Bergantino vs Schroeder Cabs

[chris_b]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='716538' date='Jan 18 2010, 01:14 PM']....I often wonder if the sound of the famous Schroeder mid hump could be achieved by turning the mids up on the amp....[/quote]
Schroeder put their speakers into boxes which are way too small for the specs of the speaker. That is how they loose some bass and gain the mids that make them sound louder and cut through. A lot of people like that, and if it's your sound then they are great, but I don't know why you would want to do that on a "full range" cab!

[Musicman20]

You will find if you want the same volume, eg 2 Berg 112s, as the Shroeder 1212L, you will have to pay a fair bit more. Its upto you on what you can afford I guess.

The 1212L, if you get a well made one, is a very loud small cab! The Bergs are much more polite in their sound, and I dont think ive yet seen bad QC on a Berg.


As always in life, well mostly, you get what you pay for.

Id still like two AE112s...

[51m0n]

[quote name='johnbass57' post='716538' date='Jan 18 2010, 01:14 PM']That happens. Still, its better than recommending stuff you have not seen or heard I often wonder if the sound of the famous Schroeder mid hump could be achieved by turning the mids up on the amp [/quote]

Yes but you may as well just turn down some of the low end, gives the same end result....

[mcgraham]

A topic of discussion came up on TalkBass regarding particular cabs and their characteristics, and someone stated that if you have to eq your amp to get the sound you want (and not because of the room), then you've got the wrong cab. In essence, buy the cab that sounds the way you want it to when set flat (assuming the bass is not the issue of course).

Mark

[Conan]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='716600' date='Jan 18 2010, 02:04 PM']buy the cab that sounds the way you want it to when set flat (assuming the bass is not the issue of course).

Mark[/quote]

Presumably, you mean "when the amp is set flat"? Which assumes, of course, that the amp that you own gives the sound you want! I guess that investing in a high quality cab is quite likely to highlight any inadequacies in your amp and/or guitar?

The old "any chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" analogy?

[mcgraham]

Good point. This is why I practice through a transparent preamp into flat sounding headphones so I can hear the actual sound of my bass. I then have a rig that is designed to have a flat frequency response (DSP and slight compression to contribute towards what is meant to be a true representation of your bass).

For others, they could easily do the headphones to check the sound they are actually getting from the bass (Bass - check!). They could then take headphone out from their amp and check what they're getting from that (Amp + Bass - check). And then they can plug the bass into the amp into the cab and hear the total sum (Cab + Amp + Bass - check).

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='716334' date='Jan 18 2010, 09:04 AM']You hear this quite a lot about Schroeder cabs but it's not true. Usually people assume because they pump out a lot of low-mids that they are lacking in the bass, not so. There's loads of clean bass on tap, plus a ton of mids if you want them

Everyone who has heard/played through my rig comments on the amount of low-end coming out of such a small box[/quote]

Agreed.

Its not earth moving low end but my cabs handle a low B well and more importantly, you can hear the note.

Ive had small Schroeder cabs for a few years now and the one thing i will say is they really need to be tested in a gig environment.
Personally i don't like the tone they produce that much when im just playing on my own and sitting in front of the cab but at gigs, with a band playing i find they do a perfect job.
The mids are pronounced but they seem to die off a bit once out front. Ive walked to the back of many rooms at sound checks (with a radio system) and have always been surprised at how clear and smooth the tone is. A lot of people say these cabs have two tones. The on stage middy tone that helps you hear it above the bloody drummer and the out front tone, not so middy but sitting well in the mix.
I look on these cabs sort of like i do a P bass. Its not always a great tone solo'ed but in a band situation you can depend on it.

All IME of course. For some small cabs arent ideal no matter who makes them.

Ive no experience with Berg's so the Schroeder cab must be better ;-)

[Wil]

All I know is my 1212L sounds the business with a bit of bass and treble boost on my amp. I may well be creating a mid scoop EQ to counter a mid humped cab, but whatever sonic cookery is going on seems to yield good results.

[Nfes64]

All this has made me determined to sample both, even if it means traveling to Brighton where SHX are based. Anyone know of another place to sample the Schroeder (Warwickshire, Birmingham or London)? Like I said, the Bergs are just down the road from me, but I really do want to hear both!

