Tonewoods

[Vibrating G String]

Sounds like non specific marketing. Can you tell me an example of a voiced and non voiced pickup?

[Kiwi]

All pickups are voiced to some degree. They have a frequency peak that is dependent on a number of factors including resistance and voltage. The magnets used will also affect the sound of the pickup, ceramic magnets tend to sound brighter than alnico.

Even Alembic pickups have a voicing but their peaks are too low to influence the sound of the bass significantly however they sounded brighter than other basses when first introduced because they used ceramic magnets. There are many other manufacturers who do the same thing these days. I have a custom set of Wizards on my Spectors that follow similar principles.

[Vibrating G String]

So there are no non voiced pickups and ceramic magnets are brighter? How does the composition of the material holding the magnetic field influence the frequency response?

Alembics peaks are below audible bass tones? Where are these peaks? Do you know Alembic used to advertise all their tone was the voicing of the pickups and wood was irrelevant?

[jazzyvee]

Here is an article about pickups which is on the Alembic forum. It may help understanding of pickups.
[url="http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16350.html?1107707912"]http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16350.html?1107707912[/url]
Jazzyvee

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='965192' date='Sep 23 2010, 03:19 AM']So there are no non voiced pickups and ceramic magnets are brighter? How does the composition of the material holding the magnetic field influence the frequency response?

Alembics peaks are below audible bass tones? Where are these peaks? Do you know Alembic used to advertise all their tone was the voicing of the pickups and wood was irrelevant?[/quote]

Just like speakers, the magnet material isn't the bit changing the tone. Ceramics are brighter (if they are) because the stronger magnet needs less windings for the same output, less windings is brighter, I think because there is a capacitance to long lengths of wire that rolls off some treble. Alembic pickups are very low output, as they have very few windings, and are correspondingly not very coloured by the amount of windings, the level is brought up by the preamp, similar to EMGS. The Alembic I've tried, into a fancy am was very transparent, the sound from the amp was very similar you the sound from putting your ear against the body.

[LawrenceH]

Going back to tonewoods, apologies if this has been posted before but I was bored and found the patent for the Yamaha ARE technology which according to their marketing mimics wood ageing and improves the acoustic properties. I thought it might be of relevance to this topic:
[url="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6667429.PN.&OS=PN/6667429&RS=PN/6667429"]http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/6667429[/url]

Basically a high-pressure steam treatment.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jazzyvee' post='965593' date='Sep 23 2010, 05:51 AM']Here is an article about pickups which is on the Alembic forum. It may help understanding of pickups.
[url="http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16350.html?1107707912"]http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16350.html?1107707912[/url]
Jazzyvee[/quote]
This says the resonant peaks of Alembic pickups are very high. A direct contradiction to the previous claim in this thread. There's always an expert who says the opposite of any other expert when it comes to the magic of tone posturing. I believe this is related to the complete lack of science used in creating these conclusions.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='965704' date='Sep 23 2010, 07:33 AM']Just like speakers, the magnet material isn't the bit changing the tone.[/quote]Correct. Bartolinis are usually ceramic and are noted (incorrectly in my opinion) for being dark by many experts.
[quote]Ceramics are brighter (if they are) because the stronger magnet needs less windings for the same output, less windings is brighter, I think because there is a capacitance to long lengths of wire that rolls off some treble.[/quote]
Actually neodymiums are the strong pickup magnets. Are they super bright?

Coil winding is unrelated to the material the magnet is made of. Any difference in magnetic field strength between materials can be compensated for by simply changing the mass of the magnet.[quote]Alembic pickups are very low output, as they have very few windings, and are correspondingly not very coloured by the amount of windings, the level is brought up by the preamp, similar to EMGS. The Alembic I've tried, into a fancy am was very transparent, the sound from the amp was very similar you the sound from putting your ear against the body.[/quote]No 2 pickup instrument has a pickup that sounds like the un amplified instrument. This can be suggested with simple logic. The 2 pickups sounds different from each other and therefore only one at best can be a close match to the un amplified tone. Most Alembics have at least 2 pickups. Is it the neck or the bridge that sounds just like the acoustic tone?

Dismissing things like where you press your ear to the body, how the instrument is held and any tonality imparted by the amp and cabinets as having any bearing on the tone is troublesome.

[Vibrating G String]

For any one who only gets their tone "science" directly or indirectly from advertisers a quick look into this page may be helpful, and could save a lot of money.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics[/url]

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='967323' date='Sep 25 2010, 08:57 AM']Actually neodymiums are the strong pickup magnets. Are they super bright?[/quote]

Out of the alnico and ceramic choices you have in conventional pickups, ceramic is the stronger. The only neodymium pickups I know of are far from conventional.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='967323' date='Sep 25 2010, 08:57 AM']Coil winding is unrelated to the material the magnet is made of. Any difference in magnetic field strength between materials can be compensated for by simply changing the mass of the magnet.[/quote]

Pickups require an output level within a certain range, and are limited in size by a standardised form factor. Thus The output must be maintained through magnet strength or winding length. Alnico magnets were the only thing available when the size was established, and the output levels were correspondingly established at this point. So increasing the mass of the magnet using alnico would take it outside the size limit established. This limitation was removed by the advent of ceramic magnets and thus very hot pickups became practical, and there was space to work with regarding coil length.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='967323' date='Sep 25 2010, 08:57 AM']No 2 pickup instrument has a pickup that sounds like the un amplified instrument. This can be suggested with simple logic. The 2 pickups sounds different from each other and therefore only one at best can be a close match to the un amplified tone. Most Alembics have at least 2 pickups. Is it the neck or the bridge that sounds just like the acoustic tone?

