Tonewoods

[henry norton]

What a fantastic, long and argumentative thread! It goes to show how little we all [i]really[/i] understand about our chosen instrument!

Have you decided on woods for your custom build yet Lefty....?

....or are you gibbering in the corner after finally being driven insane by all the conflicting advice?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='729646' date='Jan 30 2010, 01:32 PM']Don't think that's quite right. First of all, pickups don't just amplify what's there. In fact standard guitar pickups are inherently non-linear, and definitely add their own character to the mix. Secondly, the strings are vibrating in a magnetic field, which affects how they vibrate. The electromagnetics is a little above my pay grade - any electronics engineers out there? - but it definitely happens.

[url="http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys199pom/Labs/Electric_Guitar_Pickup_Measurements.pdf"]Measuring pickup characteristics[/url]

[url="http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys498pom/498emi_guitar_pickup_results.html"]Results of the above analysis[/url][/quote]

I didn't say it was linear amplification. But the string produces the harmonics - if it didn't then moving up and down the fret board wouldn't do much! I'm not arguing that pickups don't contribute to tone, they clearly do. But If you imagine a hypothetical 'flat' pickup, then could you not get a fairly reasonable rough approximation of a particular pickup's tone with EQ alone? What I was trying to say was that the way the string output across the different harmonics decays over time will be dominated by its interaction with the body/neck/bridge etc. Point taken regarding being in a magnetic field. But I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that this doesn't have nearly as significant affect on the note decay as the mechanical factors in the body unless the pickup is too close to the string (when you get that 'sucking' effect. Also this factor would be a constant whether the bass is played plugged in or otherwise.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='729741' date='Jan 30 2010, 03:07 PM']I didn't say it was linear amplification. But the string produces the harmonics - if it didn't then moving up and down the fret board wouldn't do much! I'm not arguing that pickups don't contribute to tone, they clearly do. But If you imagine a hypothetical 'flat' pickup, then could you not get a fairly reasonable rough approximation of a particular pickup's tone with EQ alone? What I was trying to say was that the way the string output across the different harmonics decays over time will be dominated by its interaction with the body/neck/bridge etc. Point taken regarding being in a magnetic field. But I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that this doesn't have nearly as significant affect on the note decay as the mechanical factors in the body unless the pickup is too close to the string (when you get that 'sucking' effect. Also this factor would be a constant whether the bass is played plugged in or otherwise.[/quote]

It's clearly a very complex relationship between the various factors, all of which appear to be contributing to the final result. The question I asked in the OP was geared towards trying to get a definitive answer to the question of the contribution made by the (usually very expensive) tonewood to the overall result. Clearly it has some, but then again so do the pickups, the neck, the electronics.....

I think the answer to my question is that there isn't an easy answer! However, it has made me wonder whether the money I might otherwise have paid for an exotic piece of wood might not be more effectively spent somewhere else on the instrument. I have enjoyed the discussion thus far though - plenty to mull over when the time comes

Edited January 30, 2010 by leftybassman392

[Gwilym]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='728095' date='Jan 28 2010, 08:47 PM']I'm sure VGS can speak for himself, but I've got a feeling that's not really what he means. The various components used in preamp circuits are made within certain tolerences, which means that different examples of the same circuit can vary slightly in their 'sound'. This makes it hard to call them identical to the point that you can eliminate them as a factor.

Not saying you're wrong about the sound of your basses - just that it isn't quite as simple as it looks. And with great respect, I'm still not so sure about the 'acoustic tone translating to amplified sound' argument.[/quote]

i think that, in your own words, the same circuit in the same bass might "vary slightly".

All I'm saying is that in my experience with my two basses, the tone between the two differ to an extent that I can only reasonably attribute that difference to the different woods used in the construction, rather than any slight dfferences due hardware and electronics, which are identical.
Of course this is not a controlled scientific experiment, nevertheless it's my contention that tonewoods do have an effect on the sound of an instrument. Whether or not this effect is to a greater or lesser extent than the effect of electronics and pickups, I don't know, but it certainly makes a difference.

[henry norton]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='730052' date='Jan 30 2010, 08:53 PM']i think that, in your own words, the same circuit in the same bass might "vary slightly".

