Muzz]

And I was using 'fascinating' in the context of the way the article's written, rather than any assertions made or accepted...you seem to have taken that word personally, which wasn't my intention.

I'm taking it on face value from the title of the site, which is "A Scientific Approach". Which that page isn't, it's a table of figures he could have made up on the spot for all you and I know. Still, it looks scientific, it might get him some business. 'Other values based on literature'?. My O Level science teacher would have had a fit...

I'd love to research his references (because as you spotted, that's the bit I have some trouble accepting), but as you point out, that's not possible. My cynicism with the Density figures springs from conversations with, amongst others, Warmoth, in which I've discussed blank weights for the same wood. I was quoted weights from 4 1/2lb to nearly 6lb, all for the same size blank, the same wood. That's a large variation in density. Still, that's only anecdotal, so you may have to take that at face value, too.

[FinnDave]

All the wood has to do is remain stable and keeps the important parts in the right places. I don't believe it makes any difference to the sound at all, Strings, pick ups, bridge and technique do, though.

[bengreen49]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1400850898' post='2457533']
All the wood has to do is remain stable and keeps the important parts in the right places. I don't believe it makes any difference to the sound at all, Strings, pick ups, bridge and technique do, though.
[/quote]

you are correct.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1400829047' post='2457267']
Seems to be working again now
[/quote]
Indeed.

[Nibody]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1400850898' post='2457533']
All the wood has to do is remain stable and keeps the important parts in the right places. I don't believe it makes any difference to the sound at all, Strings, pick ups, bridge and technique do, though.
[/quote]

I disagree. I have two parts built Precisions, both with identical Allparts maple necks, both with Fender "Original" replacement pickups with identical pots, wiring and capacitors, both with identical gotoh 201 bridges, both with identical Fender round wounds on of the same age and amount of usage/wear. One has an Alder Fender repacement MIM body, the other a Red Meranti body. Both are set up exactly the same in relation to action and pickup height. But oddly they DON'T sound identical. The Meranti bodied one sounds a lot brighter and more resonant than the Alder body. If it was just me picking this up I'd say it was imagination, but it has been commented on by my Guitarist many times.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Nibody' timestamp='1401284462' post='2462021']
I disagree. I have two parts built Precisions, both with identical Allparts maple necks, both with Fender "Original" replacement pickups with identical pots, wiring and capacitors, both with identical gotoh 201 bridges, both with identical Fender round wounds on of the same age and amount of usage/wear. One has an Alder Fender repacement MIM body, the other a Red Meranti body. Both are set up exactly the same in relation to action and pickup height. But oddly they DON'T sound identical. The Meranti bodied one sounds a lot brighter and more resonant than the Alder body. If it was just me picking this up I'd say it was imagination, but it has been commented on by my Guitarist many times.
[/quote]

Are the bodies both made out of a single piece of wood or are there joins? If so are the joins the same number and in the same place on each body?

The necks won't be identical. Every piece of wood is different. Have you tried swapping the necks? Did that make any difference to the sound of each bass?

[Nibody]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1401287550' post='2462064']
Are the bodies both made out of a single piece of wood or are there joins? If so are the joins the same number and in the same place on each body?

The necks won't be identical. Every piece of wood is different. Have you tried swapping the necks? Did that make any difference to the sound of each bass?
[/quote]

Oddly enough I was considering swapping the necks over to see. One has 70's style large baseplate tuners, the other has reverse wind style ones. It seems odd that there is a noticeable difference. I think its a combination of factors, but the wood plays a part in it