Dismissing things like where you press your ear to the body, how the instrument is held and any tonality imparted by the amp and cabinets as having any bearing on the tone is troublesome.[/quote]

Neither sounds "just like", it sounds "very similar". I'd guess it would have been the neck pickup, I generally favour that.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='971135' date='Sep 28 2010, 12:42 PM']Out of the alnico and ceramic choices you have in conventional pickups, ceramic is the stronger. The only neodymium pickups I know of are far from conventional.[/quote]But are they super bright?

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='971135' date='Sep 28 2010, 12:42 PM']Pickups require an output level within a certain range, and are limited in size by a standardised form factor. Thus The output must be maintained through magnet strength or winding length. Alnico magnets were the only thing available when the size was established, and the output levels were correspondingly established at this point. So increasing the mass of the magnet using alnico would take it outside the size limit established. This limitation was removed by the advent of ceramic magnets and thus very hot pickups became practical, and there was space to work with regarding coil length.[/quote]
No, just, no For example Fender pickups could have simply increased the diameter of the pole pieces. Alnico was not maxed out. Increasing windings will greatly increase output without increasing the shape of the pickup.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='971135' date='Sep 28 2010, 12:42 PM']Neither sounds "just like", it sounds "very similar". I'd guess it would have been the neck pickup, I generally favour that.[/quote]
So one pickup sounds something like the un amplified tone, the other doesn't. So neither sounds like the un amplified bass.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='979118' date='Oct 6 2010, 09:12 AM']But are they super bright?[/quote]

They are very transparent apparently. I've not tried them, Mr. Claber has them in his bass, [url="http://www.q-tuner.com/"]Q-tuners.[/url] They aren't comparable, because they work in a different fashion to a conventional pickup, and aren't made in a previously established shape.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='979118' date='Oct 6 2010, 09:12 AM']No, just, no For example Fender pickups could have simply increased the diameter of the pole pieces. Alnico was not maxed out. Increasing windings will greatly increase output without increasing the shape of the pickup.[/quote]

Increasing the diameter of pole pieces correspondingly reduces the amount of space for a coil to go round it. And increasing windings will result in a darker tone as the capacitance increases. Alnico magnets also improved steadily, but corresponding ceramic ones are stronger and more stable.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='979118' date='Oct 6 2010, 09:12 AM']So one pickup sounds something like the un amplified tone, the other doesn't. So neither sounds like the un amplified bass.[/quote]

I don't really know how you can say an output from a pickup doesn't sound like a bass. Plugged or unplugged, my bass sounds like a bass. I'd be very upset if I plugged in my new pickups and it sounded like a kazoo.

[Vibrating G String]

I get the feeling you don't really read all the words before posting

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='980136' date='Oct 7 2010, 03:19 AM']I get the feeling you don't really read all the words before posting [/quote]

I don't work off feelings. Observation and research to explain it. That's why there are quotes associated with my rebuttals.

You have read this:

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='965704' date='Sep 23 2010, 03:33 PM']Just like speakers, the magnet material isn't the bit changing the tone.[/quote]

And then tried to construct an argument against magnet material changing the tone, as is apparent from quotes such as this:

[quote]Actually neodymiums are the strong pickup magnets. Are they super bright?[/quote]

The design parameters of a pickup are dependent on all factors, one of which is magnet material and the associated properties. Other factors are adjusted in order to achieve the design goals, which for the purpose of a bass pickup are in a very limited bands of size, output and response with additional cost considerations (where ceramic wins hugely). The significant advantages of ceramic magnets means there is far greater scope for adjusting these design parameters, as they are stronger and more stable. The main influence on the brighntess/voicing/response of a pickup itself is the nature of the coil, but to achieve the required output within the required size, other design elements have to be adjusted. These factors are all related, definitely not 'unrelated' as you claim.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Mr. Foxen

[umph]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='980136' date='Oct 7 2010, 03:19 AM']I get the feeling you don't really read all the words before posting [/quote]



In answer to your question about neo magnets, i've no experience of them in pick ups but i do know originally people turned their noses up at them in speakers as they tended to be very harsh and toppy.

[paul_5]

In complex matter like this it often helps to delve into the wisdom of the ages, namely one Joe Meek who put it like this: "If it sounds right, it is right". Just play bass, if it works for you, then great, buy it. If not then look elsewhere.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='tarcher' post='716446' date='Jan 18 2010, 11:45 AM']Don't suppose Stradivarius ever used ply [/quote]


Or pickups..I think the type - and quality - of the wood used will make a subtle difference,but by the time it's gone through an amp,some speakers,a dodgy SM57 and a PA to an audience whose interest in audio perfection has been compromised by alcohol,who is going to know?