All I'm saying is that in my experience with my two basses, the tone between the two differ to an extent that I can only reasonably attribute that difference to the different woods used in the construction, rather than any slight dfferences due hardware and electronics, which are identical.
Of course this is not a controlled scientific experiment, nevertheless it's my contention that tonewoods do have an effect on the sound of an instrument. Whether or not this effect is to a greater or lesser extent than the effect of electronics and pickups, I don't know, but it certainly makes a difference.[/quote]
It's all about degrees though - I don't think anyone who's posted on this thread would deny wood choice wouldn't make some difference but to quote an earlier post; take two Precisions, one with an ash body and maple board, one with an alder body and rosewood board - the difference in sound would probably be quite marked played back to back but they would still sound like a couple of Fender Precisions. You couldn't say that if you back to backed an ash/maple Precision with an ash/maple Jazz.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='727461' date='Jan 28 2010, 04:11 AM']Don't luthiers tap wood to check for defects? A flawless piece of wood will have a strong resonance, whereas internal and/or invisible cracks will inhibit the resonance. Same principle as you use with porcelain. In fact isn't it the quality of the wood stock that you pay for (at least in part)?[/quote]
As a bass builder and NAMM member since the late '80's I can't remember a luthier tapping lumber looking for defects. I'm sure there are some that do but tapping for defects should not be extrapolated into the often told tale of tapping for better tone. Small cracks won't change the tone and big ones are clearly visible. Most of the wood in a board becomes scrap and isn't in the final product any ways.

The only legit use of tapping wood, in my opinion of course, is in determining when to stop carving a softwood top used on a viol family instrument. A crack has to be huge and rather visible to be heard IME. Something to keep in mind is that some of the most expensive basses in the world (Fodera) use top woods that are riddled with cracks and rot and filled with crazy glue. If we applied these wood myths consistently Fodera would be making some rather lame sounding basses. Ironically those that favor the aged wood stories found in the vintage world claim the better tone comes from the wood breaking down allow it to resonate more freely (don't all great wood theories increase resonance?} causing reanimation and respiration in the instrument. The 2 ideals seem contradictory

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='728095' date='Jan 28 2010, 12:47 PM']I'm sure VGS can speak for himself, but I've got a feeling that's not really what he means. The various components used in preamp circuits are made within certain tolerences, which means that different examples of the same circuit can vary slightly in their 'sound'. This makes it hard to call them identical to the point that you can eliminate them as a factor.[/quote]Yeah! What he said

It's true, look at the Wal bass circuit for example since it's not encased in epoxy and uses full size components. You will see many parts rated + or - 5% or greater. That's a swing of 10% which in a single capacitor can change frequency range by nearly a half step. We only think electronics are identical because we can't see a difference without learning how to read resistor stripes and stuff like that. If you get into boutique effects building you will see builders who measure all their parts to pick the ones that are within their specs and to match them to the other parts. No mass produced preamps do that as it's very expensive.

Vintage pickups are famous for varying greatly from one example to another and strings also vary from set to set.

So the assumption of "identical" doesn't hold up and can easily be demonstrated false by popping down to the latest Fender dealer and find 2 "identical" guitars and see if an audiophile will say they can't hear the difference between 2 things with the same woods and specs.

Funny how guitars can vary so much but a McDonalds cheeseburger on the other side of the world tastes the same

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='729596' date='Jan 30 2010, 04:37 AM']It strikes me as a bit weird to imagine that an obvious difference acoustically in one particular case is not largely responsible for the obvious difference plugged[/quote]
I would agree that it suggests it could be responsible but I would not assume it is. The example of graphite guitars works here. An original Stenberger sounds like poo in a pillow unplugged but plugged in it's very aggressive and upfront. To my ears the 2 tones are unrelated. Once I know it's the same instrument my brain will present all the similarities to me while dismissing all the differences but my brain lies to me, often

A P bass and a J bass cannot be differentiated from one another based on the acoustic tone, unless you can see them but they sounds worlds apart plugged in. This example alone should kill the acoustic tone theory for all but the faithful.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='729741' date='Jan 30 2010, 07:07 AM']I didn't say it was linear amplification. But the string produces the harmonics - if it didn't then moving up and down the fret board wouldn't do much! I'm not arguing that pickups don't contribute to tone, they clearly do. But If you imagine a hypothetical 'flat' pickup, then could you not get a fairly reasonable rough approximation of a particular pickup's tone with EQ alone? What I was trying to say was that the way the string output across the different harmonics decays over time will be dominated by its interaction with the body/neck/bridge etc. Point taken regarding being in a magnetic field. But I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that this doesn't have nearly as significant affect on the note decay as the mechanical factors in the body unless the pickup is too close to the string (when you get that 'sucking' effect. Also this factor would be a constant whether the bass is played plugged in or otherwise.[/quote]
I do think wood is part of the equation, however were I tend to differ with most is that I don't think we can make any more than the most gross predictions based on woods. The infinitely slim promises we get from some builders strikes me as quite dishonest or at best severely delusional.