[yann]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1400850898' post='2457533']
All the wood has to do is remain stable and keeps the important parts in the right places. I don't believe it makes any difference to the sound at all, Strings, pick ups, bridge and technique do, though.
[/quote]
[quote name='bengreen49' timestamp='1400858381' post='2457667']
you are correct.
[/quote]
Sorry,you're both (and all others who support this) wrong...
There are so many practical examples around that appear daily since the making of the very first electric instrument!
(The question: "Does wood affect electric sound" is been answered since the 60s,i don't see the reason it's still discussed... ...)
[quote name='Nibody' timestamp='1401284462' post='2462021']
I disagree. I have two parts built Precisions, both with identical Allparts maple necks, both with Fender "Original" replacement pickups with identical pots, wiring and capacitors, both with identical gotoh 201 bridges, both with identical Fender round wounds on of the same age and amount of usage/wear. One has an Alder Fender repacement MIM body, the other a Red Meranti body. Both are set up exactly the same in relation to action and pickup height. But oddly they DON'T sound identical. The Meranti bodied one sounds a lot brighter and more resonant than the Alder body. If it was just me picking this up I'd say it was imagination, but it has been commented on by my Guitarist many times.
[/quote]
+1 ...
And that's only a "general" example....

[Nibody]

http://www.frudua.com/sound_of_electric_guitar_wood.htm Interesting reading

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1401347364' post='2462579']
Sorry,you're both (and all others who support this) wrong...
There are so many practical examples around that appear daily since the making of the very first electric instrument!
(The question: "Does wood affect electric sound" is been answered since the 60s,i don't see the reason it's still discussed... ...)
[/quote]
Not a convincing argument.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1401347364' post='2462579']
Sorry,you're both (and all others who support this) wrong...
There are so many practical examples around that appear daily since the making of the very first electric instrument!
(The question: "Does wood affect electric sound" is been answered since the 60s,i don't see the reason it's still discussed... ...)
[/quote]

Since every single piece of wood is different there is no way that anyone can conclusively prove how wood affects the sound of an instrument. I'm quite happy to accept any piece of wood provided that it has the required structural integrity to do the job and if it is visible on the finished instrument has an appearance that I find pleasing. That is all.

[yann]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1401355770' post='2462678']
Not a convincing argument.
[/quote]
Not an argument...and for sure not to be convincing...
It's just the proven truth through the years and the history of electric instruments!
-What i see (and i don't like) about "non believers" (that wood matters in electric sound) is just poor klowledge or experience,
and disrespect to BIG luthiers,sound engineers,pu manufacturers,and even players,who do have the proven ears,experience,knowledge,
and proven work results...
[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1401357792' post='2462719']
Since every single piece of wood is different there is no way that anyone can conclusively prove how wood affects the sound of an instrument.
[/quote]
There's a Greek word that explains it: "Anadrasis". I can only translate this as "interaction" or something...

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1401364215' post='2462809']
... wood matters in electric sound ...
[/quote]
You need to start with a full clarification of what that phrase, that claim, actually means.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='yann' timestamp='1401364215' post='2462809']
There's a Greek word that explains it: "Anadrasis". I can only translate this as "interaction" or something...
[/quote]
[i]Anadrasis[/i] = running back so feeding back and so interaction? Does that sound correct?

I've no dispute, I think like most non-believers as you call us, that a different piece of wood might at least in principle sound different from some other piece of wood; and might also sound different from perspex or aluminium or whatever material, even hollow wood rather than solid wood.

Nor any issue with the idea that there might be some interaction, some feedback between wood and the rest of an electric instrument.

What I and I'm sure others remain unconvinced by is the idea that a particular species of wood can be established as a so-called tonewood.

Even insofar as a particular species of wood might be generally or commonly be associated with a point on some continuum between 'bright' and 'dark' (or some other difficultly measurable aesthetic judgement), any particular sample of that species might or might not display the characteristics commonly associated with said species.

But anyway, even if we allow that some individual pieces of wood might be tonally different to other individual pieces of wood - which I think few people would strongly deny - there is a long list of factors which will have much greater influence over tone than will the wood: strings, foam or whatever under the strings, pickups, fingers, plectrum, where your hand is when you hit the strings, the manner in which you hit the strings, scale length, setup of neck and bridge, EQ on the bass, effects pedals, amplification, speakers, interaction (that's [i]anadrasis[/i]) with the rest of the band and the room, etc. etc. ....