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Nfes64' post='716664' date='Jan 18 2010, 03:14 PM']All this has made me determined to sample both, even if it means traveling to Brighton where SHX are based. Anyone know of another place to sample the Schroeder (Warwickshire, Birmingham or London)? Like I said, the Bergs are just down the road from me, but I really do want to hear both![/quote]

Mine are in storage between gigs, otherwise i would say pop round to mine.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Nfes64' post='716664' date='Jan 18 2010, 03:14 PM']All this has made me determined to sample both, even if it means traveling to Brighton where SHX are based. Anyone know of another place to sample the Schroeder (Warwickshire, Birmingham or London)? Like I said, the Bergs are just down the road from me, but I really do want to hear both![/quote]

Well I travelled from Brighton to BassDirect to sample Bergs, and it was worth it, stop whingeing

[Nfes64]

[quote name='51m0n' post='716670' date='Jan 18 2010, 03:19 PM']Well I travelled from Brighton to BassDirect to sample Bergs, and it was worth it, stop whingeing [/quote]

Now I have no excuse!

[lemmywinks]

Ideally you'll want to test them out in a gig situation, or at least go and see a bass player using one live. Even if you can try a Berg in a shop it's still worth giving it the once over at a gig, after all we're talking comparatively pricey gear

I loaned mine out to a BCer a while ago (he left his Aggie cab with me) so he could get an idea of how it would sound with him playing his gear in his band

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='716456' date='Jan 18 2010, 11:51 AM']+1....if you can buy used, do. Usually the owners will be very careful with them cabs due to the cost of them![/quote]

Indeed. for the first time ever i paid out for a cover for my 1212L.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='716707' date='Jan 18 2010, 03:56 PM']if you can try a Berg in a shop it's still worth giving it the once over at a gig[/quote]

+1. Until we start doing all our gigs in guitar shops, the stage is where the truth will be known...

[51m0n]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='716728' date='Jan 18 2010, 04:20 PM']+1. Until we start doing all our gigs in guitar shops, the stage is where the truth will be known...[/quote]

Nah mate, didnt anyone tell you Bergs are SO good that you only have to look at them to just know, you know?

/tongue_in_cheek

[dave_bass5]

Damn, now im thinking i need to check out a Berg or two :-(

[chris_b]

I must be living a charmed life. I buy my gear after listening to it in the shop and I haven't brought a dud rig yet!

[sk8]

i would add that there is something about a P Bass and 10's that seem to match very well.

My Berg rig sounds the same as it did in the shop, just louder! I have the same sound that i wanted and heard in the shop. Must have been lucky that the sound in my head suited the band

[thumperbob 2002]

I have two schroeder cabs- a 1212L and a 1515- both cabs sound great with my LM11 in isolation and sound massive with my Marshall VBA 400- ( goes down to 2 ohms- the LM doesnt. )

However I have a problem with the tweeter or crossover of the 1212L- strange sound coming from it on some notes- so at the mo` I dont use the horn- still sounds great!! Shaun at SHX is on with it- but I have been waiting far too long at 3 months since I reported it.

With the Mark bass amp you can counteract the mid hump by using the VPF filter a little. Not really a Reggae type sub cab but if you want to be heard and you want to hear what your bass actually sounds like I would recommend them.

I would agree the cabs sound miles better in a gig environment than in practice mode. Really the weight and size does it for me. I can get my Marshall, both cabs, two mackie SM450s, mixing desk- loads of stands, my bass and gig bag in a tiny mercedes A150!!

Bob

[51m0n]

When I went to find out what Berg rig would be 'the one' to bass direct, Mark positively encouraged me to try and cause structural damage to the place. It was staggeringly loud, and sounded completely unstrained, by which I mean the sound at high volume was not tonally very different from the sound at sensible volumes, I just couldnt hear myself talking/shouting so well.

That, to me is very indicative of whether or ot a rig will 'work' in a gig. To be honest he's moved premises since, so I dont know if he'd let people go quite so crazy now, I mean this was an hour of really unrelenting bashing of the cab I eventually took home with me. Enough to be as confident as I could possibly be.

All this talk of trying on the gig is all very well, but to be honest IME every gig venue presents its own set of issues and problems (for which there are well known strategies to help you deal), so trying on a single gig is no better than trying in a shop that will let you really have a bash at the gear at real world gig volume plus some more.

I need to hear a cab and amp not farting out at those volumes for a gig length of time, with all the stupid and weird techniques and sounds I might want to make. I need it to produce the same tone (within reason, things change at volume) at volume as it does ticking over. Otherwise its only good for either gigs or practice not both, and recording with it can be a pain. I also need to really like that tone (well duh).