However it is an easy thing to test and from all the proper or close to proper tests I've seen no one can identify a wood species or genus by listening to an instrument either acoustically or electrically. There isn't a single claim about a particular woods tone by an expert luthier that can't be countered with another experts contradictory claim.

As for body having an effect on tone try this. Strap on your favorite bass and let it hang from your strap so it doesn't touch your belly and don't rest your arm on it. Hit a note and let it ring. Now let it rest on your belly and drape your forearm over the top basically adding a huge flesh mute to front and back of your bass, hit that same note again. What do you hear?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='730052' date='Jan 30 2010, 11:53 AM']i think that, in your own words, the same circuit in the same bass might "vary slightly".

All I'm saying is that in my experience with my two basses, the tone between the two differ to an extent that I can only reasonably attribute that difference to the different woods used in the construction, rather than any slight dfferences due hardware and electronics, which are identical.
Of course this is not a controlled scientific experiment, nevertheless it's my contention that tonewoods do have an effect on the sound of an instrument. Whether or not this effect is to a greater or lesser extent than the effect of electronics and pickups, I don't know, but it certainly makes a difference.[/quote]
I don't disagree you hear a difference but I don't think wood is the only reasonable way to explain the difference. If you look into psychoacoustics a little bit you will see there are many other factors that could explain the difference.

It is very easy to play one bass in a way people think it is more than one instrument being used. I can get a large variation in tone from just one bass, easily enough to outweigh any claims for the wood.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='730250' date='Jan 31 2010, 01:41 AM']I do think wood is part of the equation, however were I tend to differ with most is that I don't think we can make any more than the most gross predictions based on woods. The infinitely slim promises we get from some builders strikes me as quite dishonest or at best severely delusional.[/quote]

I don't differ on this much. Two different issues seem to have been confused. One is whether wood contributes significantly to tone. It does. The second is whether that contribution correlates with wood species. Several people seem to be arguing that it doesn't, because you can't reliably identify the species by sound, using this as a gold standard test. This is missing the point that there could be a correlation, but significant variability within species may exist and consequently lots of tonal 'overlap' between. I.e. it may be possible to make a bass of ash and a bass of alder that sounded pretty much the same. But the 'average' tone of alder versus ash basses of the same type would differ. This is what I think is going on. Further complicating things is that ash is probably pretty similar in tone to alder anyway. I think mahogany versus maple is a better example as they are more extremely different and therefore there's less overlap.

And I agree entirely that exotic woods aren't going to give you much you couldn't get from the standard materials.

One final thing I find interesting is that changing pickup position makes a big difference to tone, but within certain parameters (ie my bass sounds like my bass wherever the pickup is despite the fact there is a big difference between neck and bridge). Similarly pickup type makes a big difference within different varying parameters. Ditto strings. Each varied component has a drastic difference but the difference is confined to a particular element of the sound. I think someone who is pretty experienced with this sort of thing would be able to listen to an instrument and work out what component needed to change to best give a desired tone, or if it's even possible.

[Kiwi]

[url="http://www.theguitarsherpa.com/categories/tonewood-sound-characteristics.html"]http://www.theguitarsherpa.com/categories/...cteristics.html[/url]

Just found this link library on tonewoods. I'll pin this topic too, given it pops up regularly enough.

[Vibrating G String]

While those links may appear authoritative there's no science in there. If they were accurate they would be specific and consistent. All those link writers make a profit based on tonewood "lore", just something to keep in mind while reading them

[jazzyvee]

I think the choice of woods in an instrument must make a difference to the tone and impart it's character to it. Whether you can hear that or benefit from that is probably a lot to do with the pickups on the guitar and whether the manufacturer has voiced them or not.

Many of the pickups used on basses and guitars for that matter are "Voiced" to give a particular type of sound. Many manufacturers use these pickups rather than develop their own which I think is why, a lot of basses just sound like either fender clones or super fenders.( Not that that is a bad sound). The vast number and variety of after market pickups just make this point even more.I think the type of wood used on these basses would have less impact on the sound since the primary voice is coming from the pickups.