... and of course that's how this thread got started:

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1263247258' post='709467']
I think this is the right forum for this one...

I've always thought that the wood(s) used to make a bass (or guitar for that matter) are a critical element in determining how it will sound, and that time spent selecting the woods for a high-end instrument build is time well spent as it provides a 'uniqueness' to the sound. However I recently had a fascinating conversation with a respected specialist builder on another forum, to the effect that whilst high quality woods are an important element in producing a high quality instrument, the actual choice of wood is less of a factor in determining the specifics of the sound than I had supposed, and that other factors such as pickup/preamp choice, string choice and setup are at least as important (if not more so).

The implications of this are fairly substantial IMHO, because if true it means that in selecting tonewoods a customer is exerting less influence on how the instrument will sound (and probably more on how it looks) than he/she might believe.

I'm aware that I may be stirring a bit of a hornet's nest in asking this, but I'm considering having a bass built for me (although the same basic considerations would surely apply to off-the-shelf instruments) and I really would like to know what people think.
[/quote]

[yann]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1401372040' post='2462911']
[i]Anadrasis[/i] = running back so feeding back and so interaction? Does that sound correct?

I've no dispute, I think like most non-believers as you call us, that a different piece of wood might at least in principle sound different from some other piece of wood; and might also sound different from perspex or aluminium or whatever material, even hollow wood rather than solid wood.
[/quote]

-Hmm...allmost...even my Greeks don't really understand the meaning of this word.
Most people just call it "feedback",but feedback is the act,not the cause! I think "interaction" is closer to the meaning...
With simple words described,the string's vibration runs through the hardware and vibes the woods as we all (i think) agree.
Woods or hardware don't sound of course,they just react,and this is the reason for missing frequences-different sound- with old to new strings,
on any acoustic or electric,"dry" or plugged.But the amount of this affection depends on the sound loudness level too.
It's not the same like playing in the bedroom or a small practice room and on a big stage where everything around vibes like earthquake plus the air's vibrations.
The same instrument will sound very different from one situation to the other. That's how pu's are affected from woods and hardware,
what comes through the mounting screws is enough to alter the "pu sound" with the "wood's sound".
-That "gain" knob on the amp,affects the whole thing dramatically too...
-It's known to older players: With high sound levels and high gain,if we talk (well,yell maybe) to a (mostly vintage-not waxed or badly waxed) pu,
this will be heard from the amp too!

-"Βelievers" : wood does matter. -"Non believers" : wood doesn't matter!
-Yes,the truth is that every single piece of wood has its own reaction to what we generally call "sound".
And of course other materials give generally other sounding result,hollow wood-solid wood too.That's allready well known.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1401372040' post='2462911']
Nor any issue with the idea that there might be some interaction, some feedback between wood and the rest of an electric instrument.[/quote]
As i wrote above,it's eather some or a lot of...
-There's two ways about this: Try to avoid interaction (the Fender way) or make it a part of the sound (the Gibson way).
(I mention those two as the first to study this,most known and most selling in the music industrie.)

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1401372040' post='2462911'] What I and I'm sure others remain unconvinced by is the idea that a particular species of wood can be established as a so-called tonewood. Even insofar as a particular species of wood might be generally or commonly be associated with a point on some continuum between 'bright' and 'dark' (or some other difficultly measurable aesthetic judgement), any particular sample of that species might or might not display the characteristics commonly associated with said species. [/quote]

The word "Tonewoods" is very general,and has a very misunderstood meaning.
The mass industrie is to blame therefor,and this is the reason why identical instruments sound good or don't sound at all.
It's said that every piece has it's own sound reaction,and this might be from "full range" or "bright" or "mudy dark" or just dead...
So,not all "tonewoods" are good enough to become parts of seriously made instruments,that's up to the selector to choose wich ones to use
and wich can be wich part of an instrument,or just throw to the flammes.
It's not just the sound properties that make a wood to be "tonewood",but the mechanical too:
Why should i use a fine responding to "all" frequences maple for a neck while it shows it's not strong enough for use in length?
Well,"Tonewoods" is a word for just a general wood species identification and shows mostly wich species COULD be used for instruments,
not because of sound properties,but mechanical too,and not that theese species can be used for sure.
It's not the species that make wood to be tonewood,it's mostly the maturation ways....
The best fresh cut wood could "die" in the way to become a tonewood,just like wine does...