[paulflan0151]

Hi Guys,

Dont know if this has been covered as I haven't read all the comments but the wood of the bass is a major factor IMO. I'm starting a guitar workshop myself so have done a lot of research into these matters. What I have gathered is that wood, construction and pick-ups/EQ have the main inflence on a basses sound. It's the middle section of the guitar that makes the sound, the edges (horns etc) dont.
Generally speaking softer woods, like mohogany create a softer, deeper tone. Harder woods, maple for example are brighter and have more attack. Ofcourse you can mix the woods to get a bespoke sound.
A good combo of wood is mohog body, maple top, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard. you get body and warmth from the mohogany, attack from the maple. maple is strong for the neck and the rosewood is strong and dureable for the fingerboard. it's also not too bright. Then you gotta pick construction. Bolt is brighter, glue-in is similar but not as bright. then pick-ups etc etc.
Hope this can help.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='paulflan0151' post='1102846' date='Jan 25 2011, 09:53 PM']Then you gotta pick construction. Bolt is brighter, glue-in is similar but not as bright.[/quote]

Fairly sure bolt on is heavily influenced by the nature of the joint, and thus doesn't have it's own sound. You can have a sloppy wood screwed and cardboard shimmed joint (classic Fender tone), or you could have a tight fitting, ferrules and machine screws joint, both would be 'bolt on'. That is one that I have compared, but taking a bass, and fitting ferrules and machine screwing the neck, which made the sustain properties very different. Approaching construction as an engineer rather than a guitarist eliminates all the 'warmth' and other such unspecific terms, it is much more about weight and density affecting resonant filtering, than types of tree giving mojo, by wood species are what sells guitars.

[redstriper]

[quote name='paulflan0151' post='1102846' date='Jan 25 2011, 09:53 PM']Hi Guys,

Dont know if this has been covered as I haven't read all the comments but the wood of the bass is a major factor IMO. I'm starting a guitar workshop myself so have done a lot of research into these matters. What I have gathered is that wood, construction and pick-ups/EQ have the main inflence on a basses sound. It's the middle section of the guitar that makes the sound, the edges (horns etc) dont.
[b]Generally speaking[/b] softer woods, like mohogany create a softer, deeper tone. Harder woods, maple for example are brighter and have more attack. Ofcourse you can mix the woods to get a bespoke sound.
A good combo of wood is mohog body, maple top, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard. you get body and warmth from the mohogany, attack from the maple. maple is strong for the neck and the rosewood is strong and dureable for the fingerboard. it's also not too bright. Then you gotta pick construction. Bolt is brighter, glue-in is similar but not as bright. then pick-ups etc etc.
Hope this can help.[/quote]

Generally speaking is not enough to make me spend dosh on anything.
I have a bass all made from maple - neck, board and body.
It is the deepest, darkest, warmest sounding bass I have ever played - more to do with the strings, frets, electrics and pups than the wood IMO.

[dincz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='979550' date='Oct 6 2010, 04:15 PM']And increasing windings will result in a darker tone as the [b]capacitance[/b] increases.[/quote]

Well yeah but the opposite in fact - inductance

[Vibrating G String]

I'm still waiting for the day that someone who claims they can hear all the differences that supposedly come from wood and construction to be able to discern any of these things from the sound of a bass alone. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion but I've always felt that if you can't tell the difference by listening alone you can't hear the difference.

When wood tones are described based on their physical qualities it really suggests a desperate need to not say I don't know. Dark woods = dark tone, light woods = bright tone, soft woods = soft tone. Except in cases where they don't.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1104047' date='Jan 26 2011, 09:07 AM']Generally speaking is not enough to make me spend dosh on anything.
I have a bass all made from maple - neck, board and body.
It is the deepest, darkest, warmest sounding bass I have ever played[/quote]
Yet another example contradicting the "truth" about wood tones.

Anyone assigning a specific tone rule to maple without mentioning a species shows an ignorance of basic wood knowledge as maple is one of the most varied woods available commercially ranging from heavy and dense to lighter than alder. If you don't know the difference between acer macrophyllum & acer saccharum there's a pretty good chance you can't hear which one sounds fuller and more round & fuzzy with a pink wiggly nose & cute bottom. Or whatever non committal description is being used today.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Vibrating G String

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1104652' date='Jan 27 2011, 02:13 AM']Or whatever non committal description is being used today.[/quote]
"a cheeky little maple with a softly spoken, coquettish charm that flirts with the ear before one realises ones head has been firmly grasped and is being dragged, screaming, into the savage, quaking, thunderous depths of B string territory..."

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dincz' post='1104440' date='Jan 26 2011, 09:51 PM']Well yeah but the opposite in fact - inductance[/quote]

Explain more. As far as I know the inducatance is the thing that generates a voltage that makes a pickup work. Unfortunately they aren't a perfect inductor, so they also have a capacitance (as a component of impedance) which is what attenuates high frequencies. But electronics understanding is a work in progress for me.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Mr. Foxen