I think if the pickups are non-voiced and are designed just to reproduce the signal from the vibrating string in front of them, then you will be able to benefit sonically from using different woods in the instrument construction since the woods will impart their character on the vibrating string which will be picked up and amplified uncoloured.

If I play my basses unplugged they have one sound, when plugged in they sound the same just louder.

Jazzyvee

[Vibrating G String]

Hmmm, seems like that last line contradicts what's above it. If the pickup is responsible for so much of the sound (which I subscribe too) then a bass wouldn't sound the same un amplified as it would amplified as a major part of the tone wouldn't influence the un amplified sound.

What are some examples of voiced and non voiced pickups? I'm not sure what you mean here.

[Davo-London]

This debate turns up from time to time. Luthiers, and my custom bass luthier, would presumably argue that there is a difference. But rather than sticking to just wood, the customer would be better suggesting the type of sound they are after and what they currently like. An experienced luthier would then not only suggest a suitable tone and neck woods but also PUs pres and hardware that would compliment the tone.

So I would say it has be taken in context of the complete build.

I personally prefer the sound AND feel of rosewood necks over maple. That's based on playing maybe a 100 basses. That's not for anyone else to critique or agree with, that's the conclusion that I have come to. Similarly, if I want a Jaco tone then I'm better off buying a signature Jaco Jazz, because that's the only bass I have ever got that tone from.

I agree that wood affects tone. But overall the bass tone has to consider the whole build.


Davo

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Davo-London' post='903066' date='Jul 23 2010, 04:20 AM']Similarly, if I want a Jaco tone then I'm better off buying a signature Jaco Jazz, because that's the only bass I have ever got that tone from.[/quote]
I watched Jaco get it from a Jaydee right after he complained about not liking the tone of a Jaco fans clone bass.

[Kiwi]

Useless fact: Jaco was on the verge of securing a Jaydee endorsement just before he died.

[Davo-London]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about Jaco getting Jaco's tone from a bass. I was talking about ME getting the Jaco tone. Different thing, i.e. I ain't Jaco.

Davo

[Mikey R]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='730236' date='Jan 31 2010, 02:22 AM']Funny how guitars can vary so much but a McDonalds cheeseburger on the other side of the world tastes the same [/quote]

If we made basses from MDF then I reckon they would all sound the same, and taste as good as a McDonalds whereever you ate it...

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='903727' date='Jul 23 2010, 07:08 PM']Useless fact: Jaco was on the verge of securing a Jaydee endorsement just before he died.[/quote]
Was he going to dump Guild & Hartke?

[markdavid]

[quote name='Mikey R' post='903836' date='Jul 24 2010, 10:40 AM']If we made basses from MDF then I reckon they would all sound the same, and taste as good as a McDonalds whereever you ate it...[/quote]
lol

[TheGreek]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='709691' date='Jan 12 2010, 08:51 AM']The tone also comes from your fingers. I've tried using cadburys chocolate fingers & birds eye fish fingers, but found that my original ones sound best in an A/B comparison.[/quote]
like your sense of humour!!!

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='902767' date='Jul 23 2010, 07:01 AM']Hmmm, seems like that last line contradicts what's above it. If the pickup is responsible for so much of the sound (which I subscribe too) then a bass wouldn't sound the same un amplified as it would amplified as a major part of the tone wouldn't influence the un amplified sound.

What are some examples of voiced and non voiced pickups? I'm not sure what you mean here.[/quote]

Edited September 21, 2010 by jazzyvee

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='902767' date='Jul 23 2010, 07:01 AM']Hmmm, seems like that last line contradicts what's above it. If the pickup is responsible for so much of the sound (which I subscribe too) then a bass wouldn't sound the same un amplified as it would amplified as a major part of the tone wouldn't influence the un amplified sound.

What are some examples of voiced and non voiced pickups? I'm not sure what you mean here.[/quote]

Not at all, non voiced means means that the pickups are designed to produce a signal from the vibrating string that is in turn influenced by the wood it is secured to via the hardware, without the pickups colouring the signal themselves. If a pickup is voiced have a particular sound then i think that would have a greater influence on the tone of the instrument and could hide the subtle differences that may be obtained by careful wood selection. The pickups on my bass are low impedance Alembic pickups.

Jazzyvee