Edited May 29, 2014 by yann

[yann]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1401372040' post='2462911']


But anyway, even if we allow that some individual pieces of wood might be tonally different to other individual pieces of wood - which I think few people would strongly deny - there is a long list of factors which will have much greater influence over tone than will the wood: strings, foam or whatever under the strings, pickups, fingers, plectrum, where your hand is when you hit the strings, the manner in which you hit the strings, scale length, setup of neck and bridge, EQ on the bass, effects pedals, amplification, speakers, interaction (that's [i]anadrasis[/i]) with the rest of the band and the room, etc. etc. ....
[/quote]

Just let those people deny...
When talking about the sound of an instrument,what we really mean is the "character" of it...
And when talking about electrics,it's the instrument's "dry" sound to critisize first,then through a good and well known amp,
and then anything else.

[kurosawa]

There is a tutti in Rob McConnell's "Louisiana" that challenged me. It took a month for me to precisely match the horns' phrasing, dynamics, and articulation. The experience completely changed my ideas of what a fretted electric bass can and should do. It also changed what I listen for in an instrument.

Different experiences mean we listen for different things. If you don't play your bass like a horn, then it's not going to bother you if a certain bass has problems doing that particular trick, even if it drives me nuts (I don't care if a bass is totally unslappable, which might have you tearing out your hair).

There is nothing to prove here. There are profitable interactions with players who are going in the same direction as we, and if we don't connect with players who are going in other directions, that's just the way it is.

[FinnDave]

I remain unconvinced. Applying arguments applicable to acoustic instruments when discussing instruments whose sound is produced by purely electronic amplifiction (as opposed to micing up an acoustic instrument) is a red herring.

This is, of course, my personal opinion, based on 40 years of playing (almost exclusively Fender or Fender copy) electric basses. I know plenty of other experienced musicians who hold the same opinion, but in the end, if we are happy with the sound we get, what does it matter? Good wood often looks nice, and that influences our playing as well.

[kurosawa]

No one's trying to convince you, except to convince you that no one's trying to convince you. However it does seem you're trying to squelch the line of inquiry, Can't fathom why. Been playing since 1967. Got my first Fender 2 years later, a '63 P in LPB.

Edited May 30, 2014 by kurosawa

[CHRISDABASS]

Hey all

I may have mentioned this before but i'd like to welcome any of you to come and try out a couple of our basses that share identical construction, hardware, fret wire, pickups
(From the same batch, made at the same time, so as close as possible to identical) , preamp, nut, strings etc and only differ in wood spec.

The first bass spec is:

Alder body
Maple top
Indian rosewood neck
Madagascan rosewood fingerboard


The second bass spec is:

Swamp ash body
Ebony top
One piece ebony neck
Ebony fingerboard

The difference is very noticable before you even plug them in. For me this shows the affect that different woods have.

It would be an interesting experiment having a few of you try them to see what you think

[FinnDave]

I wouldn't mind taking you up on that, if I find myself in your part of the country I'll be in touch. And I am quite prepared to accept that 'The difference is very noticeable before you even plug them in.' but I find it harder to see how that affects the tone when relying solely on pickups and amplification for the sound.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='kurosawa' timestamp='1401446252' post='2463661']
No one's trying to convince you, except to convince you that no one's trying to convince you. However it does seem you're trying to squelch the line of inquiry, Can't fathom why. Been playing since 1967. Got my first Fender 2 years later, a '63 P in LPB.
[/quote]

Not trying to squelch anything, simply stating my personal opinion, and it may that 'I remain unconvinced' has lost some of its meaning while crossing the Atlantic. To me it is simply a politer way of say 'I do not think this is true'.