Lastly I need to have confidence in the build quality/manufacture's after sales.

I very nearly went with Schroeder cabs, but I wanted something that was more than just an easy to hear on the gig solution to volume wars, achieved by building into the cab a prominent mid peak that I can get close enough to with eq should I need to. I wanted something that sounded right at all volumes. For me it was Berg all the way, and unusually on here it was a 410 rather than the also brilliant 2x210 solution.

Without going and trying it though, you cant make a decision. Worse still the human brain/ear combo is a funny old beast and nothing short of a real world A/B in a single place can really be a fair comparison, travelling the length of the country to try one then the other isnt a fair comaprison. I'd record them with my Zoom H4 and go away and have a good listen back to back if it was me (same amp settings, distance from cab etc, similar sized & shaped room, not to mention amp positioning all required to make it useful of course).

Its tough buying quality cabs!

[wateroftyne]

Of course it's helpful to play 'em loud in the shop... it'll certainly give you an idea.

What I'm saying is you'll only know for sure when the speakers have broken in, the drummer is thrashing away, and all the sound is being sucked up by the punters (hopefully). I know that's never going to happen before you put your money down, but I was just sayin'.

Not that it's happened on this thread, but I'm always wary of posts along the lines of 'OMG I tried this cab / amp / bass in the shop and it's the best thing EVER!'

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' post='717611' date='Jan 19 2010, 11:18 AM']All this talk of trying on the gig is all very well, but to be honest IME every gig venue presents its own set of issues and problems (for which there are well known strategies to help you deal), so trying on a single gig is no better than trying in a shop that will let you really have a bash at the gear at real world gig volume plus some more.

I
Its tough buying quality cabs![/quote]

I dont agree 100%.

what i meant was not to do with volume, but to do with getting some distance from the cab and with the bass mixed in with the band playing., Hearing what the audience will hear.
And i know for a fact my 1212L sounds different off stage, about 20ft away than it does when im standing close to it (as im sure a to of cabs do).

[51m0n]

When you get a long way from the cab you arent hearing the cab any more, you are hearing the cab + the venue. Its very very different from the cab, I couldnt agree more, but its different in every venue. Its also different in a single venue dependant on the number of punters, in fact its even different dependant on the ambient temperature in the room, and whether or not the curtains are closed over the windows. Lets not go into how your perception can change even as a result of how much water you've drunk through the day, or even your mood. But it all has a real effect.

You cannot control those factors, you can intelligently bias your sound to help cope in each individual situation.

As for speakers being broken in, a couple of gigs wont complete that process IME, 5 to 10 should though.

As for 'fitting in with the band', well thats the rub isnt it, I've spent 20 years sound engineering live and in the studio. I understand frequency mxing, eq, compression, etc. All of this is very relevant to letting me figure out if a cab will 'work' with a given bass/amp player/style etc. In fact my entire set of tone goals (to use KJungs excellent phrase) is based upon being heard in a band setting clearly. IME too much bass live is a nightmare situation, those dub guys can keep it, its a hellish thing to do well, and most venues cant deal with it. So I dont go there. Given that experience with mixing I can make a very very educated guess whether or not a cab's inherent tone is likely to work for me. I cant tell if it will work for you necessarily, but I can get close. The problem for a lot of us though, I think, is that what really works live, is not what we are used to hearing on a recording, and so many people are disappointed.

So I stick with what I said above, an experienced ear can tell if a cab will function in a gig situation if they can get to spend some quality time at serious volume with it. No problem. An experienced bassist/sound engineer can tell if an amp/cab combo is tweakable enough to cope with the vagueries of live sound to maximise the likelihood of always getting the best tone possible in a situation. No one at all can tell from one or two gigs if an amp/cab will always work everywhere. But I'll let you into a secret, NO amp/cab will sound great absolutely everywhere. Some venues are so acoustically shot that you are at best on a damage limitation course, at worst you may as well not be there, just smile and mime. Fortunately those are very rare occurancies IME (only twice I can think of in 20 years for me, both at the same venue).

[Protium]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='716334' date='Jan 18 2010, 09:04 AM']You hear this quite a lot about Schroeder cabs but it's not true. Usually people assume because they pump out a lot of low-mids that they are lacking in the bass, not so. There's loads of clean bass on tap, plus a ton of mids if you want them

Everyone who has heard/played through my rig comments on the amount of low-end coming out of such a small box[/quote]

+1, I actually have to cut bass on the amp EQ